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  1. #346
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    There is some debate among Chinese fans in regards to the Mandarin appearing in the Shang Chi movie.

    https://www.inkstonenews.com/society...rticle/3019596

    https://qz.com/quartzy/1671394/china...ero-movie/amp/

  2. #347
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There is some debate among Chinese fans in regards to the Mandarin appearing in the Shang Chi movie.

    https://www.inkstonenews.com/society...rticle/3019596

    https://qz.com/quartzy/1671394/china...ero-movie/amp/
    It’s the same argument they had from a couple of months ago. Honestly these Weibo users don’t have a
    huge depth of knowledge on Shang. A Wikipedia or Marvel Database entry only explains so much. Shang has Leiko, writers have been trying to modernise Shang, the Mandarin, and Zheng Zu.

    Additionally I think they’d be won over if Marvel plays one scene right. There has to be a
    scene where the Mandarin and Shang have a falling out. It’s got to be played as the Mandaein having done everything for his son and being a caring though misguided father. And Shang just rejects that. He becomes the child who disappoints his father and doesn’t live up to those expectations. Guarantee any Chinese or even Asian audience member will cry or bawl at that moment. Because we’ve all had those moments. Makes the Mandatin more sympathetic too.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  3. #348
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Great video featuring the extended interview with Simu Liu. Definitely appreciate how he talks about the audition process as well as his love of comics. I definitely could relate to how he discussed seeing all of these heroes in the MCU and waiting for his chance to be a part of that.

    The charisma is there. Marvel's got to make sure that this charisma shows up in the movie.

    And oh yes, shrimp chips rule!
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  4. #349
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    Fung Bros. discussing the wider implications of Shang-Chi for the Asian audience.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  5. #350
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    I know it is partially important Marvel gets on China's good side but a lot of the stuff I've seen coming from that end is troubling (hoping not to offend anyone by saying this). part of the controversy revolves around Chinese people online thinking both Simu and Awkwafina are "ugly" particularly because of their monolid or almond-shaped eyes, high cheekbones and slightly darker toned skin. Some don't think Simu is as good looking as the other Marvel actors such as Hemsworth, Evans, Boseman etc. As you can imagine this surprised me considering I think Simu is very handsome and looks like a Marvel actor already, and Awkwafina is at least cute to me and I wouldn't call her "ugly" at all, so I did some digging. Turns out it's China's beauty standards at play, which tend to favour bigger, rounder, double-lid eyes, very fair, "white" flawless skin (something called 'clean face') and an oval shaped, more delicate face (without sharp features like high cheekbones apparently). And it seems to be a pretty big deal in China because online users have accused foreign brands and agencies of trying to insult their national beauty when they cast actors/actresses and choose models that don't fit the above description (there was a whole scandal revolving a Zara model with the other features as well as having freckles and these Weibo users went wild about it).

    I'll try to not go to deep into this but I'll just say beauty standards no matter where they come from are BS and toxic. But what kinda annoys me most in this case is the complacency around it. The general reaction from China is basically "that's just the way it is and it's different" but forcing to people to adhere to a standard that doesn't apply to everyone is toxic. I know for a fact not every Chinese person is born looking like their own standard, and people should be allowed to not think they're "ugly" if they look like Simu Liu or Awkwafina. That's just not right, and the regular Chinese citizens I see in all videos look exactly like how they do. It's only their C-pop idols and some of their local actors and actresses or models that look like their standard (and some have probably undergone cosmetic enhancements to achieve that). To use a more popular example, it's like black people all over the world going "Oh well lighter skinned black people are seen as more beautiful, that's just the way it is and there's nothing we can do about it." Basically some of the online outrage is BS (also think some of these users are bots because some are on Twitter and they are behaving like bots) and even if it affects the movie somehow, it's not because the film itself did something wrong.

    Anyway, more back on topic: Ha, funny I had watched those two videos last night before you posted them. The interview was good, and what Simu has in common with a lot of Marvel's casting choices is the passion they have for the character and what they're doing. Very relatable and humble guy. I can honestly see him being great in the role as well as alongside actors like Hemsworth and Holland. He teased the stunt team and the prospect of Shang's fighting style just a little bit, so I can't wait to hear about that soon.

