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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I think the five 'generations' of heroes the DCU has is just fine because it allows for everyone to be at different points in their lives, but without the marquee heroes being too old.

    The JSAers are perpetually in their 50s thanks to magical face-lifts and/or time shenanigans.

    The founding JLAers are similarly always in their physical prime of their thirties.

    The original Teen Titans will never age out of their twenties, the Young Justice kids will stick to being in their late teens while Damian's current crop of Teen Titans will be in be in their early teens
    I'd be more than cool with this set-up, if you was in charge. But not every generation gets their due consistently, or long term. I feel bad that so many characters get introduced, then sent to limbo only to be brought back as canon fodder.

    It seems like the Grayson & Drake generations have hit a glass ceiling.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony Shaw View Post
    .

    It seems like the Grayson & Drake generations have hit a glass ceiling.
    In the mainline continuity, that's always going to be the case because those characters are designed to be the younger generation. In the same way that Archie will always be a high school student, these guys can't ever grow up because their mentors are always going to be in their physical prime.

    Had DC rebooted differently by spinning off the old Pre-Flashpoint continuity as its own Earth wherein Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman sacrificed themselves to save the Multiverse but were reborn on a newborn Earth, I think the New 52 would have worked a little better.

    Dick Grayson's generation could continue to grow up and take over as the primary heroes of this Earth, building up to an annual crossover event in which they'd team-up with Morrison's t-shirt and jeans Superman, Snyder's Zero Year Batman and Azzarello's demigod Wonder Woman.

    This would have freed up the New 52 to be a true reboot, but also kept the older fans happy by devoting a few titles to the older continuity. Geoff Johns could finish of his run on Green Lantern without a hitch, just as Morrison could finish Batman Incorporated by setting it prior to Batman's death as his last great adventure.

  3. #48

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    I've sometimes thought that the "New 52" would have worked best if it had been set after "timeskip" that retconed Final Crisis into an event where much of OG JLA (Kal-El, Diana, Bruce, J'onn...) were KIA against Darkseid and the New JL was anchored by either Dick or Tim as Batman, Conner & Cassie as Superman and Wonder Woman and Kyle as GL initally. Maybe with a Raven in the MM/Zatanna role and of course Cyborg as Mission Support. That would have gone a long way to allowing them to do many of the stories that they did do, but in a way that respected what came before and didn'tr alienate their core base.

    Of course, RW marketing diktats mean that they were never going to do it that way...

  4. #49
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    Btw. is there in the current multi verse a Earth were the original JL-members died or retired?

    I remember that during countdown, there was a Earth-15 where Jason Todd was Batman, Donna Wonder Woman and Kyle the main Green Lantern.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Btw. is there in the current multi verse a Earth were the original JL-members died or retired?

    I remember that during countdown, there was a Earth-15 where Jason Todd was Batman, Donna Wonder Woman and Kyle the main Green Lantern.
    Pre-multiversity. Prime blew it up because the entire point of Prime was he hated anything that wasn't silver age stuff and destroyed it (well, the Earth itself).

    Funny how he used to be a villain.

    Multiversity kind of stuck with that idea, but instead of just the Earth being dead, the entire universe is dead and there's a super special GL battery there.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    In the mainline continuity, that's always going to be the case because those characters are designed to be the younger generation. In the same way that Archie will always be a high school student, these guys can't ever grow up because their mentors are always going to be in their physical prime.

    Had DC rebooted differently by spinning off the old Pre-Flashpoint continuity as its own Earth wherein Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman sacrificed themselves to save the Multiverse but were reborn on a newborn Earth, I think the New 52 would have worked a little better.

    Dick Grayson's generation could continue to grow up and take over as the primary heroes of this Earth, building up to an annual crossover event in which they'd team-up with Morrison's t-shirt and jeans Superman, Snyder's Zero Year Batman and Azzarello's demigod Wonder Woman.

