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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Mittens View Post
    Considering the DC universe established abrahamic mythology is canon and in that thing the first humans were made from clay given life by that god, I don't see how the origin makes Wonder Woman much different from the average joe.
    And arguing her use of magical items as a case for her to be magic itself would mean Perseus would have as strong a case if not stronger since he had more magical items on his little adventure.

    Ultimately, there are just to many other characters who have a stronger case to being the champion of magic in the DC universe.
    Doctor Fate is a god using a human body as a conduit and is repeatedly referred to as the most powerful magic wielder in the world.
    Captain Marvel was imbued with the power of five gods by a magical wizard whose declared that Billy will take his place as the Earths mightiest mortal and is explicitly referred to as the champion of magic on multiple occasions.
    Zatanna whose probably the most active and prolific superhero magic user.
    And even Constantine whose basically magic Batman.



    As for magic in the DC universe in general, its a huge mess and frankly its impossible to reconcile it and make it all jive together.
    You have 'magic is the stuff of dreams' power of imagination stuff.
    You have 'gift of the gods' stuff.
    You have 'Like science, magic is powered by faith' stuff.
    You have 'magic is a force permeating the universe and is the stuff of life' stuff.


    Writers have established science and magic in the DC universe are so interwoven that they can influence one enough, change from one to the other, and can even be combined. Tyrions making a noble effort to try and retcon all magic in DC comics to all function under Vertigo rules and be the dark and horrific stuff of nightmares, but meanwhile we have several other books out right now with a magic focus which don't at all jive with what Justice League Dark is trying to present.
    Diana was empowered by multiple gods. And not all of Shazam's abilities come from gods. In fact one of his powers (the Strength of Hercules) comes from a guy who is only half god.

    Now I don't believe Diana should be the big hero of magic (I don't think there should even be a big hero of magic) but she has as much claim to the role as any of the guys you mentioned.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-20-2019 at 10:53 AM.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Now I don't believe Diana should be the big hero of magic (I don't think there should even be a big hero of magic) but she has as much claim to the role as any of the guys you mentioned.
    I think viewing Diana as the magical hero only makes sense if you do it from the lense of the trinity. Batman is street-level and urban, but shares those turfs with many other heroes, and it doesn't stop Superman or Wonder Woman to be included in stories like that. Superman is space and science fiction, though arguably the Green Lantern is even more specialised there. And Wonder Woman is heroic fantasy and mythology, which also covers magic. But there are plenty of other characters who are even more into magic than she is.

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    With the first arc of Tynion's Justice League Dark having explored more of Wonder Woman's connection to DC's magic side, I figured we'd have a thread discussing magic in Wonder Woman's world. Anything about it is welcome, from how you think it should be handled to your favorite depictions of magic in a Wonder Woman story any story that featured Wonder Woman heavily.
    I thought Captain Marvel was the magic sentinel and Diana was the expert on divinities and transcendent beings

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzy Mittens View Post
    Considering the DC universe established abrahamic mythology is canon and in that thing the first humans were made from clay given life by that god, I don't see how the origin makes Wonder Woman much different from the average joe.
    And arguing her use of magical items as a case for her to be magic itself would mean Perseus would have as strong a case if not stronger since he had more magical items on his little adventure.

    Ultimately, there are just to many other characters who have a stronger case to being the champion of magic in the DC universe.
    Doctor Fate is a god using a human body as a conduit and is repeatedly referred to as the most powerful magic wielder in the world.
    Captain Marvel was imbued with the power of five gods by a magical wizard whose declared that Billy will take his place as the Earths mightiest mortal and is explicitly referred to as the champion of magic on multiple occasions.
    Zatanna whose probably the most active and prolific superhero magic user.
    And even Constantine whose basically magic Batman.



    As for magic in the DC universe in general, its a huge mess and frankly its impossible to reconcile it and make it all jive together.
    You have 'magic is the stuff of dreams' power of imagination stuff.
    You have 'gift of the gods' stuff.
    You have 'Like science, magic is powered by faith' stuff.
    You have 'magic is a force permeating the universe and is the stuff of life' stuff.


