Superman:Time travel

[Soubhagya]

But without any scientific evidence for there being a "catch" to keep humans from influencing the past, why assume such a catch would exist? And if particles can do it, then time travel does exist in principle - whether humans can survive it who knows, but at least the particles prove there's no fundamental rule against. This is why I love time travel stories, of all science fiction tropes it "feels" the most doable because there's nothing in science to really say otherwise. With a lot of the space travel fiction, to cover vast distances quickly, there's a lot of fubbing around with physics to get faster than light, but with time travel there's currently nothing to fub, because we don't know. Makes a sort of great opportunity to imagine what it could be like since you don't have to worry about running afoul of known science as much. I don't know, at least for me.

Doesn't hurt that I also hope time travel exists just because it'd help mankind's future expansion in space - many of the technologies we would need to cross galaxies (and not have to wait millions of years at the woefully slow speeds below light) are things that also theoretically could function as time machines, such as wormholes (and I think warp drives too maybe? Can't remember).

My thought is that time travel is impossible. At least to the past. Future maybe a different case.

If i remember my woefully poor physics knowledge, the FTL traveller experiences time differently. For him or her time flows slowly. So, while the outer world moves normally, time slows down for that person. For example the time taken by the travelller's watch to turn from 2 to 3 pm will be the same as the time taken by 'outside' clocks to change from 2 to 4 pm.

Particle physics is a very weird science. Initially, i studied that electrons move in orbits around the nucleus. But then i knew that they don't move in orbits but orbitals which are a kind of 'probability clouds'. Orbital was merely a space in which an electron is supposed to be found with 99% probability. So, its somehow possible that an electron may not even be in an orbital! And these weird structures combine to form bonds and thus elements combine to form compounds, the building blocks of our existence.

Taking these subatomic physics to macroscopic levels would be almost like 'magic'. I would be having both mass as well as wavelength. [Imagine the ripple(wave) created by a pebble is same as the pebble(mass) itself]. Well i am still supposed to have wavelength as per Heisenberg's theory. But its too negligible for larger masses. But as you go to subatomic level the dual nature can't be ignored.


If we go by logic, this too shall not make sense. What we are now is the result of the past. But if the past is changed are we the same? Timeline is a cool theory. But where has the 'new universe' come from? For example this universe has to have carbon dioxide. But where did this carbon dioxide come from? Nothing?

[Jim Kelly]

In the Weisinger stories, it was established that the past can't be changed. The future maybe but not the past. So every time that Superman (or someone else) went into the past and tried to change an event, it turned out they were always supposed to travel back in time and be part of the event. This would mean that it was always going to happen that Superman would travel back in time to Krypton before he was born and interact with his father.

A story that highlights this rule and seems to break is "Superman's Greatest Feats," SUPERMAN 146 (July 1961). where the Man of Tomorrow does travel into the past and changes an event, but assumes his action will not have changed history. He's suprised when it does, so he goes on to change more and more events from how he remembers them. In the end, he discovers that he's in an alternate universe, where he apparently can change historical events. Superman then goes back to his own universe.

This is a thought provoking story for me. I wonder if it was the very fact that he's from an alternate universe that allows Superman to change what he thinks should be the timeline. Maybe a rule for Wesinger time travel is that an agent from outside the timeline can interfere with events, but in so doing he creates events that shape that universe. It's almost like a philosophical idea of the absent God, where God created the universe and then left it on its own. The Man of Steel leaves the universe he has manipulated and then everyone in that universe are left to pick up the pieces from what he's caused.

[Osiris-Rex]

An alternative is the Legion of Super-Heroes can time travel using the Time Sphere. Thus they were able to meet Superboy. And with their help Superboy too was able to time travel.
So in that regard Superman can travel back and forth in time via the Time Sphere. Also in Smallville and Supergirl a Legion flight ring is used to time travel by both Clark and Kara.

[Vakanai]

My thought is that time travel is impossible. At least to the past. Future maybe a different case.

