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  1. #61
    Wonder Moderator Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan2013 View Post
    What I am trying to explain is that Wonder Woman (Post-Crisis version) natural capabilities comes from her own as a demi-god, If it was the Pre-New 52 version then her abilities would be magical because she was made from magical clay and was given powers externally by the greek gods, but the recent version of Diana, her abilities has been naturally built in, and it always been a part of her, and that is the reason why I don't think it has to do anything with being magic other than her ability to fly. I know that she is not an alien or a metahuman, she is pretty much an ultraterrestial, this is just my opinion of how I view Diana's physical capabilities. I said they could be immaterial, did not say they are immaterial. In Greek Mythology, the Gods' 'blood' is Ichor, an ethereal fluid, that is the reason why I stated that it is a possibility that they are immaterial (or mostly immaterial because of their 'blood').
    In the Rebirth version of Diana, she was visited by the Patrons (gods) who gave her 'gifts,' including her strength and flight. Does this qualify?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan2013 View Post
    What I am trying to explain is that Wonder Woman (Post-Crisis version) natural capabilities comes from her own as a demi-god, If it was the Pre-New 52 version then her abilities would be magical because she was made from magical clay and was given powers externally by the greek gods, but the recent version of Diana, her abilities has been naturally built in, and it always been a part of her, and that is the reason why I don't think it has to do anything with being magic other than her ability to fly. I know that she is not an alien or a metahuman, she is pretty much an ultraterrestial, this is just my opinion of how I view Diana's physical capabilities. I said they could be immaterial, did not say they are immaterial. In Greek Mythology, the Gods' 'blood' is Ichor, an ethereal fluid, that is the reason why I stated that it is a possibility that they are immaterial (or mostly immaterial because of their 'blood').
    Again, none of this explains how Diana isn't a magical being. Yes she was born with her powers. I have never denied that. And as I have said numerous times, that doesn't mean her powers aren't magical. What do you think the gods are to begin with? Why is being a demigod and being a magical being mutually exclusive?
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-24-2019 at 10:15 PM.

  3. #63
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Frankly, there are too many malleables and unknowns: about the nature of DC's magic(s), about the nature of the Olympian gods and other mythological beings, about Diana's relation to the magics of DC, about what exact powers Diana has, about Diana's origin, and about the origin of Diana's powers, that anything said here is in the nature of extreme conjecture and guesswork.

  4. #64
    Incredible Member Jovan2013's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaelforce View Post
    In the Rebirth version of Diana, she was visited by the Patrons (gods) who gave her 'gifts,' including her strength and flight. Does this qualify?
    After looking at your comment I went back on one of the issues of the Rebirth version of WW, it does qualify since she was given those gifts, and the gods seems to act as her sponsors, it just that the New 52 version to me seems that her abilities comes from her own since she was born with it and was not given abilities from the gods, and in Rebirth there was a retcon of her getting gifts from the gods and references from Pre-New 52.

    One of the reason I have a problem with WW is that her history sometimes get changed a lot.

  5. #65
    Incredible Member Jovan2013's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, none of this explains how Diana isn't a magical being. Yes she was born with her powers. I have never denied that. And as I have said numerous times, that doesn't mean her powers aren't magical. What do you think the gods are to begin with? Why is being a demigod and being a magical being mutually exclusive?
    I already gave you my explanation. The version of Diana I was talking about was mostly the New 52 version, it's intrinsic to her biology, and it is not enhanced/powered my magical forces.

    Well a Demi-god physical capabilities would make them naturally more advanced than baseline human capabilities. The nature of mythological gods in comics can sometimes be vague, they could be divine beings composed of magic or higher beings who can tap into the forces of magic. What I am saying is that Diana was born to be stronger and faster, if you want to say that her capabilities are magical, then she is at least partial magical due to her status as being a demi-god. Demi-gods are like gods in physical forms or like physically evolved humans and limited, Yes, Diana got her dominant 'DNA' from their divine parentage but does not retain none of the magical abilities such as spellcasting, Diana is closer to being a mortal than being a magical being.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman is more of a warrior archetype then a mage. Magical items (lasso, bracelets, sword etc.) are okay and probably should be expanded on, but I really don't want her going full sorceress. DC already has characters for that.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovan2013 View Post
    I already gave you my explanation. The version of Diana I was talking about was mostly the New 52 version, it's intrinsic to her biology, and it is not enhanced/powered my magical forces.

    Well a Demi-god physical capabilities would make them naturally more advanced than baseline human capabilities. The nature of mythological gods in comics can sometimes be vague, they could be divine beings composed of magic or higher beings who can tap into the forces of magic. What I am saying is that Diana was born to be stronger and faster, if you want to say that her capabilities are magical, then she is at least partial magical due to her status as being a demi-god. Demi-gods are like gods in physical forms or like physically evolved humans and limited, Yes, Diana got her dominant 'DNA' from their divine parentage but does not retain none of the magical abilities such as spellcasting, Diana is closer to being a mortal than being a magical being.
    I already said she can't cast spells. That is not the only magical ability around. Shazam can't cast spells either. And how is she closer to being a mortal than a god? You even said that demigods are gods in physical form so that's a contradiction. What definition of mortal are you using? Also, partially magic is still magic.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 01-25-2019 at 01:17 PM.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Looking at my earlier theory of viewing the Amazons as nymphs of civilisation, and reading up a bit on how the ancient greeks (and romans) saw magic, gives a few possibilities.

