Slott v. Spencer: Year One

[Revolutionary_Jack]

The problem is it doesn't really make sense to call BND "Slott's run", when you also have every other one of the braintrust inputting to craft the direction that era of the book took. Not to mention the long stretches between when his own personal issues came out (between 601 and 647, he only worked on 5 of those.)

It doesn't make sense to call the 102 issue Post-OMD era Brand New Day when it refers to the original arc and that was mostly a tagline than a story title. But that's how it's been grouped.

And Slott wrote most of the issues in the early part of that era.

In comparison, even though he still collaborated with Gage & others during Big Time and beyond, he was still the one paving the direction of the story and where it was going to take, and was overall his vision. It's basically like in television, with Slott going from just one of the writers, to the showrunner.

When you had second series that made sense since as a rule the writers of Spectacular/Web of Spider-Man/Peter Parker Spider-Man/FNSM and so on all worked in the status-quo decided upon by the writer of ASM. So if Bill Mantlo liked Mary Jane and Marv Wolfman broke her up well tough luck for Mantlo.

But when all of that got canceled and you had three monthly Spider-Man and later bi-monthly to take the place that distinction doesn't make sense. Slott was one of the showrunners post-BND, and co-author of that.

And since this is about the flagship title and we are comparing the first issues, then Slott's run begins with BND and not with Big Time. I don't see how that's arguable.

I do think in terms of both him and Spencer as writers, it is interesting looking at the fairly different ways in how they handle writing. Slott not only seems to love collaboration, but it also seems he works better when he doesn't have too much on his plate, which you can see currently with Whitley, Zub, and Simone being brought on to help with his Iron Man. Meanwhile Spencer is known for reaching Bendis levels of writing scripts super fast, first with how he handled the Cap and Secret Empire books, and now with Spider-Man (April has 4 issues written by him!) There's also the rumour that he had the first 20 issues all written before #1 was released, but I don't think that's ever been confirmed.

As a rule it takes a shorter time to write a comic than to pencil/ink/letter/color it, not including editing. So for a professional comic writer, writing multiple titles and issues, obviously it's hard work to do well, but it's not exceptional. Jack Kirby drawing a year's worth of Captain America comics as backlog before he went to fight World War II...now that's the "hold my beer/that's cute" bar.

Writing ASM twice a month is a little excessive since that's something that's been there since Post-OMD and as a rule it makes stories less economical and encourages more spinning of wheels. Since obviously you have to do events every year, every half-year but the build-up to that is done in more panels and captions and bubbles than before.

[Inversed]

And since this is about the flagship title and we are comparing the first issues, then Slott's run begins with BND and not with Big Time. I don't see how that's arguable.

Technically the poll and thread is about comparing the first years, not necessarily first issues. The first year of the BND era included 14 issues by him, all spread out at different times. In comparison, his first year of Big Time was 26 consecutive issues, and we know Spencer will be finishing his first year run with 24 consecutive issues, which is why it makes more sense to compare the latter two.

As a rule it takes a shorter time to write a comic than to pencil/ink/letter/color it, not including editing. So for a professional comic writer, writing multiple titles and issues, obviously it's hard work to do well, but it's not exceptional. Jack Kirby drawing a year's worth of Captain America comics as backlog before he went to fight World War II...now that's the "hold my beer/that's cute" bar.

Writing ASM twice a month is a little excessive since that's something that's been there since Post-OMD and as a rule it makes stories less economical and encourages more spinning of wheels. Since obviously you have to do events every year, every half-year but the build-up to that is done in more panels and captions and bubbles than before.

To give it some credit, I've never really felt like Spider-Man has had the problem with "decompression" like alot of other books have dealt with. We get more stories faster as opposed to one story dragged out way too long.

[David Walton]

I'm not sure how I'd compare Slott and Spencer's first years, suffice to say they both came out of the gate really strong.

I'm loving what Spencer is doing on ASM right now and look forward to a long, productive run. I think as good as it's been, it's really just getting started!!!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

To give it some credit, I've never really felt like Spider-Man has had the problem with "decompression" like alot of other books have dealt with. We get more stories faster as opposed to one story dragged out way too long.

In the case of HUNTED you have what seems like one event said to be completed over two months, I guess they want this to be done by the time the movie comes out. Though Symbiote Spider-Man is there as a Mysterio tie-in.

