The Master of Kung Fu - Shang Chi Appreciation 2019

[Tien Long]

Found out some interesting perspectives while watching this clip:



Some interesting, informed, and perhaps on the nose comments concerning Black Panther from some Chinese citizens. Around the 5:50 mark, the interviewees give their perspectives on how film companies should make films about China. Basically, they touch on a lot comments we've discussed before, like not giving into tokenism and showing real Chinese life.

[Blind Wedjat]

That video was certainly something lol. I'll try not to take anything there personally. I did watch the one done for Koreans which was a lot more insightful and informative to watch. I hadn't really thought about the perception of BP much in Asia but it's clear it as well as black led films have to fight an uphill battle in terms of perception of black people. Anyway I wouldn't dive deep into much because this is a Shang Chi thread anyway, but I think what is important to note is that movies aren't just movies and really do inform people of what other people are like. Shang Chi definitely has to do this for Western audiences, but when you do have someone saying a Shang Chi movies needs to be politically neutral I wonder how it's going to go. I know I haven't seen it, but aren't the Wolf Warrior movies political? Maybe someone who's seen them can explain better. I don't want to come across as ignorant.

Your idea for an Agents of Atlas story is an interesting one, Tien Long. It's going to be very tricky to pull off as a film but I can see a comic like that working if it's done right. Don't want to deviate too much but I never liked it when T'Challa makes Wakanda nationalist and isolationist. He's always wanted to interact with the rest of the world and he's less nationalist than previous BPs due to his own Western education (as problematic as that sounds) and interactions with foreign heroes, and generally he was just smarter. So really at this point in the MU T'Challa should be do the most he can for neighbouring African countries and other black communities. I really like that this seems to be the direction the MCU is going with him because in my opinion it's that willingness and capacity to help others while having to deal with and take care of an entire nation (that is constantly a target) is what sets T'Challa apart from every other superhero. I just wanted to say in that kind of story I would prefer it if T'Challa was doing something for Nigandans.

I definitely haven't thought about casting other characters in the Shang Chi movie, and if Captain Marvel hadn't already picked her up (and wasted her) I would have definitely gone with Gemma Chan as Leiko Wu. But I admittedly haven't watched many Chinese movies and I don't know many actresses. Again, my own ignorance and lack of knowledge showing and I would like to know more. Also, I'm kinda feeling Ludi Lin as Shang Chi right now? I'm gonna watch the Black Mirror episode he was in to get a feel of him (I know he's playing a fighting video game character VR version of Anthony Mackie's character), but he is young and looks young (franchise potential), has a bit of a following, has the MA experience, and can speak Mandarin and Cantonese fluently (as well as English). I just want to know if he can act well enough now to carry a whole movie. He also has said he wants to do it (which means he might not get it as per how these usually go).

Also, I stumbled upon this blog post about the movie. It's just about making the film less racist and it's mostly stuff we've talked about before, but there's a bit I found interesting:

2. HE'S A KUNG-FU MASTER

How to Fix It: Focus on his superpowers

Shang-Chi is Chinese. So, of course, he knows kung fu. The stereotype of the martial arts master is deeply ingrained in Asian portrayals in the media. Most of the time when there's a fight scene the Asians use karate even if no one else does.

Marvel decides to create a movie focusing on their first Asian superhero and, BINGO! He's a kung-fu master! It's hard to make up a story like that.

It's kind of like if Black Panther, the first Marvel movie focussed on a black man was about a South Central gangbanger who gets his powers from eating fried chicken. Or if Marvel's first lead Latina actor was a superpowered maid. Or if the first Jewish superhero was a lawyer who also did the accounting. It's inherently racist.

They could have avoided this by using one of their other great Asian superheroes I listed like Sunfire or Ms. Marvel. But here we are. So what to do about it?

Let's look at Fox's portrayal of Blob (Kevin Durand) in X-Men Origins: Wolverine as an example. My brother, Nigel, pointed out Blob's power in the comics is that he's fat. So fat that he can't be moved and his super-fatness keeps him from being hurt. To avoid "fat-shaming" they changed it. First, they showed Fred Dukes' superpowers of strength and invulnerability. Then, they show that he turned really fat.

