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  1. #1
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    Default At what point did the Earth-One and Earth-Two Batman stories diverge?

    This, I feel, has been a topic of long debate. Of course, there is no official point of separation as to when Earth-Two stories stopped being told and Earth-One stories started, because the writers weren't even aware of the concept until it was created in 1961. So some point in the 1950s seems to be the case. But when would be a good time to call it, based on the available evidence?

    I've heard it said that the point where Batman's symbol changed to include the yellow oval is an accepted time, but I've also heard that refuted.

    Batwoman and Bat-Girl became associated with Earth-One, but apparently they have Earth-Two versions as well. That doesn't mean any of the stories we saw them in back then were on Earth-Two. They may simply exist there as well, in untold stories.

    It's funny because even though the Golden Age has not been considered canon for the Batman in currently-running comics since 1961, references to that Batman are still rife in comics, such as including the original Batmobile in the Batcave.

    Was there ever anything shown of Earth-Two's post-Golden-Age adventures, such as him riding the later Batmobiles, that would shed some light on this? Certainly, I think that BY the time of the yellow oval, Earth-Two stories had stopped, if not at that point precisely.

  2. #2
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    I would put it in the first appearance of Batman as a member of the Justice League of America in THE BRAVE & THE BOLD # 28 (1960). Though featured in only a single panel, Batman's appearance as a member of the Justice League is definitively and distinctly Earth-One for the first time because Earth-Two had no Justice League.

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  3. #3
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    Its a bit tricky because, unlike the case with Superman, Batman was never substantially retconned during the late 1940's/early 1950's. So with Superman you can argue that the introduction and gradual expansion of the Superboy backstory signified a gradual 'soft reboot' from the Earth Two Superman to the Earth One Superman. But in Batman's case, no such distinction exists.

    The easiest way to understand it is this - the Golden Age stories are canonical to both versions. The point of divergence lies in the stories of the early 50's. On both earths, Catwoman gave up her life of crime. But on Earth One, as seen in the comics published at the time, she returned to crime and the status quo was restored. Whereas on Earth Two, as we discover in later stories, she stayed reformed and ended up marrying Bruce Wayne.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Its a bit tricky because, unlike the case with Superman, Batman was never substantially retconned during the late 1940's/early 1950's. So with Superman you can argue that the introduction and gradual expansion of the Superboy backstory signified a gradual 'soft reboot' from the Earth Two Superman to the Earth One Superman. But in Batman's case, no such distinction exists.

    The easiest way to understand it is this - the Golden Age stories are canonical to both versions. The point of divergence lies in the stories of the early 50's. On both earths, Catwoman gave up her life of crime. But on Earth One, as seen in the comics published at the time, she returned to crime and the status quo was restored. Whereas on Earth Two, as we discover in later stories, she stayed reformed and ended up marrying Bruce Wayne.
    To some extent, I think the Golden Age stories are even canonical to Post-COIE Batman and Post-FLASHPOINT Batman. All versions have likely gone through some version of "Case of the Chemical Syndicate."

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  5. #5
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    It's different if you're talking about a made up thing called the "Golden Age" or another made up thing called "Earth-Two."

    The Golden Age as a made up concept can be given clear dates. Different people have different dates for the "Golden Age," but it only involves those years--whatever ones you give it. Earth-Two as a made up concept has no clear dates, because the people who made it up selected what things to include and what things not to include. "Earth-Two Batman" is a little more consistent than "Earth-Two Superman," but there's still some creative thinking that makes him rather confusing.

    Paul Levitz is the one who primarily decided what to use and what not to use from the old comics to construct his version of Earth-Two continuity. The point at which his Bruce Wayne most clearly breaks with the publishing history is "The Crimes of Catwoman," DETECTIVE COMICS 203 (January 1954), when Selena goes back to a life of crime. On Earth-Two this doesn't happen and she marries Bruce, so the timeline diverges at this point. Yet Earth-Two continuity nevertheless includes characters and situations that did occur in the comics after that--like Batwoman (Kathy Kane), but on Earth-Two she wasn't a serious love interest for the now married Bruce Wayne.

    On the other hand, one might not want to include every story after 1953 as part of Earth-One continuity either. The 1950s stories are in this nebulous region where they might not have happened on either Earth-One or Earth-Two.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slimybug View Post
    . . . I've heard it said that the point where Batman's symbol changed to include the yellow oval is an accepted time, but I've also heard that refuted.
    The "New Look" / yellow oval didn't begin until 1964, way beyond the point when stories considered "Silver Age" happened.