Neither Slott nor Spencer do decompression. That's one thing both have in common. The problems with Bi-Monthly stories is that you don't have much in the way for reader feedback to loop in. You have to write a trove of stories front-loaded and a single review or issue isn't allowed to sink in and take effect before the next one comes a short while later. But on the flip-side you also can't stretch out stories too long and you have to keep thinking in longer term. Like what was once a 6 issue event would now be a 12 issue event (i.e Maximum Carnage) and there's more of a risk that this would wear out the welcome than before. So you plan shorter ones.

Technically the poll and thread is about comparing the first years, not necessarily first issues. The first year of the BND era included 14 issues by him, all spread out at different times. In comparison, his first year of Big Time was 26 consecutive issues, and we know Spencer will be finishing his first year run with 24 consecutive issues, which is why it makes more sense to compare the latter two.

It's not an ideal fit in either case comparing Spencer and Slott's first years for a host of reasons. My feeling is that BND is Slott's first year and first issues. And he wasn't some minor writer but the most prominent, most prolific, and according to the web-head trust the de-facto team leader of the entire group. So Slott's first year isn't Big Time it's Brand New Day. And 14 issues is a pretty significant contribution. Peter David never had a run on ASM (he wrote more often and longer for Spectacular Spider-Man), but he wrote fill-in issues, one of which The Commuter Commuteth happens to be one of the all-time greatest Spider-Man stories and which directly inspired a major sequence in the Homecoming movie. So technically speaking as far as ASM goes, just the one issue is enough. JMD likewise never had a run on ASM but he wrote a few major and significant issues, include two of the issues with KLH (which was spread out in other titles) and he wrote ASM #400 and a few others.

I feel we are pampering Slott too much by insisting that his unimpeded 26 issue run on Big Time is his first real story and not the ones he wrote during BND where he still wrote more than other writers but boo-hoo had to collaborate and so on.

[Spidercide]

Remember how in Slott’s first issue he actively mocked any fans who wanted the main, logical, if this isn’t the status quo of the book the book actively doesn’t make sense, ship to come back? Remember how Spencer immediately reinstituted that?

Remember how Slott in his first year gave Peter a dream job that wasn’t very realistic because of the hyper science and because he got flexi hours thus removing much tension from the job and it was a rip-off of Tri-Corp anyway...and it made it easy for him to whip up gadgets to resolve plots but also contrived whenever he didn’t just do that even though a lot of the time? Remember how in his first year Spencer removed Peter’s cushy job he was unqualified for and by rights shouldn’t have had because of the diploma he didn’t earn but accepted regardless so now Peter is more relatably cash strapped and down to Earth in looking to return to his roots and truly finish his education?

Remember how Slott decided to dust off a classic and beloved villain the Hobgoblin in his first year then immediately kill them off and replace them with a clearly inferior substitutute? Remember how Spencer dusted off C and D list villains, but either humanized them or made great use of them for the purposes of humour and spun a bold new interesting angle on classic foes like Kingpin, Mysterio, Scorpion, et al?

Remember how Slott had a conversation actively designed to make Carlie Cooper look smart and a better match for Peter than the more popular actually better match for him Mary Jane by insulting the latter’s intelligence? Remember how Spencer reintroduced Carlie, didn’t belittle her, wrote her sympathetically but still managed to convey that MJ was a better fit for Peter in the process?

Remember how some of the earliest appearences of Felicia in Slott’s first year were her in a milk bath or posing with her ass in the air? Remember how Spencer in just 3 issues fixed most everything broken about Black Cat since 2009, a lot of which was directly Slott’s fault?

Remember how Slott up to 16 issues which were team ups or gave spotlight moments to other heroes who aren’t indigenous to Spider-Man’s cast of villains, supporting characters or allies but from other Marvel editorial houses and books? Remember how Spencer only really did that in 4 issues and it was done specifically to convey how Spider-Man doesn’t need them and in no way stole the spotlight from him at all?

Remember when Slott in his first year had Betty Brant literally assaulted and then after this had Aunt May say she was disappointed in Peter for abandoning her the night Uncle Ben died when he was 15? Remember when Spencer did NOTHING as insulting or stupid as that and only had May disappointed in Peter because he lied about a diploma he didn’t earn which slott established?

Remember how Slott trotted out a continuity porn dream issue intended to explore Peter’s psyche but it failed because it pretened he’d never met his parents, knew Marla Jameson really well, cared more about her and his parents’ death’s than Ben Reilly’s even though Ben was his brother and that he’s been super guilt ridden about killing Charlie even though that was the first time she was mentioned since 1987? Remember how Spencer in that one trivia night issue proved he actually knew Spider-Man continuity properly and then in other issues, more importantly, he UNDERSTOOD it instead of that dream bullshit?