    Writers have established science and magic in the DC universe are so interwoven that they can influence one enough, change from one to the other, and can even be combined. Tyrions making a noble effort to try and retcon all magic in DC comics to all function under Vertigo rules and be the dark and horrific stuff of nightmares, but meanwhile we have several other books out right now with a magic focus which don't at all jive with what Justice League Dark is trying to present.
    Plenty of people on this forum have defined what Magic breaks into on this forum so its not that hard. Plus there is only one other Comic out right now dealing with magic and that's shazam. Magic in Shazam is light hearted, in Justice league Dark is darker. Magic is no less of mess than all the other stuff going on in DC continuity wise.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I don’t see Diana as having any extra magical resistance than someone like Superman, in the fact that they are incredibly powerful and can take tremendous damage physically (and sometimes mentally), whether it’s caused by a physical, telepathic, electrical, magical, etc. forces and they attempt to resist it as best they can.

    My main question is why give Wonder Woman magical abilities on top of her already formidable and varied set of powers? She’s already nigh unstoppable compared to many characters... (I enjoy that magic is something she needs to be wary and concerned about.)
    Superman has a lack of magically Resistance. We have seen him several times almost die due to magic. Cheetah, Circe and Diana have all harmed Superman. Diana on the other hand has been shown to have a bit more resistance

  6. #36
    Mighty Member Incognito's Avatar
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    When it comes to magic, I see WW as akin to Kratos, they are both demigods who weild magical weapons/items rather than being spellcasters and fighting gods (who are magical in nature but also been treated as metahuman-level threats) , I see other mystical characters such as Dr. Fate, Zatanna and Constantine more in tune with magic as a whole than WW, their stories are based on fantasy and they use sorcery to fight supernatural beings which are treated as mystical-level threats.

    WW is sort of an anomaly in the magical community, she is a demigoddess with divinity but she is always stuck in her own bubble where her stories are based on mythology (mostly Greek) which is only one branch of the supernatural and not exploring the realms of the supernatural where it shows more emphasis on magic also she is a member of the JL and their threats have mostly been either science and/or cosmic-level threats, it could be the reason why the mystical characters do not see her as part of the magic community because a majority of them are spellcasters and/or magic-based beings who fight supernatural creatures who are not just limited to gods but also vampires, demons, etc.

    When it comes to the Amazon's, I think the Bana-Mighdall should have some magic users since they left Themysicra a long time they might learned a few magical tricks which are not related to Amazons. Usually, I am against with WW having sorcery as part of her formidable power-set but if WW or any Amazon was ever going to have a magical ability, I would like to see her use Theurgy where she can call upon the gods to bestow her the power to perform miracles but it should come with a cost, that is something that I would like to see in WW stories, the cost of magic, to know that there are prices that you make, where they want either your soul, service, personal energy or sacrifice to confirm and perform the ritual.
    Last edited by Incognito; 01-22-2019 at 01:06 PM.

  7. #37
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    If we're to bring the Amazons more closer to magic, they could portray it as something that is viewed in a scientific and philosophical method with numerous disciplines and theories attached to it.

  8. #38
    Mighty Member Incognito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    All I’m saying is that the gifts Diana received or her genetics from Zeus changed her biology into what it is. Unlike Shazam, she doesn’t require magic to become Wonder Woman or maintain her abilities.

    Someone like Circe could just as easily cast spells to weaken Superman and make him vulnerable as she could Diana.

    It’s a fine line I’m walking, but I don’t see Diana’s strength as magical, but physical, due to her genetics with Zeus or the gifts she was given when her body was transmuted from clay to flesh and blood.
    Same, I always see when it comes to WW's physical capabilities, her powers are innate and built in, nothing really to do about it being magical other than her Father being a God.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan2013 View Post
    Same, I always see when it comes to WW's physical capabilities, her powers are innate and built in, nothing really to do about it being magical other than her Father being a God.
    Being magical and being innate are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of magical characters in the DCU born with their powers like Zatanna, Nightshade, Raven and Traci 13.

  10. #40
    Incredible Member Geraldofrivia's Avatar
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    Diana and Amazons should have high magical resistance. Plus Diana and other Amazons should have magical powers which is sealed of by the bracelets because it is uncontrollable and dangerous.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    Because a chip of a bullet that ricochets off Superman's chest put her in mortal danger?

    Diana can be injured/killed by 'sharp objects' throughout DC, so yeah, I think magic resistance should help differentiate her from Superman and offset that ridiculous weakness.

    They did away with the color yellow for GL, he doesn't need a battery anymore and he can do anything he wills into existence. What's his weakness?

    Aquaman no longer suffers for lack of water, is bullet-proof/rocket proof and has had his strength increased exponentially since nu52. What's his weakness?