They can do the same thing with Shang-Chi. First, show that he has the ability to create duplicates of himself. Then, show that he learns martial arts to harness the power. It takes the focus away from his superpower of being really, really Chinese.

While I'm not too sure about the execution of this, there is a very good idea behind it. I've talked about making Shang Chi feeling less like a stereotypical kung fu guy by broadening his MA experience, given him gadgets, and making him a bit more James Bond-y. And I know we've come to the conclusion that Shang Chi should have minimal to no powers but now that I do think about it, the duplicate thing could actually be a lot of fun. Fun, complex, and occasionally funny action sequences. Can be used to give him personality (say he got it when he was a kid and he used it to play pranks on his teachers, or how he interacts with said duplicates). Could be that he's a very good spy/intelligence gatherer because and that's why MI-6 notice him (and not just his MA abilities). It allows him to hang with MCU top tier fighters like BP, Bucky and Widow, and you can set him up being over-reliant on the power and loosing it so he can choose to greatly improve his MA skills and become even better. My only hangup is explaining how he got it in the first place. I'd rather make it a science/technological thing than mystical like in the comics, and say his father was conducting some experiments and an accident happened which game him the powers (we could later find out it was intentional or he used it to his advantage). But while the power is unique to the MCU it makes him a bit more generic being another experiment/accident again. However I honestly see the appeal and how it makes him feel less stereotypical.

What do you guys think?

[H-E-D]

I dig the duplicate power myself, though... honestly I can't remember it ever being used. I remember the panel where he got it, and I don't think I've seen him use it since. I suppose it probably showed up somewhere else in Time Runs Out, but has it been seen since Secret Wars?

[Tien Long]

That video was certainly something lol. I'll try not to take anything there personally. I did watch the one done for Koreans which was a lot more insightful and informative to watch. I hadn't really thought about the perception of BP much in Asia but it's clear it as well as black led films have to fight an uphill battle in terms of perception of black people. Anyway I wouldn't dive deep into much because this is a Shang Chi thread anyway, but I think what is important to note is that movies aren't just movies and really do inform people of what other people are like. Shang Chi definitely has to do this for Western audiences, but when you do have someone saying a Shang Chi movies needs to be politically neutral I wonder how it's going to go. I know I haven't seen it, but aren't the Wolf Warrior movies political? Maybe someone who's seen them can explain better. I don't want to come across as ignorant.

"Politically neutral" is a tricky term. If you get right down to it, everything has a political message, right? Though I only saw a couple of clips, there was pretty heavy propaganda in Wolf Warrior 2. The Chinese being heroes, saving Africans, fighting against a bad guy who has subtly symbolizes the white powerful colonizer/imperialist, the overtones were there. (Again, to be fair, a lot of countries do this. I mean, c'mon, Rocky IV's propaganda was through the roof!) I think when one of the interviewees mentions that they don't want a film with any overtly political references, that means nothing really weighty and negative. If Shang-Chi talked about China's firewall, references Tiananmen Square, or talks about prisons that house Muslim Uighurs, a Chinese audience would be upset, because they'd see the argument as one-sided. For mainland Chinese, there are reasons behind these things. Some would acknowledge it's negative. But still, it's a weighty, difficult thing. Saving Africans in Wolf Warrior 2 may be one-sided, but hey, that depicts China in a more positive light.

Your idea for an Agents of Atlas story is an interesting one, Tien Long. It's going to be very tricky to pull off as a film but I can see a comic like that working if it's done right. Don't want to deviate too much but I never liked it when T'Challa makes Wakanda nationalist and isolationist. He's always wanted to interact with the rest of the world and he's less nationalist than previous BPs due to his own Western education (as problematic as that sounds) and interactions with foreign heroes, and generally he was just smarter. So really at this point in the MU T'Challa should be do the most he can for neighbouring African countries and other black communities. I really like that this seems to be the direction the MCU is going with him because in my opinion it's that willingness and capacity to help others while having to deal with and take care of an entire nation (that is constantly a target) is what sets T'Challa apart from every other superhero. I just wanted to say in that kind of story I would prefer it if T'Challa was doing something for Nigandans.