Remember how Slott introduced the new villain Massacre who was played up as supposedly the most sadistic killer in Spider-Man ever even though Carnage is an iconic character? Remember how Spencer’s new villain showed up and made Kingpin kneel like a wimp and was actually frightening?

Remember how Slott introduced no less than 3 new costumes in his first year because gimmick gotta gimmick and apparently he secretly always wanted to write Iron Man? Remember how Spencer made Spider-Man interesting in just his regular ass outfit?

Remember how Slott did Spider Island a story that undermined Spider-Man by showcasing how easily everyone was able to use the abilities he had his whole life? Remember how Spencer in issue #1 had every hero out for a crisis and then had Spider-Man solo solve it very easily?

Remember when Slott made a big deal out of ‘NO 1 DIEz!!!!!!!11111!!!!’ even though that was Spider-Man’s entire philosophy since his debut but he wasn’t so childish about it as to think he could actually save everyone and really why is the death of Marla Jameson affecting him this deeply when other people he’s actually given more of a damn to not moved him this much? Remember when Spencer wasn’t that abjectly incompetent?


Remember when Dan Slott systemically wrote Peter as an out of character manchild because he got into Spider-Man in the early 1970s and apparently decided his characterization had never evolved beyond that point but he clearly didn’t even understand it back then? Remember when Spencer didn’t do that at all and actually wrote Peter in character because he bothered to do some research?


Gee...I wonder who had a better first year...

[WebSlingWonder]

Remember how in Slott’s first issue he actively mocked any fans who wanted the main, logical, if this isn’t the status quo of the book the book actively doesn’t make sense, ship to come back? Remember how Spencer immediately reinstituted that?

Remember how Slott in his first year gave Peter a dream job that wasn’t very realistic because of the hyper science and because he got flexi hours thus removing much tension from the job and it was a rip-off of Tri-Corp anyway...and it made it easy for him to whip up gadgets to resolve plots but also contrived whenever he didn’t just do that even though a lot of the time? Remember how in his first year Spencer removed Peter’s cushy job he was unqualified for and by rights shouldn’t have had because of the diploma he didn’t earn but accepted regardless so now Peter is more relatably cash strapped and down to Earth in looking to return to his roots and truly finish his education?

Remember how Slott decided to dust off a classic and beloved villain the Hobgoblin in his first year then immediately kill them off and replace them with a clearly inferior substitutute? Remember how Spencer dusted off C and D list villains, but either humanized them or made great use of them for the purposes of humour and spun a bold new interesting angle on classic foes like Kingpin, Mysterio, Scorpion, et al?

Remember how Slott had a conversation actively designed to make Carlie Cooper look smart and a better match for Peter than the more popular actually better match for him Mary Jane by insulting the latter’s intelligence? Remember how Spencer reintroduced Carlie, didn’t belittle her, wrote her sympathetically but still managed to convey that MJ was a better fit for Peter in the process?

Remember how some of the earliest appearences of Felicia in Slott’s first year were her in a milk bath or posing with her ass in the air? Remember how Spencer in just 3 issues fixed most everything broken about Black Cat since 2009, a lot of which was directly Slott’s fault?

Remember how Slott up to 16 issues which were team ups or gave spotlight moments to other heroes who aren’t indigenous to Spider-Man’s cast of villains, supporting characters or allies but from other Marvel editorial houses and books? Remember how Spencer only really did that in 4 issues and it was done specifically to convey how Spider-Man doesn’t need them and in no way stole the spotlight from him at all?

Remember when Slott in his first year had Betty Brant literally assaulted and then after this had Aunt May say she was disappointed in Peter for abandoning her the night Uncle Ben died when he was 15? Remember when Spencer did NOTHING as insulting or stupid as that and only had May disappointed in Peter because he lied about a diploma he didn’t earn which slott established?

Remember how Slott trotted out a continuity porn dream issue intended to explore Peter’s psyche but it failed because it pretened he’d never met his parents, knew Marla Jameson really well, cared more about her and his parents’ death’s than Ben Reilly’s even though Ben was his brother and that he’s been super guilt ridden about killing Charlie even though that was the first time she was mentioned since 1987? Remember how Spencer in that one trivia night issue proved he actually knew Spider-Man continuity properly and then in other issues, more importantly, he UNDERSTOOD it instead of that dream bullshit?

