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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    I don't really get why people keep referring to Shazam as better suited to magic, he's not anymore of a spellcaster than Wonder Woman is.

    My take on Shazam, and the most recent version of him, is he and the Shazamily are far more dependent on magic as fuel for their transformation and powers than a character like Wonder Woman, or Superman, or Aquaman for that matter.

    It’ll be interesting to see in the new series how they depict the magic that allows them their physical powers and other abilities, versus the powers of the Wizard or Doctor Sivana’s magical detection vision or Shazam’s abilities to wield the magical lightning as a destructive force. There’s simply a lot we don’t know yet about magic as a physicality intensifier versus a spellcaster like Klarion, Zatanna, Wotan, Doctor Fate, Morgan le Fay, John Constantine, etc.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveAtThee View Post
    Seeing as Diana is a character rooted in supernatural mythology with the Greek pantheon she definitely should have a mystical aspect to her universe (similar to Asgardians with magic).

    I can see the gods having their mystical and magical abilities, but the command of sorcery and witchcraft and eldritch energies seems better suited to Circe, Medea, Dark Angel, etc. versus Diana, excluding magical items or weapons laying around that anyone, like Diana, might be able to utilize.

    Like Thor, Diana’s adept and attuned to using a magical tool/weapon, but, similarly to Thor, she’s not harnessed magical abilities like the Enchantress or Karnilla or the Enchantress’s little sister, whose name I’m forgetting.
    Last edited by WonderScott; 01-19-2019 at 09:10 PM.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmiMizuno View Post
    I'm curious we have seen some amazons have magically abilities. So I wouldn't mean some amazons being magically users. I mean with certain creatures they have found I don't mind some of them being magically users. I mean if Diana were to have any magically abilities what would it be? I do think it should be something simply. We do know Diana does have a resistance to magic. That while yes she can be killed it's going to take a lot to kill her.

    I will say this, no one should be able to turn Diana back into clay

    I don’t see Diana as having any extra magical resistance than someone like Superman, in the fact that they are incredibly powerful and can take tremendous damage physically (and sometimes mentally), whether it’s caused by a physical, telepathic, electrical, magical, etc. forces and they attempt to resist it as best they can.

    My main question is why give Wonder Woman magical abilities on top of her already formidable and varied set of powers? She’s already nigh unstoppable compared to many characters... (I enjoy that magic is something she needs to be wary and concerned about.)

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    I think a lot of this comes down to both storytelling choices and the way magic is depicted.

    Tynion went into this a bit in the opening of JLD, with how the other characters in the magic corner of DC see Diana as apart from them. The type of stories where writers put characters like John Constantine or Swamp Thing or Nightmaster are different (or at least used to be different) from the stories writers put Diana in.

    Then you have the spellcasting stuff. I don't see Diana as a spellcaster like Zatanna or even John Constantine, but I think she can be depicted as a magic user where the magic is grounded in small magics, prayer, and protection. The reason she is a hard target for magics is partly because of who she is, partly because of the lasso of truth (as discussed in A League of One), but partly also because she as part of her daily life regularly performs protective rituals in various forms. A quick invocation to Hecate when she crosses doorways, a simple sacrifice to Hestia whenever she has prepared food, and so on. Now, she might not think of it as magic, but I see it as an important part of what makes Wonder Woman so powerful.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I think a lot of this comes down to both storytelling choices and the way magic is depicted.

    Tynion went into this a bit in the opening of JLD, with how the other characters in the magic corner of DC see Diana as apart from them. The type of stories where writers put characters like John Constantine or Swamp Thing or Nightmaster are different (or at least used to be different) from the stories writers put Diana in.

    Then you have the spellcasting stuff. I don't see Diana as a spellcaster like Zatanna or even John Constantine, but I think she can be depicted as a magic user where the magic is grounded in small magics, prayer, and protection. The reason she is a hard target for magics is partly because of who she is, partly because of the lasso of truth (as discussed in A League of One), but partly also because she as part of her daily life regularly performs protective rituals in various forms. A quick invocation to Hecate when she crosses doorways, a simple sacrifice to Hestia whenever she has prepared food, and so on. Now, she might not think of it as magic, but I see it as an important part of what makes Wonder Woman so powerful.
    One thing this discussion makes me long for are some rules about the magic system(s) in the DCU. How they might differentiate themselves from one another and the different types and disciplines and their limitations. Just some simple parameters would suffice describing the differences between divine, natural, demonic, Homo Magi, and other types of magic weilded by Doctor Fate, Phantom Stranger, Morgan le Fay, Jinx, etc.