I see your point. It reminds me a lot of that post-credits scene in Black Panther when T'Challa opens up Wakanda to the U.N. or how his father wanted to help bombing victims back during Civil War. T'Challa has been opening Wakanda up to the rest of the world. I could definitely see him opening up to Nigandans and offering economic and infrastructure aid. In my storyline, though, I still think there could be Chinese/Wakandan tension. For Nigandans, Wakanda finally opening up could be too little, too late. Erasing centuries of tensions between the two countries wouldn't occur over night. Niganda wouldn't readily be accepting of Wakandan help, and thus would be more willing to open up to the Chinese. T'Challa's statescraft and political savvy would have to be on full display. And bringing it back to Shang-Chi, I could imagine a scene where these two, who have the utmost respect for one another as warriors, are discussing ways to avoid conflict, only to know that they'll eventually face one another.

Oh god, this has got to be done!

I definitely haven't thought about casting other characters in the Shang Chi movie, and if Captain Marvel hadn't already picked her up (and wasted her) I would have definitely gone with Gemma Chan as Leiko Wu. But I admittedly haven't watched many Chinese movies and I don't know many actresses. Again, my own ignorance and lack of knowledge showing and I would like to know more. Also, I'm kinda feeling Ludi Lin as Shang Chi right now? I'm gonna watch the Black Mirror episode he was in to get a feel of him (I know he's playing a fighting video game character VR version of Anthony Mackie's character), but he is young and looks young (franchise potential), has a bit of a following, has the MA experience, and can speak Mandarin and Cantonese fluently (as well as English). I just want to know if he can act well enough now to carry a whole movie. He also has said he wants to do it (which means he might not get it as per how these usually go).

The more I look at Ludi, the more I'm feeling it too, bro.

Also, I stumbled upon this blog post about the movie. It's just about making the film less racist and it's mostly stuff we've talked about before, but there's a bit I found interesting:

While I'm not too sure about the execution of this, there is a very good idea behind it. I've talked about making Shang Chi feeling less like a stereotypical kung fu guy by broadening his MA experience, given him gadgets, and making him a bit more James Bond-y. And I know we've come to the conclusion that Shang Chi should have minimal to no powers but now that I do think about it, the duplicate thing could actually be a lot of fun. Fun, complex, and occasionally funny action sequences. Can be used to give him personality (say he got it when he was a kid and he used it to play pranks on his teachers, or how he interacts with said duplicates). Could be that he's a very good spy/intelligence gatherer because and that's why MI-6 notice him (and not just his MA abilities). It allows him to hang with MCU top tier fighters like BP, Bucky and Widow, and you can set him up being over-reliant on the power and loosing it so he can choose to greatly improve his MA skills and become even better. My only hangup is explaining how he got it in the first place. I'd rather make it a science/technological thing than mystical like in the comics, and say his father was conducting some experiments and an accident happened which game him the powers (we could later find out it was intentional or he used it to his advantage). But while the power is unique to the MCU it makes him a bit more generic being another experiment/accident again. However I honestly see the appeal and how it makes him feel less stereotypical.

What do you guys think?

The duplication thing, I'm still hesitant on it. As others have said, it was a one off kind of thing and it hasn't really been developed in the comics. I'll go with the gadgets, but that's as far as I'd go. As for the comments on Shang being a stereotype, I've stated my thoughts on this. Character development should be the focus, while the Kung Fu and martial arts should connect to life.

[Ascended]

The duplication thing, I'm still hesitant on it. As others have said, it was a one off kind of thing and it hasn't really been developed in the comics. I'll go with the gadgets, but that's as far as I'd go. As for the comments on Shang being a stereotype, I've stated my thoughts on this. Character development should be the focus, while the Kung Fu and martial arts should connect to life.

I brought up the duplication thing a while ago, and I still think it could work if they played it right.