If i remember my woefully poor physics knowledge, the FTL traveller experiences time differently. For him or her time flows slowly. So, while the outer world moves normally, time slows down for that person. For example the time taken by the travelller's watch to turn from 2 to 3 pm will be the same as the time taken by 'outside' clocks to change from 2 to 4 pm.

Particle physics is a very weird science. Initially, i studied that electrons move in orbits around the nucleus. But then i knew that they don't move in orbits but orbitals which are a kind of 'probability clouds'. Orbital was merely a space in which an electron is supposed to be found with 99% probability. So, its somehow possible that an electron may not even be in an orbital! And these weird structures combine to form bonds and thus elements combine to form compounds, the building blocks of our existence.

Taking these subatomic physics to macroscopic levels would be almost like 'magic'. I would be having both mass as well as wavelength. [Imagine the ripple(wave) created by a pebble is same as the pebble(mass) itself]. Well i am still supposed to have wavelength as per Heisenberg's theory. But its too negligible for larger masses. But as you go to subatomic level the dual nature can't be ignored.


If we go by logic, this too shall not make sense. What we are now is the result of the past. But if the past is changed are we the same? Timeline is a cool theory. But where has the 'new universe' come from? For example this universe has to have carbon dioxide. But where did this carbon dioxide come from? Nothing?

As with most things particle physics, you kind of lost me. Quantum mechanics is a freaky place ain't it?

[Jon Clark]

My thought is that time travel is impossible. At least to the past. Future maybe a different case.

If we go by logic, this too shall not make sense. What we are now is the result of the past. But if the past is changed are we the same? Timeline is a cool theory. But where has the 'new universe' come from? For example this universe has to have carbon dioxide. But where did this carbon dioxide come from? Nothing?

Maybe conservation of matter only exists within a single universe.

Earth-DC Rip Hunter goes back in time and kills his granddad. From the perspective of Earth-DC nothing happens. Life goes on as it always had. No one but Rip is aware that a new timeline was created.
Earth-Rip comes into existence at the moment Rip's granddad dies. But to anyone there Earth-Rip has always existed. it may in fact share the same matter as Earth-DC up until this point or have always existed separately- there is no way to tell as travel back before grandad's death lands you in an identical place under either theory.

[Jon Clark]

In the Weisinger stories, it was established that the past can't be changed. The future maybe but not the past. So every time that Superman (or someone else) went into the past and tried to change an event, it turned out they were always supposed to travel back in time and be part of the event. This would mean that it was always going to happen that Superman would travel back in time to Krypton before he was born and interact with his father.

A story that highlights this rule and seems to break is "Superman's Greatest Feats," SUPERMAN 146 (July 1961). where the Man of Tomorrow does travel into the past and changes an event, but assumes his action will not have changed history. He's suprised when it does, so he goes on to change more and more events from how he remembers them. In the end, he discovers that he's in an alternate universe, where he apparently can change historical events. Superman then goes back to his own universe.

This is a thought provoking story for me. I wonder if it was the very fact that he's from an alternate universe that allows Superman to change what he thinks should be the timeline. Maybe a rule for Wesinger time travel is that an agent from outside the timeline can interfere with events, but in so doing he creates events that shape that universe. It's almost like a philosophical idea of the absent God, where God created the universe and then left it on its own. The Man of Steel leaves the universe he has manipulated and then everyone in that universe are left to pick up the pieces from what he's caused.

Or maybe those events were always different. If the Weisinger Superman traveled to Earth-2 and is able to save Barry Allen there from a certain lightning/chemical accident is he changing history or is it that Barry never gained speed on Earth-2? I've read things about the "Superman's Greatest Feats" story but nothing ever made it clear if he was actually changing that universe's history (He knew what originally happened there and changed that) or if the alternate universe might have simply had a history where the events Superman changed had been always different and Superman was simply unable to change that history to match his own.