Remember how Slott introduced the new villain Massacre who was played up as supposedly the most sadistic killer in Spider-Man ever even though Carnage is an iconic character? Remember how Spencer’s new villain showed up and made Kingpin kneel like a wimp and was actually frightening?

Remember how Slott introduced no less than 3 new costumes in his first year because gimmick gotta gimmick and apparently he secretly always wanted to write Iron Man? Remember how Spencer made Spider-Man interesting in just his regular ass outfit?

Remember how Slott did Spider Island a story that undermined Spider-Man by showcasing how easily everyone was able to use the abilities he had his whole life? Remember how Spencer in issue #1 had every hero out for a crisis and then had Spider-Man solo solve it very easily?

Remember when Slott made a big deal out of ‘NO 1 DIEz!!!!!!!11111!!!!’ even though that was Spider-Man’s entire philosophy since his debut but he wasn’t so childish about it as to think he could actually save everyone and really why is the death of Marla Jameson affecting him this deeply when other people he’s actually given more of a damn to not moved him this much? Remember when Spencer wasn’t that abjectly incompetent?


Remember when Dan Slott systemically wrote Peter as an out of character manchild because he got into Spider-Man in the early 1970s and apparently decided his characterization had never evolved beyond that point but he clearly didn’t even understand it back then? Remember when Spencer didn’t do that at all and actually wrote Peter in character because he bothered to do some research?


Gee...I wonder who had a better first year...

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
But in all seriousness, I gotta agree.

[MajorHoy]

. . . Remember how Slott had a conversation actively designed to make Carlie Cooper look smart and a better match for Peter than the more popular actually better match for him Mary Jane by insulting the latter’s intelligence? Remember how Spencer reintroduced Carlie, didn’t belittle her, wrote her sympathetically but still managed to convey that MJ was a better fit for Peter in the process?

About Slott and the MJ-thing, would Marvel have allowed Peter and MJ to get back together that soon (2010) after "One More Day" even if Slott clearly wanted to do that?

[Miles To Go]

About Slott and the MJ-thing, would Marvel have allowed Peter and MJ to get back together that soon (2010) after "One More Day" even if Slott clearly wanted to do that?

Slott wanted the marriage back, not just Peter and MJ dating. He's on record as saying the fun just is'nt there if they aren't married, hence why he avoided it for most of the run.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Slott wanted the marriage back, not just Peter and MJ dating. He's on record as saying the fun just is'nt there if they aren't married, hence why he avoided it for most of the run.

Where is this record? And where did he say this?

About Slott and the MJ-thing, would Marvel have allowed Peter and MJ to get back together that soon (2010) after "One More Day" even if Slott clearly wanted to do that?

According to Joey Q, it was never his intent to break them for good or say they won't have a relationship in the future. It was the writers who made the call to do that. Of course that might be his way to pass the buck on to them. And you know after 20 years of them married having them in a relationship so soon would only bring calls as to why the two aren't married anyway. And BND they had to justify the break-up of the marriage with stories they could only tell with the single Spider-man and that tainted that run with a degree of self-consciousness that in my view, and also Erik Larsen's, remains a constant problem with Post-OMD Spider-Man.

In publication terms the ten years since OMD is the longest Peter and MJ haven't been in a relationship since they started dating. Marv Wolfman broke them up in 1980 with that ham-fisted marriage proposal he introduced to break them up and make MJ look bad because he's a sexist (and cf, Terra in The Judas Contract, if you don't believe me). And then they broke up in #192. And then you had a seven year gap before Peter and MJ hooked up again and went straight to marriage after a second ham-fisted proposal, exactly 100 issues later in #292, and then they were married for 20 years. On the plus side, until Mary Jane, Peter never repeated relationships. When he broke up with Betty Brant, that was it (except for that issue in Wolfman's run where he strongly hinted that a married Betty cheated on Ned with Peter). Gwen Stacy died. The problem with Mary Jane is that she was always too big and popular even back then. And they wrote her out of the books for some 40 issues, fans still wanted her back and Roger Stern did that, and he started outlining the backstory that made her into a more complex figure. As did Wolfman ironically (he was the one who stated that MJ's parents were divorced). So Peter and MJ are on-and-off and have had three relationships in 616. So while Slott could have kept them apart, he did so for an unusually long time, and whenever he teased the relationship, he always made MJ look bad or worse, which is a cheap trick. And an old one.