But I dont know if it's actually a good idea. We've never had a MCU film about a totally non-Enhanced hero and I'm really into exploring how a dude without powers navigates a world where you can buy a black hole gun from thugs in Queens. I think this would necessitate some gadgets, "secret agent" "007" type stuff, which would be a lot of fun to see. If nothing else, I think they should include the powered weapons, like what Stark designed in the comics.

The stereotype thing.....yeah, I still have no idea how that should be dealt with. Shang *is* a stereotype and that's not at all cool.....but Shang *is* a cool character despite that. Maybe it'll be fine as long as they show that Shang is *more* than the stereotype? Yes, he's an Asian guy who knows martial arts. But that's not all he is, that's just one part of him that happens to match a stupid cliche.

Perhaps if they just make Shang a well rounded character with varied interests and skills, people will let the cliche slide with a minimal amount of grumbling. Or am I being too optimistic?

[XPac]

"Politically neutral" is a tricky term. If you get right down to it, everything has a political message, right? Though I only saw a couple of clips, there was pretty heavy propaganda in Wolf Warrior 2. The Chinese being heroes, saving Africans, fighting against a bad guy who has subtly symbolizes the white powerful colonizer/imperialist, the overtones were there. (Again, to be fair, a lot of countries do this. I mean, c'mon, Rocky IV's propaganda was through the roof!) I think when one of the interviewees mentions that they don't want a film with any overtly political references, that means nothing really weighty and negative. If Shang-Chi talked about China's firewall, references Tiananmen Square, or talks about prisons that house Muslim Uighurs, a Chinese audience would be upset, because they'd see the argument as one-sided. For mainland Chinese, there are reasons behind these things. Some would acknowledge it's negative. But still, it's a weighty, difficult thing. Saving Africans in Wolf Warrior 2 may be one-sided, but hey, that depicts China in a more positive light.



I see your point. It reminds me a lot of that post-credits scene in Black Panther when T'Challa opens up Wakanda to the U.N. or how his father wanted to help bombing victims back during Civil War. T'Challa has been opening Wakanda up to the rest of the world. I could definitely see him opening up to Nigandans and offering economic and infrastructure aid. In my storyline, though, I still think there could be Chinese/Wakandan tension. For Nigandans, Wakanda finally opening up could be too little, too late. Erasing centuries of tensions between the two countries wouldn't occur over night. Niganda wouldn't readily be accepting of Wakandan help, and thus would be more willing to open up to the Chinese. T'Challa's statescraft and political savvy would have to be on full display. And bringing it back to Shang-Chi, I could imagine a scene where these two, who have the utmost respect for one another as warriors, are discussing ways to avoid conflict, only to know that they'll eventually face one another.

Oh god, this has got to be done!



The more I look at Ludi, the more I'm feeling it too, bro.



The duplication thing, I'm still hesitant on it. As others have said, it was a one off kind of thing and it hasn't really been developed in the comics. I'll go with the gadgets, but that's as far as I'd go. As for the comments on Shang being a stereotype, I've stated my thoughts on this. Character development should be the focus, while the Kung Fu and martial arts should connect to life.

The problem with the whole duplication power is that that it sufferes from the ninja rule of diminishing returns. 5 or more and they essentially become canon fodder, which ultimately makes Shang look bad. During Time Runs Out, Old Man Steve was able to fight a Shang clone toe to toe and quite possibly even won the fight. Regular Steve is one thing... but old man Steve?

It's a useful power on paper, but ultimately I think it waters him down as a fighter since he'll be taking far more loses due to his clones jobbing.

[Tien Long]

I brought up the duplication thing a while ago, and I still think it could work if they played it right.

But I dont know if it's actually a good idea. We've never had a MCU film about a totally non-Enhanced hero and I'm really into exploring how a dude without powers navigates a world where you can buy a black hole gun from thugs in Queens. I think this would necessitate some gadgets, "secret agent" "007" type stuff, which would be a lot of fun to see. If nothing else, I think they should include the powered weapons, like what Stark designed in the comics.