[Jim Kelly]

Or maybe those events were always different. If the Weisinger Superman traveled to Earth-2 and is able to save Barry Allen there from a certain lightning/chemical accident is he changing history or is it that Barry never gained speed on Earth-2? I've read things about the "Superman's Greatest Feats" story but nothing ever made it clear if he was actually changing that universe's history (He knew what originally happened there and changed that) or if the alternate universe might have simply had a history where the events Superman changed had been always different and Superman was simply unable to change that history to match his own.

That's what makes it such a great story. One can contemplate the possibilites without ever coming to a definitive answer.

[Soubhagya]

As with most things particle physics, you kind of lost me. Quantum mechanics is a freaky place ain't it?

My apologies. Let me elaborate it a bit so you can appreciate a bit more about its weird nature.

According to Broglie, matter exists in a dual state. It has mass and it possesses properties of waves. Our experience is that matter and waves are different. You can create waves in matter. Like say sea waves. But waves are also separate from matter. For example light travels in vaccum. Light has properties of waves like wavelength, frequency etc. even if does not have mass. Light is not composed of particles like matter is.

According to Broglie, our bodies also have properties of waves. But by mathematics he shows that our wave like nature is very minisicule. Negligible. Due to mass. But when we go to lesser masses like electrons for example, they amply display a dual nature. Heck even light is dual. Sometimes it behaves as wave. Sometimes as combination of particles. Just imagine. One moment we are rock solid. In the next we can flow through/around solid barriers leaving ripples on its surface.

I gave another example. We imagine atoms like this. There is a nucleus. And electrons flow around the nucleus in fixed orbits. Almost like solar system. But in reality its not all like that. Electrons form a sort of cloud around the nucleus. And at a given point of time we just can't find where an electron is situated. That's why quantum mechanics uses probability while tracing/studying electrons. The villain from Ant Man 2 can give some kind of idea. At a point of time we can't fix her in space. Its fuzzy and unclear.

That's the normal way of things in that realm.

[Jim Kelly]

I recommend watching any of Richard Feynman's lectures on youtube. He has a wonderful way of talking about higher mathematics and quantum theory that is most entertaining.

[Soubhagya]

I recommend watching any of Richard Feynman's lectures on youtube. He has a wonderful way of talking about higher mathematics and quantum theory that is most entertaining.

That's a better idea. Understand from an actual teacher. Not some tenth rate poster on the internet. And thanks for the recommendation. You never expect a physics lecture recommendation in a Superman forum.

[Adekis]

I don't need time travel in my cartoons to work the same way as time travel in real life, which, er, doesn't work, as far as we know.

Quick note: I wonder if Superman went way, way out of his way to make sure that it was safe to send Titano the Super-Ape back in time, or if, as it seemed, he just went ahead and did it. Maybe Titano caused the dinosaurs to die out! According to the internet, it looks like Titano foiled at least one prehistoric alien invasion. Did Kal do that on purpose?

The world may never know!

[dancj]

I always thought the craziest thing about Superman's time travel was that he could go forward or backwards depending on whether he flew in circles clockwise or anti-clockwise.

This is obviously nonsense because whether he's clockwise or anti-clockwise depends on what direction you're looking at him from.

[Jim Kelly]

I always thought the craziest thing about Superman's time travel was that he could go forward or backwards depending on whether he flew in circles clockwise or anti-clockwise.

This is obviously nonsense because whether he's clockwise or anti-clockwise depends on what direction you're looking at him from.

I don't remember ever reading that in a comic book.

[Kuwagaton]

Huh, that's how I always remember it being described, like in Action #515 as I mentioned.

Edit: forgot this was Action 300, too



But I know it wouldn't be said in every instance of traveling back and generally less likely of instances going forward in time.

[Jim Kelly]

You got me there. But I didn't read that story until maybe the 1980s, when it was reprinted in a digest, and I must not have paid attention. I would have just ignored it as some Weisinger era foolishness. The first Superman comics with time travel I would have read would be ADVENTURE COMICS 355 (April 1967) and ACTION COMICS 350 (May 1967) and I don't recall there being much explanation how Superman was able to time travel--he just could.