    In fact, when DC chose to reprint several older comic books as "Silver Age Classics", they also chose to go with Detective Comics #225 (November 1955) for the first appearance of Martian Manhunter, which is much closer to the issue/story Jim Kelly cited for Batman's transition from Golden Age to Silver Age.


  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    To some extent, I think the Golden Age stories are even canonical to Post-COIE Batman and Post-FLASHPOINT Batman. All versions have likely gone through some version of "Case of the Chemical Syndicate."

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    You're quiet right. Morrison made the Golden Age stories canonical again in the 'Last Rites' two-parter, and even includes a flashback to "The Case of the Chemical Syndicate".

    Plus, there have been many retellings of that story, most recently in 'Tec 900, so it definitely is a constant across continuities and timelines. The beauty of that story is that its such a simple tale that it can easily fit into any continuity without too many contradictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It's different if you're talking about a made up thing called the "Golden Age" or another made up thing called "Earth-Two."

    The Golden Age as a made up concept can be given clear dates. Different people have different dates for the "Golden Age," but it only involves those years--whatever ones you give it. Earth-Two as a made up concept has no clear dates, because the people who made it up selected what things to include and what things not to include. "Earth-Two Batman" is a little more consistent than "Earth-Two Superman," but there's still some creative thinking that makes him rather confusing.

    Paul Levitz is the one who primarily decided what to use and what not to use from the old comics to construct his version of Earth-Two continuity. The point at which his Bruce Wayne most clearly breaks with the publishing history is "The Crimes of Catwoman," DETECTIVE COMICS 203 (January 1954), when Selena goes back to a life of crime. On Earth-Two this doesn't happen and she marries Bruce, so the timeline diverges at this point. Yet Earth-Two continuity nevertheless includes characters and situations that did occur in the comics after that--like Batwoman (Kathy Kane), but on Earth-Two she wasn't a serious love interest for the now married Bruce Wayne.

    On the other hand, one might not want to include every story after 1953 as part of Earth-One continuity either. The 1950s stories are in this nebulous region where they might not have happened on either Earth-One or Earth-Two.
    Agreed.

    Catwoman returning/not returning to crime is the major point of divergence between the two timelines. There are other superficial differences of course. For instance, Alfred's last name being Pennyworth on Earth One but Beagle on Earth Two. Or Martha Wayne being shot dead on Earth One but dying of a heart attack on Earth Two. But by and large, the period depicted in stories published between 1939 and 1955 apply to both versions of the Dark Knight. And indeed, some post-1955 stories, or elements of them, might retroactively apply to both versions too.

  8. #8
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    The "Earth-One" of Julius Schwartz varied on just what was in continuity and not, but they could always reach right back to the earliest Batman stories--including the stories of Hugo Strange or Julie Madison. We can even conclude that "The Case of the Chemical Syndicate" also happened on Earth-One because scenes from that are shown in JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 37 (August 1965). In the Schwartz comics, the flashbacks were often rendered authentic to the original stories.

    Schwartz ended his editorial involvement with Batman in 1979 and then in 1980 THE UNTOLD LEGEND OF THE BATMAN came out, edited by Paul Levitz. And while the comic uses a lot of continuity from the early Batman stories, they insisted on showing Batman with the yellow oval from the beginning. Which not only contradicts the original stories but contradicts what had been established when Schwartz was editor. I remember that Paul Levitz defended this choice in a letter column by saying something like they didn't want to confuse readers by showing Batman without the oval. But by doing that in a comic that purported to be the official continuity of the 1980 Batman they were essentially creating a new version of Batman.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    ...The point at which his Bruce Wayne most clearly breaks with the publishing history is "The Crimes of Catwoman," DETECTIVE COMICS 203 (January 1954), when Selena goes back to a life of crime. On Earth-Two this doesn't happen and she marries Bruce, so the timeline diverges at this point. Yet Earth-Two continuity nevertheless includes characters and situations that did occur in the comics after that--like Batwoman (Kathy Kane), but on Earth-Two she wasn't a serious love interest for the now married Bruce Wayne.
    That's the best answer that I can imagine as well. Everything else (except for a couple of appearances in All-Star Comics, one of which was only a cameo) can be written off as parallel lives.

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