  6. #21
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    My take on Shazam, and the most recent version of him, is he and the Shazamily are far more dependent on magic as fuel for their transformation and powers than a character like Wonder Woman, or Superman, or Aquaman for that matter.

    It’ll be interesting to see in the new series how they depict the magic that allows them their physical powers and other abilities, versus the powers of the Wizard or Doctor Sivana’s magical detection vision or Shazam’s abilities to wield the magical lightning as a destructive force. There’s simply a lot we don’t know yet about magic as a physicality intensifier versus a spellcaster like Klarion, Zatanna, Wotan, Doctor Fate, Morgan le Fay, John Constantine, etc.
    But Superman doesn't have magic, his powers are based on alien biology, as is Aquaman, so those comparisons don't work. Wonder Woman's powers are derived from the gods, which are magical. And actually, Shazam's powers come from the gods too!

  7. #22
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I don’t see Diana as having any extra magical resistance than someone like Superman, in the fact that they are incredibly powerful and can take tremendous damage physically (and sometimes mentally), whether it’s caused by a physical, telepathic, electrical, magical, etc. forces and they attempt to resist it as best they can.

    My main question is why give Wonder Woman magical abilities on top of her already formidable and varied set of powers? She’s already nigh unstoppable compared to many characters... (I enjoy that magic is something she needs to be wary and concerned about.)
    But she does have magical abilities - she can fly, she has incredible strength, she can talk to animals...

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    But Superman doesn't have magic, his powers are based on alien biology, as is Aquaman, so those comparisons don't work. Wonder Woman's powers are derived from the gods, which are magical. And actually, Shazam's powers come from the gods too!
    All I’m saying is that the gifts Diana received or her genetics from Zeus changed her biology into what it is. Unlike Shazam, she doesn’t require magic to become Wonder Woman or maintain her abilities.

    Someone like Circe could just as easily cast spells to weaken Superman and make him vulnerable as she could Diana.

    It’s a fine line I’m walking, but I don’t see Diana’s strength as magical, but physical, due to her genetics with Zeus or the gifts she was given when her body was transmuted from clay to flesh and blood.

  9. #24
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I don’t see Diana as having any extra magical resistance than someone like Superman, in the fact that they are incredibly powerful and can take tremendous damage physically (and sometimes mentally), whether it’s caused by a physical, telepathic, electrical, magical, etc. forces and they attempt to resist it as best they can.

    My main question is why give Wonder Woman magical abilities on top of her already formidable and varied set of powers? She’s already nigh unstoppable compared to many characters... (I enjoy that magic is something she needs to be wary and concerned about.)
    Because a chip of a bullet that ricochets off Superman's chest put her in mortal danger?

    Diana can be injured/killed by 'sharp objects' throughout DC, so yeah, I think magic resistance should help differentiate her from Superman and offset that ridiculous weakness.

    They did away with the color yellow for GL, he doesn't need a battery anymore and he can do anything he wills into existence. What's his weakness?

    Aquaman no longer suffers for lack of water, is bullet-proof/rocket proof and has had his strength increased exponentially since nu52. What's his weakness?

    In theory, Diana is 'nigh unstoppable,' but in actuality, the number of times she's been taken down by something stupid is off the charts

  10. #25
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    All I’m saying is that the gifts Diana received or her genetics from Zeus changed her biology into what it is. Unlike Shazam, she doesn’t require magic to become Wonder Woman or maintain her abilities.

    Someone like Circe could just as easily cast spells to weaken Superman and make him vulnerable as she could Diana.

    It’s a fine line I’m walking, but I don’t see Diana’s strength as magical, but physical, due to her genetics with Zeus or the gifts she was given when her body was transmuted from clay to flesh and blood.
    Diana's powers have been established as given by the gods, and they've been taken away from her before. And sorcerers have cast spells to make Shazam weaker and make him vulnerable. And I don't think Zeus runs on genetics anyways.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    All I’m saying is that the gifts Diana received or her genetics from Zeus changed her biology into what it is. Unlike Shazam, she doesn’t require magic to become Wonder Woman or maintain her abilities.

    Someone like Circe could just as easily cast spells to weaken Superman and make him vulnerable as she could Diana.

    It’s a fine line I’m walking, but I don’t see Diana’s strength as magical, but physical, due to her genetics with Zeus or the gifts she was given when her body was transmuted from clay to flesh and blood.
    I think you might be making the mistake that magical abilities cannot be passed through genetics. That's not the case in the DCU as seen with Homo Magi. Diana does have magic in her blood. It just manifests in things like flight and super strength than altering reality or talking to ghosts.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    All I’m saying is that the gifts Diana received or her genetics from Zeus changed her biology into what it is. Unlike Shazam, she doesn’t require magic to become Wonder Woman or maintain her abilities.