    The Fung Bros video was also really good too. I'd seen their stuff suggested to me before but I largely ignored it so this is the first time I'm seeing any of their stuff. It was really great too, and they're both very intelligent and articulate. It's great listening to them and I agree with their points. Their comparison of Simu to Chadwick was unexpected but I see it now that they pointed it out, and they also emphasise a lot of the good I've heard about Simu as well. I like that the Asian YouTube community is very supportive of him.

    Something crossed my mind a few minutes back. I was reading an article by Fandom about the film and they mentioned that the Mandarin and Zheng Zu were amalgamated for the "Master of Kung Fu" Secret Wars/Battleworld title. I read up on it and the book changes the Mandarin's rings to mystical kung fu techniques but the powers are more or less the same. I'm wondering if it's possible that the film might be doing this? I mentioned that the title of the film makes me feel like they're doing something specifically with the ten rings. Might be a cool angle but I'm not sure about it.

  6. #351
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    I think that's an oversimplification of the issue. There's truth to it on the Shang Chi side, but you gotta understand, the biggest issue they have is with The Mandarin, who regardless of what Marvel has done, is still heavily rooted in VERY VERY VERY racist stereotypes and caricatures.

    You can't ignore that reality. It'd be like asking a black person to accept a villain named The Bantu and he has origins in Uncle Tom

  7. #352
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woozie View Post
    I think that's an oversimplification of the issue. There's truth to it on the Shang Chi side, but you gotta understand, the biggest issue they have is with The Mandarin, who regardless of what Marvel has done, is still heavily rooted in VERY VERY VERY racist stereotypes and caricatures.

    You can't ignore that reality. It'd be like asking a black person to accept a villain named The Bantu and he has origins in Uncle Tom
    I'm not ignoring that bit. That part is a real issue they have every right to be concerned about that (though it'll likely be addressed and hopefully some good will come out of it).

    I'm simply talking about another issue which I've seen pop up, which as I have said, is BS. Imagine you thinking you've taken a job that you think will be a good thing for your people but everyone is focusing on your looks. That's ridiculous.

    I get the Mandarin issue, and Marvel's Asian comic book characters (with the exception of maybe Kamala Khan) haven't been symbols of power the same way Wonder Woman or Black Panther has always been. The Mandarin's many depictions are steeped in heavy Yellow Peril, Orientalism, Fu Manchu type stuff, which I get. But it has been reported that both the writer and director want to do away with all of that. I think that was always the plan, and Marvel chose the Mandarin to avoid using Zheng Zu altogether, and getting rid of the stuff that wouldn't work in their films (which by the way, they've done for EVERY film they have, even when it backfired like Doctor Strange). Former MCU references are an added bonus.

    I'm not saying they don't have a right to be mad about that. They do, but at least complain about something legitimate and not something as superficial and toxic like someone's looks? Imagine being offended by someone else's face. I get that some of those features have been mocked in Western media but they aren't going to go away from your people. Why not take back ownership of it, instead of pretending like it doesn't exist and embrace it. They're acting like Simu Liu is a white actor in yellowface.

  8. #353
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    If the MCU could take a "problematic" character in the comics like M'Baku, and make him work on-film, then I don't doubt that they can make The Mandarin work if they put in some effort. Also even the comics these days have removed a lot of the iffy parts of his character.

  9. #354
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Exactly, and most of this stuff is from the 70s/80s. I get it, the fact that they even exist is a damn shame, but Shang-Chi has been far from being anything insulting for years now. I'm not sure about the Mandarin (I know one complaint is about that name and that one I can agree with), but I'm sure they'll figure something out with it. Not like the Chinese themselves portray other races positively anyway (not important but still, pot meet kettle).

    I should also add "a villain named The Bantu and he has origins in Uncle Tom" isn't really an apt comparison. Something like a villain named "The Nigerian" or "The African" while being made to look like a typical blackface depiction of Africans, or "The Tom" with Uncle Tom stereotypes makes sense. Just saying, you muddled it a bit.