    This would have freed up the New 52 to be a true reboot, but also kept the older fans happy by devoting a few titles to the older continuity. Geoff Johns could finish of his run on Green Lantern without a hitch, just as Morrison could finish Batman Incorporated by setting it prior to Batman's death as his last great adventure.
    I want to expand on the glass ceiling comment. In no way do I want Dick & Tim's crews to permanently replace the silver age guys. What I do want is DC to have a better balance. Each generation should have their own niche. The Titan/YJ teams should have creative teams telling the best stories they can without repeating past stories, or being depicted as not ready for prime time players. Or, more of the NTT should have promoted to JL membership (without replacing mentors). It would have been nice to see the now adult Titans working side-by-side with their "big homies" for some storylines. I still get a kick of the story where Dick, as Batman, was giving Hal Jordan orders. Dick & Hal interacting over two years of story-telling would have been a fun read, imo. Watching Victor Stone & Hawkman work together, the extremes of technology & archaic weaponry, would have been great, too. A lot of great interpersonal stories could be mined from that. I was really disappointed with how James Robinson's JLA series turned out.

    The 1980's had great stories for the NTT, JL, Legion, and JSA. I'm not sure why DC can't go back to that. My bronze age bias might be showing.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slimybug View Post
    Source? We gotta have ISSUE NAMES, man, ISSUE NAMES!

    Uh, now I'm gonna have to dig out Year One and Man of Steel again, but do you have any concrete examples you can think of of the others?
    Here're a few panels from an early issue of The New Teen Titans just before Dick became Nightwing. Pay particularly close attention to the bottom left panel:



    Now if you dig out and read Robin Year One by Chuck Dixon, it explicitly states that he was in middle/junior high school at the time, meaning in all likelihood he was probably between 12-14 years old.

    Now here's what was an 'official' timeline that was printed in the final issue of Zero Hour in the early '90s:



    If you take notice, Clark's rocket landed on Earth from Krypton 33 years ago and Bruce's parents were killed 25 years ago, which clearly contradicts Batman Year One, where it's stated that Bruce was 25 when he returned from his travels abroad:



    The thing is about timelines is that few writers actually enjoy adhering to them, and I can't say I necessarily blame them seeing as they kind of tie their hands. Readers love them, but yeah, not so much the other way around. I mean, how do you reconcile Superman celebrating 25 Christmas' as an adult between the years 1986 and 2011 when he's only supposed to be in his 30s?
    Last edited by phonogram12; 02-06-2019 at 10:13 AM.
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  8. #53
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    Age is just one of those things you have to roughly ballpark and then ignore.

    In my head, the "League" generation are somewhere between mid-late 30's, with Ollie, Clark, and Bruce pushing closer to 40, and Ollie maybe just past it.

    The "Titans" generation is mid-20's, with Beast Boy at the youngest end, somewhere around 23, and the oldest (Donna?) no older than 27.

    The "Young Justice" generation are all between 15-19.

    The "JSA" are, of course, all close to a 100 years old, look like they're in their 50's-60's, and are as physically fit as someone nearly half that age.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Now if you dig out and read Robin Year One by Chuck Dixon, it explicitly states that he was in middle/junior high school at the time, meaning in all likelihood he was probably between 12-14 years old.
    The thing with Dick is that basically Marv Wolfman (and later Devin Grayson) were the only ones that were using age 8,while most of the Batman writers made him older. IIRC even Marv Wolfman made him in Batman Year 3 10 or 11 when stated as Robin. (And seriously Dick becoming Robin at age 8 would really screw up the timeline and age up Batman massivly)