    Someone like Circe could just as easily cast spells to weaken Superman and make him vulnerable as she could Diana.

    It’s a fine line I’m walking, but I don’t see Diana’s strength as magical, but physical, due to her genetics with Zeus or the gifts she was given when her body was transmuted from clay to flesh and blood.
    The way I see it is that Wonder Woman's powers aren't any one single thing. Here she is different from most other DC heroes.

    She is highly trained, educated, and skilled, up there with Batman. As part of her Amazon training she also has superior endurance, strength, agility, learning capacity, and so on.

    She also has her divine gifts. Here she is similar to Shazam, but hers are permanently on, and in some parts built-in due to her origin. I think any serious consideration of her origin would yield that she e.g. should have a connection with both the Red and the Green. The Red because of her gifts from Artemis, the Green because of her gifts from Demeter (and the clay origin further strengthens that).

  13. #28
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The way I see it is that Wonder Woman's powers aren't any one single thing. Here she is different from most other DC heroes.

    She is highly trained, educated, and skilled, up there with Batman. As part of her Amazon training she also has superior endurance, strength, agility, learning capacity, and so on.

    She also has her divine gifts. Here she is similar to Shazam, but hers are permanently on, and in some parts built-in due to her origin. I think any serious consideration of her origin would yield that she e.g. should have a connection with both the Red and the Green. The Red because of her gifts from Artemis, the Green because of her gifts from Demeter (and the clay origin further strengthens that).
    Also, she has advanced technology in some continuities.

    I think also part of the problem, as mentioned, is that magic in the DCU nowadays is heavily influenced by Vertigo comics, and usually stories centered around magic try their best to keep to the Vertigo Comics style, whereas sci-fi based comics in the DCU are much more varied in their styles. There's plenty you could read into how people approach fantasy nowadays (not to mention "science fantasies" like Star Wars and Doctor Who) from that.

  14. #29
    Incredible Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    Considering the DC universe established abrahamic mythology is canon and in that thing the first humans were made from clay given life by that god, I don't see how the origin makes Wonder Woman much different from the average joe.
    And arguing her use of magical items as a case for her to be magic itself would mean Perseus would have as strong a case if not stronger since he had more magical items on his little adventure.

    Ultimately, there are just to many other characters who have a stronger case to being the champion of magic in the DC universe.
    Doctor Fate is a god using a human body as a conduit and is repeatedly referred to as the most powerful magic wielder in the world.
    Captain Marvel was imbued with the power of five gods by a magical wizard whose declared that Billy will take his place as the Earths mightiest mortal and is explicitly referred to as the champion of magic on multiple occasions.
    Zatanna whose probably the most active and prolific superhero magic user.
    And even Constantine whose basically magic Batman.



    As for magic in the DC universe in general, its a huge mess and frankly its impossible to reconcile it and make it all jive together.
    You have 'magic is the stuff of dreams' power of imagination stuff.
    You have 'gift of the gods' stuff.
    You have 'Like science, magic is powered by faith' stuff.
    You have 'magic is a force permeating the universe and is the stuff of life' stuff.


    Writers have established science and magic in the DC universe are so interwoven that they can influence one enough, change from one to the other, and can even be combined. Tyrions making a noble effort to try and retcon all magic in DC comics to all function under Vertigo rules and be the dark and horrific stuff of nightmares, but meanwhile we have several other books out right now with a magic focus which don't at all jive with what Justice League Dark is trying to present.

  15. #30
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Mittens View Post
    And arguing her use of magical items as a case for her to be magic itself would mean Perseus would have as strong a case if not stronger since he had more magical items on his little adventure.
    Yes? So what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Mittens View Post
    Ultimately, there are just to many other characters who have a stronger case to being the champion of magic in the DC universe.
    Doctor Fate is a god using a human body as a conduit and is repeatedly referred to as the most powerful magic wielder in the world.
    Captain Marvel was imbued with the power of five gods by a magical wizard whose declared that Billy will take his place as the Earths mightiest mortal and is explicitly referred to as the champion of magic on multiple occasions.
    Zatanna whose probably the most active and prolific superhero magic user.
    And even Constantine whose basically magic Batman.

    And none of them have the cultural, historical, or in-universe significance that Diana does. None of the ones you mentioned are part of the Trinity, who are supposed to be THE top heroes that all other heroes look to.
    Last edited by LordUltimus; 01-20-2019 at 09:47 AM.

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