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  1. #256
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Hey all. While we're still figuring out who is going to star in Shang-Chi (crossing the fingers we get an announcement this Saturday!) just wanted to share with you an article over on Deadline concerning Asian-Americans and superhero movies. A fair chunk of it is devoted to the upcoming Shang-Chi film. It covers a lot of the expectations, fears, criticisms, and hopes of Shang-Chi. The complete link is here:

    https://deadline.com/2019/07/shang-c...6132/#comments

    Here are some interesting points and my thoughts:

    But of all the Asian characters in the Marvel canon, why is Shang-Chi as the Asian entry into the MCU the best choice?

    Jen Bartel, an illustrator and comic artist who is best known for work with Marvel, Disney, and as the co-creator and artist of Image Comics’ Blackbird points out: “Kung fu films have resonated with a wide range of audiences for many decades now — a character like Shang-Chi, who specializes in martial arts, specifically kung fu, could potentially bring some of that mainstream appeal while simultaneously reclaiming that piece of our culture for Asian audiences.”

    In the comics, Shang-Chi is the son of a China-based globalist who raised and educated his progeny in his reclusive China compound, closed off to the outside world. The son is trained in the martial arts and developed unsurpassed skills. He is eventually introduced to the outside world to do his father’s bidding, and then has to come to grips with the fact his revered father might not be the humanitarian he has claimed to be.

    Chhibber says that the forthcoming Shang-Chi adaptation is a classic superhero created and written by non-Asians, and that the movie “is an incredible way to take ownership of a character with a complicated history.”
    I like that idea concerning Kung Fu. Maybe its popularity has died down in the last couple of years, but it's still known. Seeing an Asian using martial arts hasn't been done in America for a while. In terms of "the complicated history" (more on that later), I support Asians writing Asian characters. We're seeing that with Greg Pak and his rendition of Shang-Chi. He's giving a characterization of Shang that certain non-Asian writers may not know. Still, I'm always on the fence with regards to ideas of ownership. Of course, people should be proud of their cultures and be representative of that culture. We should have more of that. But some of the best expressions of culture don't necessarily have to be from the originators. I think some good representations of Shang have been written by non-Asians.

    However, Noguchi has some reservations about the character to lead the first Asian superhero pic. “Shang-Chi is basically every ’70s stereotype about Asians all wrapped up in one big Bruce Lee Lightman of Kung Fu personification,” he said. “I don’t know that I can look at the character from an objective point of view so I’m not entirely sure he is an appropriate entry. I feel like Jubilee, Amadeus Cho, or Nico Minoru are characters that aren’t dripping in Asian stereotypes and wouldn’t need some mystical Asian background to justify their existence in a movie.”

    His concerns are valid considering the current Hollywood landscape, where audiences are looking for authenticity and will be quick to check any and all mistakes. Apprehensions about the portrayal of Shang-Chi are definitely top of mind for many as characters can fall into stereotypical tropes and not get the shine they deserve.

    “I think every Asian person worries about being viewed as a caricature, and because there are so few positive representations of Asian heroes specifically, there is a heavy burden for Shang-Chi to be that for all of us,” adds Bartel. “Unfortunately, it’s simply not possible to do that with just one single character as Asians and Asian-Americans are not a monolith, so my hope is that he is allowed to be flawed in the same ways that non-Asian characters are often afforded in media.”

    Chow points out characters of color created by white men have the tendency to become walking stereotypes. “That was true for Shang-Chi, who was Marvel’s attempt to ride the kung fu cinema wave the way they used Luke Cage to parrot Blaxploitation — I mean, his father is Fu Manchu for chrissakes.”

    “However, when you give creators of different backgrounds the opportunities to write these stories, you’re able to move beyond the surface,” Chow continues. “Like what Greg Pak is currently doing with the character in the comics. That’s why I don’t have any apprehension for the upcoming movie. Marvel Studios is smart to hire Asian Americans to write and direct the movie, which allows us to reclaim and recontextualize a lot of the Orientalism inherent to the character.
    Just covers a lot of the things we've talked about before, that Shang is rooted in stereotypes from the 1970s and there exists a plethora of other Asian characters that aren't. Still, maybe he can become flawed and human in a way. That's the way we can avoid those caricatures. Having Asian Americans involved can perhaps recontextualize those things. I'm digging the idea that people are hopeful in the way Marvel can handle this, though. Posters on this thread have been hopeful as well.

