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  1. #361
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punisher007 View Post
    Killmonger overall was a FAR better character in the film than he was in the comics, as were Nakia and Okoye as well.

    Heck even Sir Ben Kingsley's Mandarin was pretty cool up until the dumb twist. So it's simple I think, make Mandarin a villain who happens to be Chinese, instead of a "Chinese villain." Heck maybe throw in a couple of other heroic Chinese characters if you're worried about China's reaction, etc.
    Interesting. Yeah, Chinese audiences are concerned about the Yellow Peril thing. Personally, I think it's a small fraction, but a friend of mine from China was telling me about some of the comments left by Chinese netizens. There are disgruntled feelings over Fu Manchu depictions. Also, that whole father vs. son dynamic, that unsettles some Chinese. A son fighting a father? We might think that makes for good Shakespearean drama, but it may not sit well with Chinese who feel filial piety is super important. (On a side note, there's a lot of buzz with the Mulan remake. Many are excited, though there's still a few who feel that the cultural details are a little off. Mulan was set in the north, so why is there southern architecture in the trailers? In any case I digress).

    Like I said before and has been pointed out, Marvel is definitely going to update these characters, and make them more culturally sensitive. The trick is, it can't be just in appearances. Rather, Marvel has to handle that father/son dynamic carefully. Like I said previously, the Mandarin has to be depicted as a sympathetic figure. Yeah, he's a world conqueror, but everything he has done, the power, the wealth, all of that, was for his son. That caring attitude has to be there. In the same way, if Shang rejects the Mandarin, he has to show regret. He has to show that it hurts him that he's going against his father's wishes, since at the end of the day, he wants to have that loving relationship with his father. If Marvel plays it that way, they can get the father/son dynamic, and appeal to all (Chinese, non-Chinese, Asian, non-Asian) audiences.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  2. #362
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    I wont pretend to try and lecture Chinese people on their own culture/values. I'm not nearly that egotistical. However, I would say that expecting a company like Disney, which aspires for a global reach, to be 100% accurate is, unrealistic. They'll maybe try to be as respectful as they feel they can be, while trying to appeal to a wider audience. Whether that's good enough for you, well that's your own persona POV and fair enough, I can completely respect that.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Interesting. Yeah, Chinese audiences are concerned about the Yellow Peril thing. Personally, I think it's a small fraction, but a friend of mine from China was telling me about some of the comments left by Chinese netizens. There are disgruntled feelings over Fu Manchu depictions. Also, that whole father vs. son dynamic, that unsettles some Chinese. A son fighting a father? We might think that makes for good Shakespearean drama, but it may not sit well with Chinese who feel filial piety is super important. (On a side note, there's a lot of buzz with the Mulan remake. Many are excited, though there's still a few who feel that the cultural details are a little off. Mulan was set in the north, so why is there southern architecture in the trailers? In any case I digress).

    Like I said before and has been pointed out, Marvel is definitely going to update these characters, and make them more culturally sensitive. The trick is, it can't be just in appearances. Rather, Marvel has to handle that father/son dynamic carefully. Like I said previously, the Mandarin has to be depicted as a sympathetic figure. Yeah, he's a world conqueror, but everything he has done, the power, the wealth, all of that, was for his son. That caring attitude has to be there. In the same way, if Shang rejects the Mandarin, he has to show regret. He has to show that it hurts him that he's going against his father's wishes, since at the end of the day, he wants to have that loving relationship with his father. If Marvel plays it that way, they can get the father/son dynamic, and appeal to all (Chinese, non-Chinese, Asian, non-Asian) audiences.
    That would be kinda an understatement, the social media is already led off the wrong way. It's not simply Fu Manchu, Mandarin is also considered with heavy Fu Manchu influence and Shang-Chi himself is also considered offensive with his early Fu Manchu ties.
    Sure every Marvel character with a long history has their fair share of problemetic past due to time eras, but in Shang's case, his whole creation got dug up and got paid a lot of negative attention.