In Slott's defense, in his final years, RYV which he launched as a mini, and which became a running series (where Issue #14 outsold his ASM issues that month) might have justified keeping them apart since bringing Peter and MJ together would steal thunder from that series. And indeed, RYV wound up when Spencer began his run.

Slott's other problem was that he kept misrepresenting and misinforming people about MJ's character. Like he talked about how MJ's "weepy" backstory was introduced after the marriage and that made her stop being the Lee-Romita party girl. Except it wasn't done with the marriage. It was Gerry Conway who made MJ into a more softer, compassionate figure in his run. And he did that without alluding to her backstory and past. Then it was Wolfman who said her parents were divorced, it was Roger Stern in The Daydreamers who introduced her sister Gayle, and Defalco who finally put all that together in ASM #259 and basically made her into the most important supporting character in Spider-Man. Slott was acting as if Parallel Lives came out and explained everything when all it did was build on the work of earlier writers.

[Miles To Go]

Where is this record? And where did he say this?

Comicvine video interview in 2015 when he was promoting Renew Your Vows.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Comicvine video interview in 2015 when he was promoting Renew Your Vows.

I found it I believe.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/video...an-/2300-2904/

"Writing MJ in Brand New Day and in Big Time and Superior. It's very much the relationship that can't go anywhere. Because we always know that they're not getting married. If Marvel went through all this trouble to get them unmarried, you as a fan know they're not gonna get married. So whenever they're together, it's "here's a relationship that can't go anywhere" and that's not fun. It could be with anyone else. But now it's Secret Wars (2015)''...and he's married again. It kind of feels like writing Mary Jane without limits."

-- Comicvine, C2E2 2015: Dan Slott (Part 1) ''The Amazing Spider-Man - Renew Your Vows'', by Tony 'G-Man' Guerrero | Apr. 28, 2015 9:33 am. Timestamp 03:00 -- 04:15.

What's weird about this line is "it can be with anyone else" as if Marvel seriously is okay with Peter marrying anybody other than MJ which seems even more unbelievable. I guess he's seeing it more in sense of suspense and reader expectations but then OMD killed all suspense since it's about spinning the wheels.

[Inversed]

The "It could be with anyone else" also kind of explains his complete disinterest in writing Spider-Man in relationships, considering how much of a non-entity each of the characters he paired up with him ended up being.

Which is still a shame considering all of his other books feature some kind of pretty strong relationship at the centre of it, Otto & Anna, Silver Surfer & Dawn, Tony & Janet, and Ben & Alicia.

[Celgress]

I found it I believe.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/video...an-/2300-2904/

"Writing MJ in Brand New Day and in Big Time and Superior. It's very much the relationship that can't go anywhere. Because we always know that they're not getting married. If Marvel went through all this trouble to get them unmarried, you as a fan know they're not gonna get married. So whenever they're together, it's "here's a relationship that can't go anywhere" and that's not fun. It could be with anyone else. But now it's Secret Wars (2015)''...and he's married again. It kind of feels like writing Mary Jane without limits."

Bingo, bingo, freakin' bingo - This is exactly what I've been saying since OMD happened, only I apply it to ALL potential Spidey love interests. There is ABSOLUTELY NO POINT becoming emotionally invested in a Peter Parker relationship moving forward as there is a hard limit that can NEVER be surpassed regardless of pairing popularity. Those in charge of Marvel should not have made their negative stance regarding any marriage involving the character public (i.e. "aging the character") and the above is why.

PS Vindication feels so damn good.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Spectacular Spider-Man was cancelled in 1998. The second series ran from 2003-2005.

Was just about to point this out myself. Spectacular and Sensational were axed in 1998. The titles were reduced to Amazing and Peter Parker. Spectacular was relaunched in 2003. It replaced Peter Parker. Right down to Paul Jenkins and Humberto Ramos helming the book.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Was just about to point this out myself. Spectacular and Sensational were axed in 1998. The titles were reduced to Amazing and Peter Parker. Spectacular was relaunched in 2003. It replaced Peter Parker. Right down to Paul Jenkins and Humberto Ramos helming the book.

Technically one could see Peter Parker: Spider-Man as Spectacular by another name.

When it was launched in 1976, the full title was Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man (which was revived when Zdarsky revived it). It became just Spectacular Spider-Man around issue #138 or #139. I think it was PAD who wrote that official new transition.

In either case, there has always been a second series published continuously since 1976 until 2008. That much is inarguable.