    In theory, Diana is 'nigh unstoppable,' but in actuality, the number of times she's been taken down by something stupid is off the charts
    I’ll grant you that... Diana’s invulnerability is horribly inconsistent... She survives a nuclear explosion over in Superman/Wonder Woman, but gets pinged but shrapnel in Superman later. Grrrr...

    Now, magic bullets I could see causing her more harm.

    IDK about comparing her to others. The GLs can falter from time to time if their willpower is questioned, which I like and is a very human drama thing. The DCnU Aquaman is more powerful than ever before, but he’s still nowhere near Diana and Kal in power, so he has his limits that they don’t. (It’s weird that Arthur and Mera are shown as more bulletproof than Diana though.)

    I guess, as I’m working on conjuring up stories for her, that I like there being something(s) she can’t readily defend herself against with all the prowess she has in other areas. Magic and speed being two examples, with Kryptonians and Flashes mostly being faster than her for the latter.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Diana's powers have been established as given by the gods, and they've been taken away from her before. And sorcerers have cast spells to make Shazam weaker and make him vulnerable. And I don't think Zeus runs on genetics anyways.
    I’m just throwing out my interpretation of Diana, that I’m working with and am considering from different angles. I’ve been trying to think of what she struggles against, and the things/forces/abilities that aren’t directly in her wheelhouse and part of her skills.

    My thinking is sorcerer’s could bewitch Diana, Superman, Aquaman, etc. to change/block/harm the nature of their powers, regardless of whether they’re magically-empowered or not.

    Something I’ve been toying with too, is the nature of the gods. If they have genetics in their own way and how those interact with mortals or immortals (like Hippolyta) in procreation and the variances that affect the offspring.

  13. #43
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I’ll grant you that... Diana’s invulnerability is horribly inconsistent... She survives a nuclear explosion over in Superman/Wonder Woman, but gets pinged but shrapnel in Superman later. Grrrr...

    Now, magic bullets I could see causing her more harm.

    IDK about comparing her to others. The GLs can falter from time to time if their willpower is questioned, which I like and is a very human drama thing. The DCnU Aquaman is more powerful than ever before, but he’s still nowhere near Diana and Kal in power, so he has his limits that they don’t. (It’s weird that Arthur and Mera are shown as more bulletproof than Diana though.)

    I guess, as I’m working on conjuring up stories for her, that I like there being something(s) she can’t readily defend herself against with all the prowess she has in other areas. Magic and speed being two examples, with Kryptonians and Flashes mostly being faster than her for the latter.
    Guess you missed this nonsense then



    But beyond that, the whole 'sharp objects' thing is a much broader (and dumber) weakness than just about any hero out there these days. One by one, they've taken away a lot of the major weaknesses of the heroes, but Diana's just seem to get used more and more.

    So yeah, I'm all for a high magical resistance since a normal person with a normal gun could kill her.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I think you might be making the mistake that magical abilities cannot be passed through genetics. That's not the case in the DCU as seen with Homo Magi. Diana does have magic in her blood. It just manifests in things like flight and super strength than altering reality or talking to ghosts.
    See my comment above (if you’re interested.) Part of me is questioning (for my writing and character development) what the nature of the gods is and how it interacts with humans or other creatures.

    It’s all just “magic” and works is a good interpretation and acceptable, but I’m finding it intriguing to pursue other angles for funsies.

    Like, if Zeus makes Diana partially magic, does Darkseid make Grail partially <full in the blank>, because they’re all divinities? What the nature of the divinity in the DVU? Are there differences? I’ve asked this question before/a lot as the DCnU/Multiversity version of the New Gods as a singularity in the multiverse has seemed to erode away and some of the New Gods (see the Female Furies) are depicted at inconsist levels of power and ability in different titles.

  15. #45
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    The way I see it is that Wonder Woman's powers aren't any one single thing. Here she is different from most other DC heroes.

    She is highly trained, educated, and skilled, up there with Batman. As part of her Amazon training she also has superior endurance, strength, agility, learning capacity, and so on.

    She also has her divine gifts. Here she is similar to Shazam, but hers are permanently on, and in some parts built-in due to her origin. I think any serious consideration of her origin would yield that she e.g. should have a connection with both the Red and the Green. The Red because of her gifts from Artemis, the Green because of her gifts from Demeter (and the clay origin further strengthens that).
    That’s kind of how I see it too kjn.

    Interesting thoughts on the Red and the Green and possibly the Clear. I hadn’t considered that. I’m going to ponder that a bit...

    Her unity with beasts and open the hearts of men with fire abilities have always been a bit murky, but I guess that leaves them open to the fun of interpretation.

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