    The Son VS Father elements are far more complicated than your think, modern Chinese audience like the kinslaying drama like every average viewer but the thing is what this whole deal stands for?
    In comics, Shang-Chi defeated his dad for the "good guys" who are usually westerners, it would really give people a bad impression.
    Last edited by MaximoffTrash; 07-29-2019 at 05:53 AM.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    That would be kinda an understatement, the social media is already led off the wrong way. It's not simply Fu Manchu, Mandarin is also considered with heavy Fu Manchu influence and Shang-Chi himself is also considered offensive with his early Fu Manchu ties.
    Sure every Marvel character with a long history has their fair share of problemetic past due to time eras, but in Shang's case, his whole creation got dug up and got paid a lot of negative attention.

    The Son VS Father elements are far more complicated than your think, modern Chinese audience like the kinslaying drama like every average viewer but the thing is what this whole deal stands for?
    In comics, Shang-Chi defeated his dad for the "good guys" who are usually westerners, it would really give people a bad impression.
    That kinda reminded me of a couple of pages from the old MOKF series. This isn't the first time that Shang-Chi's Chinese identity and loyalty have been called into question:




    "Betray us"? "White one"? "Britisher"? Yeah, Shang's been called these things before. Still keeps fighting bro .

    Okay, okay, enough with the grand statements. There are a couple of potentially, practical things Marvel can do to deal with the concerns. Yes, he has worked for a "foreign" group, but he is still Chinese. Tell the Chinese audience that he was born and raised in Henan (which is the modern way to say the "Honan" that was always in the comics) and that adds legitimacy. Indeed, my friend from China was interested to when I told her that Shang's from Henan. Maybe have him work for a Chinese division of S.H.I.E.L.D.....like S.P.E.A.R. from the comics. Have him on the streets of Shanghai or Beijing, living life as a real Chinese person amongst the Chinese. Draw the distinction that the Mandarin isn't representative of all Chinese, but just a single Chinese person. And I still think that just a couple of updates here and there in terms of design can do wonders.

    At the end of the day, I still have hope for the movie. Weibo critics will die down, if that first trailer knocks it out of the park.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  5. #365
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    The most basic practice would be using S.P.E.A.R or other Chinese-based Organization as the guys behind Shang. Chinese like to rant and complain about the government provided it's coming from themselves. At least that is the common sentiment in social media.
    I think it's important that it doesn't give off the vibe they are judging a person by pure Western standard/perspective. Even though at times Western/Chinese values in certain areas are basically the same. Western characters can be participants, but not the ultimate judge.

  6. #366
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie View Post
    I think that's an oversimplification of the issue. There's truth to it on the Shang Chi side, but you gotta understand, the biggest issue they have is with The Mandarin, who regardless of what Marvel has done, is still heavily rooted in VERY VERY VERY racist stereotypes and caricatures.
    The Mandarin name aside, the character has been pretty much a generic villainous half-Chinese businessmen for over a decade now in the comics. Even before that I would say the Mandarin has mostly been portrayed more as an Asian Doctor Doom.

    In the movie they will probably just copy the modern comics and have him be Zhang Tong a influential wealthy well connected Hong Kong businessman but secretly be legendary immortal terrorist the Mandarin.

    If the Mandarin is Shang Chi's father in the movies then he is probably taking the place of Temugin. Marvel could just have Shang raised and trained in a monastery by shaolin monks like the Manadrin's son in the comics.

  7. #367
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    The Son VS Father elements are far more complicated than your think, modern Chinese audience like the kinslaying drama like every average viewer but the thing is what this whole deal stands for?
    In comics, Shang-Chi defeated his dad for the "good guys" who are usually westerners, it would really give people a bad impression.
    I think a easy fix for that is just showing Shang's dad as being as much a threat to Asia as he is for the rest of the world. Shang isn't just fighting him to protect Western interests but fighting him to protect Asia and the world at large from his dangerous father.