The stereotype thing.....yeah, I still have no idea how that should be dealt with. Shang *is* a stereotype and that's not at all cool.....but Shang *is* a cool character despite that. Maybe it'll be fine as long as they show that Shang is *more* than the stereotype? Yes, he's an Asian guy who knows martial arts. But that's not all he is, that's just one part of him that happens to match a stupid cliche.

Perhaps if they just make Shang a well rounded character with varied interests and skills, people will let the cliche slide with a minimal amount of grumbling. Or am I being too optimistic?

Keep rising and advancing that spirit, bro .

[H-E-D]

I should add that I'll be very, very surprised to see the duplication power show up. Even though I like it.

[DigiCom]

Shang-Chi's biggest problem is not that he's a kung fu master. It's that the best story you could tell about him (ordinary fighter is recruited by British Intelligence to defeat an Asian mastermind) was already done on screen. The good news is, it was in 1974:



But I think it could still be salvageable because people often forget Shang's origin. It's not that he's a Master of Kung Fu™. It's that he's a Master of Kung Fu™ trained by his father. The best focus might be not on what he can do, but why he does it. We've never seen an MCU film with an Asian lead, yes... but we've also never seen an MCU movie where the lead starts out as a villain.

Picture this... SHIELD agent Leiko Wu is assigned to infiltrate the Ten Rings. She succeeds in doing so but discovers that the Mandarin's "most trusted bodyguard" (and also, apparently, his son) has begun showing doubts about his father's agenda. Romance, intrigue, soul-searching, and a big MA battle in the third act.

The story would be about Shang's turn to heroism. The fact that he can kick a man's heart out through his back would be secondary, at best.

[Ascended]

Keep rising and advancing that spirit, bro .

Think it would be that bad, huh?

Yeah....you're probably right. Sorry, I had a unusual case of "faith in humanity" last night.

[Blind Wedjat]

The duplication thing, I'm still hesitant on it. As others have said, it was a one off kind of thing and it hasn't really been developed in the comics. I'll go with the gadgets, but that's as far as I'd go. As for the comments on Shang being a stereotype, I've stated my thoughts on this. Character development should be the focus, while the Kung Fu and martial arts should connect to life.

I brought up the duplication thing a while ago, and I still think it could work if they played it right.

But I dont know if it's actually a good idea. We've never had a MCU film about a totally non-Enhanced hero and I'm really into exploring how a dude without powers navigates a world where you can buy a black hole gun from thugs in Queens. I think this would necessitate some gadgets, "secret agent" "007" type stuff, which would be a lot of fun to see. If nothing else, I think they should include the powered weapons, like what Stark designed in the comics.

Honestly the duplicate thing is very unlikely. Like it's not part of his iconography, and if they do it I think it definitely should be part of his character arc (i.e., can he feel it if a duplicate dies?). I also think if he does have it he'll eventually lose it. That feels extremely likely for me. I just think it's a good idea but if he's got powers that don't centre around weird kung fu myths.

The stereotype thing.....yeah, I still have no idea how that should be dealt with. Shang *is* a stereotype and that's not at all cool.....but Shang *is* a cool character despite that. Maybe it'll be fine as long as they show that Shang is *more* than the stereotype? Yes, he's an Asian guy who knows martial arts. But that's not all he is, that's just one part of him that happens to match a stupid cliche.

Perhaps if they just make Shang a well rounded character with varied interests and skills, people will let the cliche slide with a minimal amount of grumbling. Or am I being too optimistic?

I think if Dave Callaham and Daniel Destin Cretton want to do something smart with this, they should be some level of self-awareness in the film. I do agree that making Shang a well rounded character just as good as all the other MCU protagonists and main heroes with a clearly defined character arc, relatable/good personality and romantic interest (while getting rid of the more problematic stuff) is the best way to handle him, but I think the film also needs to be aware he's a stereotype and play around with that idea without being offensive. It's hard to do and it takes smart writing to pull it off.