    For Shang-Chi, Chow points out whoever is cast in the lead “will automatically become a movie star the way Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, and Chris Pratt shot straight to the A-list, despite not having the pre-Marvel résumé.”

    “I hope that this opens us up to a wide world of bringing marginalized people to the screen,” said Chhibber. “We have characters like Kamala Khan or Pravitr Prabhakar (dear Sony, please include Pravitr in the next Spider-Verse movie, thank you) who are ready to go! All steps forward in the fight for representation are beneficial, and so hopefully this opens the door to a more inclusive notion of Asian representation.”


    “My hope is always that any representation just leads to more — more variety, more characters, and a wide range of stories being told and AAPI identities being explored,” said Kuhn. “When you take those first steps, there’s always so much pressure to be all things to all people — I felt that way when my Heroine Complex series debuted, that it somehow had to be everything for all Asian American women everywhere, especially those of us who love superheroes, because I know what it’s like to desperately need representation, to feel like you’ve been waiting your whole life for it.”
    Can the film rocket someone to stardom? Will it turn Ludi Lin or Yonson An into a superstar? I'm not too sure. MCU films have worked their magic with other actors in the past, but the hurdle is harder to overcome with Asian-American actors. In any case, I hope it does. And yes, I definitely hope that Shang-Chi opens the door for other Asian characters, whether its Amadeus Cho or Kamala Khan!
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  2. #257
    Incredible Member Mr.Majestic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelC View Post
    The simple truth is, comicbooks are the land of martial artists and nerdy geniuses and ninjas and greedy businessmen and crimelords and wise spiritual mentors. And if Asians aren't allowed to be any of those things, well, then you either end up writing them so bland that they get pushed aside by white characters who shamelessly embody those tropes, or you banish them from comics altogether.
    Love your comment here bud. Been saying that for a while. An Asian guy can't be all these stereotypical things because that would be wrong! Well can he be the love interest? No. Can he play the jock? No. Can he be the leader? No. So what happens? Total erasure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Hoping if there are any "special" websites where could watch the series. .
    Personally used torrents to watch Warrior. I also got Grisse but I haven't watched that yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    I don't see why he has to be restricted to just kung fu. Thrown in some Jeet Kune Do (Jun Fan), Sanshou (Chinese kickboxing used by the military), Muay Thai, Capoeira, Taekwondo, Escrima and Krav Maga alongside the more traditional stuff like Wing Chun, Xing Yi Quan and Baguazhang.
    Please no Capoiera, would look goofy, or Krav Maga, it's basically just hand-to-hand military training. BJJ or at least some grappling would be cool as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    For those not familiar, she's one of the Immortal Weapons and is to her city what Iron Fist was to K'un L'un. Yes she's an Iron Fist character but it wouldn't be the first time the MCU used characters from different franchises for the films.
    Please no mention of K'un L'un in this. It has that Iron Fist stink on it. Bring in Madripoor instead, as an evil mirror version of Singapore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    The duplication thing, I'm still hesitant on it. As others have said, it was a one off kind of thing and it hasn't really been developed in the comics. I'll go with the gadgets, but that's as far as I'd go. As for the comments on Shang being a stereotype, I've stated my thoughts on this. Character development should be the focus, while the Kung Fu and martial arts should connect to life.
    I hate that Duplication ability as well. I've been thinking about it and I have a solution. Have Shang get his hands on some Stark/Wakandan tech that creates mirror images of himself a la Enter the Dragon. Fits in with both the ability and as an homage to the man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Whatever happens though, I just need the fight choreographer to be the guy from this show, and I hope of Marvel goes for an actor that doesn't have much MA experience they give him a lot of time to train. Andrew Koji to my knowledge didn't have any or very little action experience, but he moves just as convincingly as Joe Taslim (a legitimate martial artist from The Raid) because he trained for six months.
    The fight scenes are solid on Warrior but I want better. I'm talking final fight in Flash Point level ass kickery.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Now part of me is "Donnie Yen"'d out. Fast and the Furious, Star Wars, XXX, he's been in a ton of American films already.
    Donnie wasn't in any Fast and the Furious movies IIRC. Tony Jaa and Joe Taslim have appeared in the series however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Honestly, this just popped into my head a couple of minutes ago. The question is who could be the henchmen of Shang-Chi's father in the movie. Zaran, the Cat, and Razorfist are all great choices
    Personally would love it if someone like Crossfire was the main baddie but at the end you discover there's someone pulling his strings... the Mandarin! Also I would want Shang to discover that the Mandarin wasn't truly his father but rather the kind guardsman that happened to train him. Preferably played by Sammo Hung. Father fighting Son is a cool dynamic in Western tales but in the East such stories are anathema.