    Mandarin in the marvel universe employs a diverse group of followers across the globe so it won't be like Shang will just be fighting fellow Asian people all the time.

    I think the heart of the father vs son battle should be identity. Shang forging his own identity outside of the man his father intends him to be. Rebelling against being the heir of a terrorist organisation and forging a new path for himself.

  8. #368
    Incredible Member Mr.Majestic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    I know it is partially important Marvel gets on China's good side but a lot of the stuff I've seen coming from that end is troubling (hoping not to offend anyone by saying this). part of the controversy revolves around Chinese people online thinking both Simu and Awkwafina are "ugly" particularly because of their monolid or almond-shaped eyes, high cheekbones and slightly darker toned skin. Some don't think Simu is as good looking as the other Marvel actors such as Hemsworth, Evans, Boseman etc. As you can imagine this surprised me considering I think Simu is very handsome and looks like a Marvel actor already, and Awkwafina is at least cute to me and I wouldn't call her "ugly" at all, so I did some digging. Turns out it's China's beauty standards at play, which tend to favour bigger, rounder, double-lid eyes, very fair, "white" flawless skin (something called 'clean face') and an oval shaped, more delicate face (without sharp features like high cheekbones apparently).
    Simu has strong features and does look very northern-y, almost Korean-like and right now the near-feminine K-pop look is very popular in China. However things change, even though South Korea is the birthplace of that soft K-pop look the biggest movie star over there right now is Ma Dong-Seok/Don Lee, that's right Marvel's new Gilgamesh. He is starring in hit after hit and is quite the low-key sex symbol in SK. He is in no way, shape or form a pretty boy. Tastes change and I believe China will eventually warm up to Simu. On the other hand Awkwafina will be a harder sell. To be honest I don't find her attractive either. However if she goes in more as the tomboy sister of Shang it might work.

    They really find Simu Liu too dark skinned? Really? He's pretty light compared to Southern or Guangdong types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Even beyond M'Baku, Black Panther still had some pretty offensive stuff. In the 90s run by Priest, the Dora Milaje--Nakia and Okoye--were overly sexualised and underage "brides in training" for T'Challa
    Man I hated Christopher Priest's run on Black Panther but since I'm a huge T'Challa mark I own the whole run. There's some stuff I appreciated like the vibranium weave suit but other stuff were pretty cringe, the Dora Milaje, the all-black villain squad, the White Panthers...

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximoffTrash View Post
    The most basic practice would be using S.P.E.A.R or other Chinese-based Organization as the guys behind Shang. Chinese like to rant and complain about the government provided it's coming from themselves. At least that is the common sentiment in social media. I think it's important that it doesn't give off the vibe they are judging a person by pure Western standard/perspective. Even though at times Western/Chinese values in certain areas are basically the same. Western characters can be participants, but not the ultimate judge.
    I personally think they should just make The Mandarin the de-facto ruler of Madripoor, make Tony Leung speak in Cantonese and English only and have him plot to control the World. Then have Shang show up as a young Chinese man who was born in China but raised in America who RETURNS to China to rediscover his roots and defend his homeland. Make it an unapologetic love letter to China's people and land. Beautiful landscape shots, courageous people and all that jazz.

  9. #369
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    Well, it doesn't have to be a love letter, it just have to be good in quality and considerate in certain aspects.
    I mean, it can easily fall into an awkward zone if they overdo it. (Like trying too hard to have this classic Hong Kong/Chinese vibe to the point it feels the people are living in the 50s of China or something. )