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Bruce's parents were killed 25 years ago, which clearly contradicts Batman Year One, where it's stated that Bruce was 25 when he returned from his travels abroad
    That's a relativity small contradiction. If he was 8 when his parents died 25 years ago, he would be 33 and if he became Batman 10 years ago he would be 35.
    On top of that the age he was when his parents died actually varies between 6 and 12 in the comics depending on the writer.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The thing with Dick is that basically Marv Wolfman (and later Devin Grayson) were the only ones that were using age 8,while most of the Batman writers made him older. IIRC even Marv Wolfman made him in Batman Year 3 10 or 11 when stated as Robin. (And seriously Dick becoming Robin at age 8 would really screw up the timeline and age up Batman massivly)
    Yep. My point exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    That's a relativity small contradiction. If he was 8 when his parents died 25 years ago, he would be 33 and if he became Batman 10 years ago he would be 35.
    On top of that the age he was when his parents died actually varies between 6 and 12 in the comics depending on the writer.
    Can I ask you how you did the math on this one? At the time of this printing, the timeline indicates that presently he would have been 33 and ten years ago he would've been 23 when when he became Batman. Just not sure where you got the 35 from (not that comic book timelines ever make a lick of sense, that is). This said, I do agree that it is small, but a year or so can contain a whole load of events.
    Last edited by phonogram12; 02-06-2019 at 12:13 PM.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Can I ask you how you did the math on this one? At the time of this printing, the timeline indicates that presently he would have been 33 and ten years ago he would've been 23 when when he became Batman. Just not sure where you got the 35 from (not that comic book timelines ever make a lick of sense, that is). This said, I do agree that it is small, but a year or so can contain a whole load of events.
    If I didn't overlooked something the time line doesn't really give an age, only that his parents died 25 years ago and that he became Batman 10 year ago. And I just took the two most common ages for this which are afaik that he was 8 when his parents died and 25 when he became Batman.

    Btw. the his parents died 25 years ago, was really default for a long period of time, they used it was afaik mentioned the first time in Batman Special #1 (1984), than we had the post crisis origin story of Jason, that was also set at the 25th anniversary of their death, it is mentioned in the Zero Year Timeline, in during "Murderer" in Batman #599 (from 2002) it is said that his parents died "nearly 25 years ago", and in Justice League of America Vol. 2 #25 (from 2008) it is also said that they "died over 25 years ago". And it might also be mentioned in a few other issues. So Bruce parents death happened basically during the entire pre flashpoint continuity 25 years ago.

  12. #57
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The thing with Dick is that basically Marv Wolfman (and later Devin Grayson) were the only ones that were using age 8,while most of the Batman writers made him older. IIRC even Marv Wolfman made him in Batman Year 3 10 or 11 when stated as Robin. (And seriously Dick becoming Robin at age 8 would really screw up the timeline and age up Batman massivly)
    I think he was always either 8 or 9 when he became Robin pre-COIE, FWIW.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Age is just one of those things you have to roughly ballpark and then ignore.

    In my head, the "League" generation are somewhere between mid-late 30's, with Ollie, Clark, and Bruce pushing closer to 40, and Ollie maybe just past it.

    The "Titans" generation is mid-20's, with Beast Boy at the youngest end, somewhere around 23, and the oldest (Donna?) no older than 27.

    The "Young Justice" generation are all between 15-19.

    The "JSA" are, of course, all close to a 100 years old, look like they're in their 50's-60's, and are as physically fit as someone nearly half that age.
    This works for me. Although, I can't help but think that age is probably just a number for Clark.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I think he was always either 8 or 9 when he became Robin pre-COIE, FWIW.
    This age was as far as I can tell really the first time given in New Teen Titans.

    The original golden age comics make no clear indication about his age, later comics (from the Bronze Age) set is Birthday in 1928, which would make him 12 when he became Robin in 1940. And in the silver/bronze age retelling of his origin in Batman #213 he said to be a teenager.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    This age was as far as I can tell really the first time given in New Teen Titans.

    The original golden age comics make no clear indication about his age, later comics (from the Bronze Age) set is Birthday in 1928, which would make him 12 when he became Robin in 1940. And in the silver/bronze age retelling of his origin in Batman #213 he said to be a teenager.
    I'm probably confusing Dick with the age Bruce was when his parents died and when Clark became Superboy.
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