    First, the practice of magic was rather nebolous and overlapping with other areas. Possessing secret knowledge, prayers, sacrifices, making potions, diviniation, exorcisms, communicating with the dead (the original meaning of the word necromancy, and not really viewed as evil as such), amulets for luck and protection, curses, blessings, and so on were all included. Shamanistic practices doesn't seem to be part of it, but can't really be ruled out. I'm not sure how well shamanism fit with the Amazons, though. In most cases, any magic that humans and demigods (gods dwelling on earth, like nymphs and satyrs) did was coupled to the prayers to the gods (there are a few exceptions, like Circe; a titaness living on earth) and included invocations to them.

    Some of the types of potions I've found include emetics, medicines, transformation, revivification, fire protection, and poisons. I imagine Diana can have a practical knowledge of healing potions and medicine, but leaves anything more advanced to specialists.

    She definitely possesses various forms of secret knowledge, though there should be Amazons who know a lot more. I also believe she regularly performs various prayers, rituals, and sacrifices, mostly focused on herself, her home, and her equipment. She likely knows some of the rituals she would need to perform as queen of the Amazons, but there is no reason to perform them in Man's World.

    I imagine Diana by her nature and her regular rituals is an extremely hard target for malign magic. I wouldn't be surprised if she has a sensitivity to magical and divine energies, but since she lived surrounded by it all the time on Themyscira I imagine it took a while to twig to it in Man's World. "Healing hands" can probably be argued in either direction, but I'd lean towards no.

    She definitely has a connection with the Red (via Artemis's blessing), and maybe also the Green (via Demeter).

    I also think that she probably could learn "magic magic" like Zatanna, but that doing so would be problematic for her personal relation with the gods, and wouldn't really fit with her personality either.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Actually, now that I think about it, could Diana work with a spellcaster as part of her supporting cast?

  10. #70
    Incredible Member Jovan2013's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I already said she can't cast spells. That is not the only magical ability around. Shazam can't cast spells either. And how is she closer to being a mortal than a god? You even said that demigods are gods in physical form so that's a contradiction. What definition of mortal are you using? Also, partially magic is still magic.
    After looking back at my comment, what I meant to clarify is that her nature of being a demi-god makes her a god to others in physical form with mortality since she is ageless and cannot resurrect herself like gods can. We have been debating for so long, that I was not aware that I said she is mostly mortal, but the mortal part of her makes her a demi-god because they are offspring of a mortal and divine parentage. Mortals as in human being subject to death.

  11. #71
    Incredible Member Fuzzy Mittens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Actually, now that I think about it, could Diana work with a spellcaster as part of her supporting cast?
    She did actually. Had a three hundred year old witch doctor named Mother Juju as part of her supporting cast during the early 80s
    There was also Magala the Amazon sorceress who popped up during post crisis
    And multiple writers have added oracles to the Amazons membership over the decades

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Frankly, there are too many malleables and unknowns: about the nature of DC's magic(s), about the nature of the Olympian gods and other mythological beings, about Diana's relation to the magics of DC, about what exact powers Diana has, about Diana's origin, and about the origin of Diana's powers, that anything said here is in the nature of extreme conjecture and guesswork.
    I also think it’s extreme fun to theorize about her and nature of divinity in the DCU, as it’s open to interpretation and not definitive.

    But, this is also the stuff I love to discuss and dig into about characters, because of fans differing POVs and how they make me reconsider my POV.
    Last edited by WonderScott; 01-26-2019 at 10:25 AM.

  13. #73
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Actually, now that I think about it, could Diana work with a spellcaster as part of her supporting cast?
    I’d propose that there are a few Amazons skilled in magic, relative to the size of their population, similar to the relative number of magic users that have those abilities in Patriarch’s World.

    In my Wonder Woman writing and myth-building, I’ve created a couple of new characters, one who majorly uses magic and who minorly uses magic, as part of her world - and they’re not Amazons.

    Also, in the city I have divined for Diana, I’m definitely having Extraño move there. I’d like to see Diana adopt him as part of her supporting characters.
    Last edited by WonderScott; 01-26-2019 at 10:27 AM.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WonderScott View Post
    I also think it’s extreme fun to theorize about her and nature of divinity in the DCU, as it’s open to interpretation and not definitive.

    But, this is also the stuff I love to discuss and dig into about characters, because of fans differing POVs and how they make me reconsider my POV.
    Oh, it's not that I have anything against the discussion in and of itself, but rather that there is very little room for saying a certain take is wrong or incorrect, and that everyone should be aware that we're bringing different sets of preconceptions and goals to it.

  15. #75
    Incredible Member Jovan2013's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    She definitely possesses various forms of secret knowledge, though there should be Amazons who know a lot more. I also believe she regularly performs various prayers, rituals, and sacrifices, mostly focused on herself, her home, and her equipment. She likely knows some of the rituals she would need to perform as queen of the Amazons, but there is no reason to perform them in Man's World.
    I would not mind seeing Wonder Woman performing theurgy, calling upon the gods to perform miracles or to empower her but there should be some limitations such as the gods would demand in something to return.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Some of the types of potions I've found include emetics, medicines, transformation, revivification, fire protection, and poisons. I imagine Diana can have a practical knowledge of healing potions and medicine, but leaves anything more advanced to specialists.
    Since the Amazon live in Themyscira, an island full of flora and fauna, I could see the Amazon performing holistic medicine using nature as a medicine for biological-based practice, mind-body therapy and body-based practices.


    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    She definitely has a connection with the Red (via Artemis's blessing), and maybe also the Green (via Demeter).
    It would make sense since she can empathize with animals due to Artemis' blessing. Don't know about the connection to the Green because she does not possess an ability which relates to flora. Maybe she has a connection to The Melt, an elemental force which derives from earth and earthly minerals (rock, dirt, clay, etc.). IIRC, the pre-new 52 version can heal herself within the earth. EDIT: The Melt used to be part of The Green but then later it became a seperate force.
    Last edited by Jovan2013; 01-26-2019 at 05:04 PM.

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