Black Panther is the only film I can think of in the MCU that's done it (but not much) with M'Baku. They got rid of the problematic and racist stuff (ape suit, Man-Ape name, some personality traits), but the film and M'Baku were both aware he was a stereotype and played around with that idea. That scene of him making the vegetarian joke became so popular not just because it was funny, but because he intentionally played on a white man's idea (and the audience) on what he would see him as - the savage African brute. He intimidates Ross, the other Wakandans and the audience with cannibalistic threats, only to flip that entire idea on his head by joking about, and then laughing about it in their faces knowing he got them. And that joke symbolises the character arc he has in the film and change of perception he's granted: he's no longer that big, scary tribalistic villain you thought he was in the beginning of the film, but actually a funny, noble man capable of being honorable.

The Shang Chi film would greatly benefit from having that kind of writing for Shang Chi (and maybe his father too). Yes, he's a stereotype, but Shang Chi should be aware of that. Knowing that he's an Asian man in a Western world that knows kung fu, and he's going to be viewed a certain way because of it.

Shang-Chi's biggest problem is not that he's a kung fu master. It's that the best story you could tell about him (ordinary fighter is recruited by British Intelligence to defeat an Asian mastermind) was already done on screen. The good news is, it was in 1974:

But I think it could still be salvageable because people often forget Shang's origin. It's not that he's a Master of Kung Fu™. It's that he's a Master of Kung Fu™ trained by his father. The best focus might be not on what he can do, but why he does it. We've never seen an MCU film with an Asian lead, yes... but we've also never seen an MCU movie where the lead starts out as a villain.

Picture this... SHIELD agent Leiko Wu is assigned to infiltrate the Ten Rings. She succeeds in doing so but discovers that the Mandarin's "most trusted bodyguard" (and also, apparently, his son) has begun showing doubts about his father's agenda. Romance, intrigue, soul-searching, and a big MA battle in the third act.

The story would be about Shang's turn to heroism. The fact that he can kick a man's heart out through his back would be secondary, at best.

I think it being similar to Enter the Dragon can still be a good thing if the film is at least good. I don't doubt people would mind a Marvel movie being a throwback to those 70s kung fu films or a Bruce Lee flick. I mean they can't escape it: Shang Chi is a superhero Bruce Lee. Paying homage the right way will definitely earn them some points.

I kinda wanted to save the "most trusted bodyguard" thing for Cat with the idea that Zheng Zu raised Cat in secret as a villain and raised Shang Chi openly as a good husband and father, but plans on bring Shang over to 'the dark side', but I can see that working for Shang Chi too when you put it that way.

[DigiCom]

I kinda wanted to save the "most trusted bodyguard" thing for Cat with the idea that Zheng Zu raised Cat in secret as a villain and raised Shang Chi openly as a good husband and father, but plans on bring Shang over to 'the dark side', but I can see that working for Shang Chi too when you put it that way.

That was just me being cute... It's a line from Enter the Dragon.

[Blind Wedjat]

That was just me being cute... It's a line from Enter the Dragon.

Oh...but I really did pitch that idea a few pages back. Shang Chi and Shen Keui both being sons of Zheng Zu, with Shang being the son and security chief of good globalist Zheng Zu and Cat being the secret son and right hand assassin of the evil leader of the Si-Fan. Two sides of the same coin. Yin and yang. Didn't realise how much this sounds like that Chinese movie Shadow (which was fantastic btw).

[Blind Wedjat]

Whatever happens though, I just need the fight choreographer to be the guy from this show, and I hope of Marvel goes for an actor that doesn't have much MA experience they give him a lot of time to train. Andrew Koji to my knowledge didn't have any or very little action experience, but he moves just as convincingly as Joe Taslim (a legitimate martial artist from The Raid) because he trained for six months.

His character Ah Sahm (guy with the beard that eventually loses) went full Bruce Lee at 2:07 and I need to see that in the film.

[Blind Wedjat]

Ludi Lin is on the shortlist!

https://mobile.twitter.com/_CharlesM...56380782743552
http://thathashtagshow.com/2019/06/1...hi-short-list/

Edit: Alongside Ross Butler (13 Reasons Why, Riverdale)

https://mcuexchange.com/shang-chi-do...di-lin-report/

Donnie Yen is also rumoured to be sought out to play the "wise old statesman"