  3. #258
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Just unveiled at Comic-Con.


  4. #259
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    I forgot about this the last time movie villains were discussed, but aside from Cat and Zheng Zu, I want friggin' Gorgon. That would be sick.
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  5. #260
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    I honestly hope that is not what he looks like in the movie. I want the more modern costume with the gauntlets.

  6. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Just unveiled at Comic-Con.

    This costume lacks modernity. I hope the movie Shang looks different and Hasbro makes the changes accordingly.

  7. #262
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Majestic View Post
    Love your comment here bud. Been saying that for a while. An Asian guy can't be all these stereotypical things because that would be wrong! Well can he be the love interest? No. Can he play the jock? No. Can he be the leader? No. So what happens? Total erasure.
    I think things are changing, especially since last we discussed this Majestic. Either he's a Kung Fu badass or nothing at all. Damned if you are, damned if you aren't kind of deal, right? Still, this past year has proven that Asian men can be more than just the Kung Fu badass. Films like Crazy, Rich Asians or Always Be My Maybe have depicted romantic Asian men (granted two VERY different Asian leading men to be sure, but still romantic in a way).

    So, people are ready for a romantic Asian male lead now. Maybe we'll see it with Shang (who can still be a Kung Fu badass).

    Please no Capoiera, would look goofy, or Krav Maga, it's basically just hand-to-hand military training. BJJ or at least some grappling would be cool as well.
    Capoeira can be cool and effective. As a former practitioner, I've been on the receiving end of some wicked attacks. (I'll never forget the time my mestre scissored me down with his legs a la Cung Le.) It may not be Chinese, but if the film wants to depict Shang as being open to all styles, not just Kung Fu, yeah that would be cool.



    The fight scenes are solid on Warrior but I want better. I'm talking final fight in Flash Point level ass kickery.

    I respect Donnie for his introduction of MMA in movies. Furthermore, I like his depiction of traditional Kung Fu. But for me, he seems a bit too lanky and spidery in his MMA movements. Don't know, just a pet peeve of mine.

    Donnie wasn't in any Fast and the Furious movies IIRC. Tony Jaa and Joe Taslim have appeared in the series however.
    I apologize! Thank you for the correction!

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    I forgot about this the last time movie villains were discussed, but aside from Cat and Zheng Zu, I want friggin' Gorgon. That would be sick.
    It would be cool. Loved their match in the comics. Still, don't know how it would translate into the movies since Shang-Chi lost those times.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomPerson View Post
    I honestly hope that is not what he looks like in the movie. I want the more modern costume with the gauntlets.
    Agreed. The look is too 80s/90s Karate fighters for me. Like Quick Kick from G.I. Joe. A more modern look would suffice.
    Last edited by Tien Long; 07-19-2019 at 05:45 PM.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  8. #263
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    I'm guessing some of us have probably read this already, but here's what Jim Starlin had to say about Fu Manchu in Shang-Chi:

    https://comicbook.com/marvel/2019/07...nchu-in-movie/

    " In a separate interview elsewhere at the convention, Starlin elaborated on his Fu Manchu thoughts more, admitting it was embarrassing how exploitive the original Fu Manchu books were before Marvel temporarily purchased the rights to the character.