  10. #370
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    I know it is partially important Marvel gets on China's good side but a lot of the stuff I've seen coming from that end is troubling (hoping not to offend anyone by saying this). part of the controversy revolves around Chinese people online thinking both Simu and Awkwafina are "ugly" particularly because of their monolid or almond-shaped eyes, high cheekbones and slightly darker toned skin. Some don't think Simu is as good looking as the other Marvel actors such as Hemsworth, Evans, Boseman etc. As you can imagine this surprised me considering I think Simu is very handsome and looks like a Marvel actor already, and Awkwafina is at least cute to me and I wouldn't call her "ugly" at all, so I did some digging. Turns out it's China's beauty standards at play, which tend to favour bigger, rounder, double-lid eyes, very fair, "white" flawless skin (something called 'clean face') and an oval shaped, more delicate face (without sharp features like high cheekbones apparently). And it seems to be a pretty big deal in China because online users have accused foreign brands and agencies of trying to insult their national beauty when they cast actors/actresses and choose models that don't fit the above description (there was a whole scandal revolving a Zara model with the other features as well as having freckles and these Weibo users went wild about it).
    Marvel should just keep doing what they are doing.

    Some native Chinese messy perception of beauty is a rabbit hole not worth going down.

    Marvel were lucky Amandla Stenberg walked away from Black Panther and avoided the potential colorism storm that would of been sparked if she was cast as Shuri.
    Last edited by chamber-music; 07-31-2019 at 02:34 AM.

  11. #371
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Hey, Shang's getting some recognition on some of the top YouTube comic channels. Like how Variant Comics did an "Origin of Shang-Chi" episode. A good highlight of some of the best aspects of Shang's origins (his fighting skills, the dynamic he has with his father) and some of the dated ones (the over the top skin color of Shang).

    Hope to see Variant's "History of" when the movie comes out!
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  12. #372
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Some pretty cool fan art featuring the main man



  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Some pretty cool fan art featuring the main man


    Y'know, the more I look, the more I like. The more I see this as being a suitable look for Shang in the movie. Perhaps there could be a bit more sleeve to cover the shoulder and I'd like the hair to be longer or spikier.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  14. #374
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    So, Asian Boss posted this clip concerning how Chinese view Simu Liu's appearance for the upcoming Shang-Chi film:

    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  15. #375
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    And here are my thoughts (and Simu Liu's thoughts) on it:

    - I'm a huge fan of Asian Boss. They don't pretend to be the comprehensive, definitive voice on all Asian matters. Rather, they provide that "person on the street" view of a topic that honestly not a lot of people outside of Asia get.

    - That being said, seeing those interviews did hurt. Now, I totally understand where they are coming from. China has different standards of beauty and they want the best depicted out there. Because outside of China, there aren't a lot of examples out there. More importantly, Chinese wanted themselves to have a say in who gets into the movie, not just Hollywood.

    - As a counter, Simu Liu posted this response on his Facebook:

    OOF 3.5 AND they pronounced my name wrong!

    On a serious note, I think this is a very teachable moment. I've had people question me my entire life. A lot of teachers thought I'd never amount to anything, a lot of producers, directors, writers AND costars have questioned my acting ability, and I've been rejected from countless conservatories, grants, programs, etc. I've been second-guessed at every single possible step of my career.

    The reason why I'm still standing is because I'm singularly focused, I have the utmost belief in my abilities and I refuse to let the opinions of others define me. In your careers, in your lives, no matter where you go, you will always encounter voices of doubt. Some will come from people who are frighteningly close to you. Are you going to let those voices own you?

    That isn't to say you can't have bad days, and that you shouldn't use your support systems and talk about how you feel like I'm doing right now. I've never been called ugly so many times in my entire life! For me, it's never been about trying to shut the voices out - it's a fruitless effort (especially if people happen to be making Youtube videos about it lol). Rather, it's about learning to let the voices exist and be OKAY with it. I'm still doing my thing, and I'm still over the moon happy I get this amazing opportunity.

    I'm not going a few voices of doubt ruin that for me, and neither should you, in whatever you are pursuing in your life.

    (I also seriously question the integrity of the channel that puts this up LOL)
    The hope is Simu's acting will win audiences over. Class act right there. We're with you all the way bro!
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

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