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    I know it is partially important Marvel gets on China's good side but a lot of the stuff I've seen coming from that end is troubling (hoping not to offend anyone by saying this). part of the controversy revolves around Chinese people online thinking both Simu and Awkwafina are "ugly" particularly because of their monolid or almond-shaped eyes, high cheekbones and slightly darker toned skin. Some don't think Simu is as good looking as the other Marvel actors such as Hemsworth, Evans, Boseman etc. As you can imagine this surprised me considering I think Simu is very handsome and looks like a Marvel actor already, and Awkwafina is at least cute to me and I wouldn't call her "ugly" at all, so I did some digging. Turns out it's China's beauty standards at play, which tend to favour bigger, rounder, double-lid eyes, very fair, "white" flawless skin (something called 'clean face') and an oval shaped, more delicate face (without sharp features like high cheekbones apparently). And it seems to be a pretty big deal in China because online users have accused foreign brands and agencies of trying to insult their national beauty when they cast actors/actresses and choose models that don't fit the above description (there was a whole scandal revolving a Zara model with the other features as well as having freckles and these Weibo users went wild about it).

    I'll try to not go to deep into this but I'll just say beauty standards no matter where they come from are BS and toxic. But what kinda annoys me most in this case is the complacency around it. The general reaction from China is basically "that's just the way it is and it's different" but forcing to people to adhere to a standard that doesn't apply to everyone is toxic. I know for a fact not every Chinese person is born looking like their own standard, and people should be allowed to not think they're "ugly" if they look like Simu Liu or Awkwafina. That's just not right, and the regular Chinese citizens I see in all videos look exactly like how they do. It's only their C-pop idols and some of their local actors and actresses or models that look like their standard (and some have probably undergone cosmetic enhancements to achieve that). To use a more popular example, it's like black people all over the world going "Oh well lighter skinned black people are seen as more beautiful, that's just the way it is and there's nothing we can do about it." Basically some of the online outrage is BS (also think some of these users are bots because some are on Twitter and they are behaving like bots) and even if it affects the movie somehow, it's not because the film itself did something wrong.
    I hear you bro. Chinese (and I believe of the countries in Northeast Asia like Japan and Korea have this too) can be very blunt with criticisms on appearance. These types of descriptions, like rounder, double eyelids and white, porcelain skin (tons of ads all over China for skin whitening products) are pretty common. I'm not too sure where it comes from. Maybe it's from European colonization that emphasized these types of futures. Maybe it's from traditions that say those with darker skin come from the rural, poor areas and thus are inferior. Suffice to say, things like this haven't been challenged. There hasn't been one of those "we're all beautiful in our own way" moments. No, Chinese have a standard of beauty, you either have it or you don't. And if you hawk that type of standard of beauty, than you're insulting the Chinese. Now, I think there are movements to change beauty standards though in East Asia. But it's a slow, process.

    Anyway, more back on topic: Ha, funny I had watched those two videos last night before you posted them. The interview was good, and what Simu has in common with a lot of Marvel's casting choices is the passion they have for the character and what they're doing. Very relatable and humble guy. I can honestly see him being great in the role as well as alongside actors like Hemsworth and Holland. He teased the stunt team and the prospect of Shang's fighting style just a little bit, so I can't wait to hear about that soon.
    Oh yeah, I could definitely see Simu taking a BTS IG post with Hemsworth and Holland. That personality is great and it has to be retained. Again, MCU can't play Shang as a stoic, mysterious Asian man. That's not Shang and that's definitely not Simu. As for the training, I'm looking forward to that as well. Simu mentioned that he'd be starting to train in a couple of weeks. Hopefully, he gets a good, long time to train for the role, at least 2-3 months. Maybe longer. That Kung Fu has to be on point.

    The Fung Bros video was also really good too. I'd seen their stuff suggested to me before but I largely ignored it so this is the first time I'm seeing any of their stuff. It was really great too, and they're both very intelligent and articulate. It's great listening to them and I agree with their points. Their comparison of Simu to Chadwick was unexpected but I see it now that they pointed it out, and they also emphasise a lot of the good I've heard about Simu as well. I like that the Asian YouTube community is very supportive of him.
    Yeah, it was great to hear about that. Ever since the announcement, a lot of Asians have been supportive and excited over Simu and Shang-Chi. For now, the interest overshadows concerns about Orientalist this, Yellow Peril that, and Kung Fu stereotypes. Just hope that momentum continues. Asians, like the Simu pointed out, have to realize that Shang isn't just the period, he's the starting point. After Shang, we're going to get the "Totally Awesome Cho" or "Ms. Marvel" movies.