    "Easier to say what I would not like to say out of Shang-Chi and that's Fu Manchu," Starlin told Popcorn Talk. "I'm hoping and I'm pretty sure they're gonna cut him out of the whole thing...I had never read a Fu Manchu book before we did Shang-Chi."

    "I think it was Stan [Lee] or Roy [Thomas], they bought the rights to it from the Rohmer family," the icon continued. "It was only after I got done with the first did Larry Hamma, a friend of mine, say, 'Have you ever read one of these books?' and he gave me one the next day, and I was going, "Ehhh, jeez," it's kind of embarrassing."
    Pretty interesting to see how writers back then were aware of how discriminatory and racist Fu Manchu could be. (It raises the question why there wasn't any attempt to perhaps change Shang's father in a way back then).

    Still, I get no Fu Manchu in the film. But no Shang-Chi's father? Missing out on a defining and key element of the character if this is done.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  9. #264
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Via Hasbro's panel today.


  10. #265
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Via Hasbro's panel today.

    Master of Kung-Fu indeed .

  11. #266
    Incredible Member Mr.Majestic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    I think things are changing, especially since last we discussed this Majestic. Either he's a Kung Fu badass or nothing at all. Damned if you are, damned if you aren't kind of deal, right? Still, this past year has proven that Asian men can be more than just the Kung Fu badass. Films like Crazy, Rich Asians or Always Be My Maybe have depicted romantic Asian men (granted two VERY different Asian leading men to be sure, but still romantic in a way).

    So, people are ready for a romantic Asian male lead now. Maybe we'll see it with Shang (who can still be a Kung Fu badass).

    Capoeira can be cool and effective. As a former practitioner, I've been on the receiving end of some wicked attacks. (I'll never forget the time my mestre scissored me down with his legs a la Cung Le.) It may not be Chinese, but if the film wants to depict Shang as being open to all styles, not just Kung Fu, yeah that would be cool.

    I respect Donnie for his introduction of MMA in movies. Furthermore, I like his depiction of traditional Kung Fu. But for me, he seems a bit too lanky and spidery in his MMA movements. Don't know, just a pet peeve of mine.
    Indeed things have gotten better in the male Asian representation department however having a half-Malay/half-Brit playing a Chinese man in CRA was a misfire as was To All The Boys' lack of Asian paramours was embarrassing.

    So did you get in deep in your Capoiera training? My first contact with that style was watching The Mighty Quinn as a kid. A friend of mine whose family is from St.Vincent practiced it for a while but stopped when things got a little too weird. He told me that the deeper Capoiera is often intertwined with Afro-Haitian Voodoo practices. He said he quit not long after one evening where once the people were done with training they sacrificed a chicken and were chanting and playing drums. He's a big dude that played as an O-lineman in the NCAA and I personally befriended him practicing Pekiti Tirsia Kali but he says he was 100% freaked out when that went down.

    I personally love Donnie's fusion of Kung Fu and BJJ. I know his application of some of the BJJ isn't perfect, locking legs while going for the choke and such but I never thought I'd see a Kung Fu movie where someone got into a rubber guard, applied arm bars, ankle picks, German suplexes, sprawls...

  12. #267
    Fantastic Member Venom Melendez's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    I forgot about this the last time movie villains were discussed, but aside from Cat and Zheng Zu, I want friggin' Gorgon. That would be sick.
    Isn't Gorgon Japanese?
    Last edited by Venom Melendez; 07-20-2019 at 01:58 AM.

  13. #268
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Just had a thought;

    If the movie starts off with Shang working for his father, what are the odds that the villain won't actually be a villain....but another hero?

    This could be a good way to introduce an Asian hero who isn't a walking stereotype, and this other hero could be the one to show Shang that Zheng isnt the good man Shang thinks he is.

    I mean, most of the villains we've talked about are also martial artists right? They're just more of the same Kung Fu stereotypes Shang is, which we're all worried about being poorly handled. Using someone else like, I dunno, Sunfire maybe? as the "villain" would help balance those scales a little bit, provide a wider scope and different perspective.....

    I dunno, I think it might work?
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  14. #269
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom Melendez View Post
    Isn't Gorgon Japanese?
    Indeed he is.
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  15. #270
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    The Mandarin has been confirmed!


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