    Something crossed my mind a few minutes back. I was reading an article by Fandom about the film and they mentioned that the Mandarin and Zheng Zu were amalgamated for the "Master of Kung Fu" Secret Wars/Battleworld title. I read up on it and the book changes the Mandarin's rings to mystical kung fu techniques but the powers are more or less the same. I'm wondering if it's possible that the film might be doing this? I mentioned that the title of the film makes me feel like they're doing something specifically with the ten rings. Might be a cool angle but I'm not sure about it.
    That was a great miniseries. Have all of the issues. Yes, the Ten Rings weren't physical objects, but rather techniques that martial artists learned. It'd be cool if the movie does this in a way. Maybe they start off physical, the Mandarin absorbs their powers, but wait, Shang is there, and absorbs them too? Sets up for a fight between them later on.

    As for the problems with the Mandarin, Chinese audiences could learn to overlook that. Harsh feelings of yellow peril caricatures aren't super deep amongst Chinese people. Maybe some, but not the general Chinese audience. Trust me, as long as they see a cool looking, awesome, modernized take on the Mandarin, any type of criticisms will be forgotten.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  11. #356
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    The Mandarin in the comics is half white(British) and half ethnic Mongolian. I don't know why they didn't avoid the entire issue of him being an "evil chinese" by simply casting a mixed race actor and emphasizing his British and Mongolian heritage. That way it's Shang the good Chinese guy vs an evil British/Mongolian guy.

  12. #357
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    In the comics currently he's "a villain who happens to be Chinese" vs. a "Chinese villain." And yes, there is a difference.

  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Exactly, and most of this stuff is from the 70s/80s. I get it, the fact that they even exist is a damn shame, but Shang-Chi has been far from being anything insulting for years now. I'm not sure about the Mandarin (I know one complaint is about that name and that one I can agree with), but I'm sure they'll figure something out with it. Not like the Chinese themselves portray other races positively anyway (not important but still, pot meet kettle).

    I should also add "a villain named The Bantu and he has origins in Uncle Tom" isn't really an apt comparison. Something like a villain named "The Nigerian" or "The African" while being made to look like a typical blackface depiction of Africans, or "The Tom" with Uncle Tom stereotypes makes sense. Just saying, you muddled it a bit.
    Not really, a big violent Black villain who calls himself "Man Ape" and wants to take Wakanda back to a more "traditional" IE more savage time, etc. That's every bit as problematic as The Mandarin. Yet the MCU made him work, so my point still stands.

  14. #359
    Astonishing Member Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Even beyond M'Baku, Black Panther still had some pretty offensive stuff. In the 90s run by Priest, the Dora Milaje--Nakia and Okoye--were overly sexualised and underage "brides in training" for T'Challa (drawn to look like Tyra Banks and Naomi Campbell). He sexually assaulted Nakia (albeit while possessed) and she liked it (the character played by Lupita Nyong'o). The whole thing formed a really awful and cringey sexual relationship between them and she intentionally drowned herself once so T'Challa could give her mouth to mouth, and I'm pretty sure he intentionally kissed her at one point. Plus, he used to call both of them "beloved".

    None of that was in the film and Nakia was a far better character with her own agency, and Okoye is regarding as one of the MCU's best feminist characters. I have no doubt Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings will do the same thing. Simu Liu has already said they would avoid that stuff.

    https://www.kiss925.com/audio/roz-an...t-leading-man/

  15. #360
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    Killmonger overall was a FAR better character in the film than he was in the comics, as were Nakia and Okoye as well.

    Heck even Sir Ben Kingsley's Mandarin was pretty cool up until the dumb twist. So it's simple I think, make Mandarin a villain who happens to be Chinese, instead of a "Chinese villain." Heck maybe throw in a couple of other heroic Chinese characters if you're worried about China's reaction, etc.

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