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  1. #76
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
    Scottish people are British

    I assume you mean Scotsman playing a Englishman
    lol yes! Ha, I knew something about that sentence didn't make sense but I was too tired to realize what it was. lol
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  2. #77
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Like many of you here I'm very excited about the Shang-Chi film and hoping it's got great writing, direction, action and acting. I have never picked up a Shang-Chi book but I have read the character's appearances in other books, and I at least have a basic knowledge of who the character is and what he is about.

    On the current debate on whether the ethnicity of the lead actor matters:

    I'm not Chinese or Asian at all, but I am ethnically Nigerian (African) and my favourite character is Black Panther. Chadwick Boseman who plays the character in the MCU is not African at all but is African American, and honestly I have no problem with his casting at all. I think he's a great choice, plays the character well, and looks the part also in spite of the areas he doesn't measure by being African American. Most of his cast members in Black Panther were not ethnically African too. I only know a few people who had a problem with the casting (who are Africans themselves) because they felt it was inauthentic. But they aren't big on the movie anyway. In general, African people from different countries ate Black Panther up, becoming the highest grossing film in West Africa and it did very well in South Africa too (a lot of MCU Wakanda is based on South Africa, especially the language used).

    Point is, I think this might be a personal issue rather than something that is nationwide. For instance, the same Mike Moh (who seems like a great choice btw) is playing Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee unlike Shang-Chi was a real person and is a Chinese/Hong Kong icon. Yet I haven't heard any backlash towards Mike Moh's way and he got a whole lot of praise for his portrayal (shown in only a few seconds) and he's getting lots of love from Asians all over social media (which I'm sure includes Chinese/Hong Kong people). So when it comes down to it, it might not actually be so much of an issue.

    I know Africans and Asians, Nigerians, South Africans, Koreans and Chinese people are all different, don't think the same way and don't have the same values. But I think what we may all have in common and could connect us is seeing the shared humanity and commonness of all of us as people from a continent (Africans and Asians) and as minorities having the need to see ourselves in popular films. It might have been easier for Black Panther to do it because Wakanda isn't real and could pull from different parts of Africa without much problem, but China/Hong Kong is very real and it means more to a specific group of people rather than a whole continent. So I see both sides that it might not matter and that it does. As a non-Chinese/Asian fan I think it does not, but I might not be the best person to ask. I think Mike Moh would be good from what I've seen and heard, and he does want it as well. Let us just hope that we get the best outcome possible.

    One whether Shang-Chi should be part Chinese or fully Chinese:

    I think they're going with the part Chinese route. According to Variety:

    Quote Originally Posted by Variety
    Deadline hears Marvel is already looking at a number of Asian and Asian-American directors who want to do something as potentially monumental as was accomplished in Marvelís first viable Best Picture candidate, Black Panther. That film tied into African and African American cultures and the sensibilities of its nearly all-black cast, with a black director in Ryan Coogler and writer in Joe Robert Cole. The goal here is to do a similar thing: introduce a new hero who blends Asian and Asian American themes, crafted by Asian and Asian American filmmakers.
    Although it should be noted that Black Panther did this with a titular character that was not African American, so they could be keeping Shang-Chi fully Chinese. I think either would be a good choice, depending on who they want to cater to. Or they could try something really bold (and risky) by having a part Chinese villain and talk about the sociopolitical debates of being part Chinese. Or they could do this with Shang-Chi by making him part Chinese. Each could lead to some powerful stuff.

    On Shang-Chi's powers, abilities and characterisation:

    Again, I don't know Shang-Chi as well as others would do hear, but I do have some ideas on what I would like to see and what would be great here.

    Shang-Chi should first and foremost be a martial artist. We have MCU characters that know martial arts like Captain America, Black Widow, Bucky and T'Challa, but I think (aside from T'Challa slightly) there's a difference. Shang-Chi's core thing is just martial arts. Hand to hand combat, martial arts weapons. kung fu. He's not a guy with fancy gadgets like Widow and T'Challa, or with superhuman boosting chemicals like Bucky, Cap and T'Challa. He's (mostly) all pure skill.

    It'll be really great to see Marvel Studios really give us the kind of action we see in Hong Kong cinema. I think they really need to dedicate to doing this, because not only is American action very different to Hong Kong (and Asian) action, but this will be a major factor that helps set it aside. What made Black Panther (to me and many others) feel authentically African was the production that went into it. The costumes, sets, scenery and colours all felt like someone had done their research and put it on screen, rather than an outsider just assuming what he thought African countries and cultures were like. Even the fighting styles and props were based on African martial arts. If the movie can tap into this especially in regards to Hong Kong style action, it'll be a huge win. I'd love to see Shang-Chi using Jeet Kun Do (Bruce Lee's 'fighting style') with a mix of animal style kung fu and wing chun.

    Regarding powers, I think they should keep it as simple as possible. Shang-Chi should use chi techniques. For homogeneity they could dub it as an offshoot of Astral Plane techniques used in the Doctor Strange movie. He should be able to use chi for two basic things: to momentarily increase his strength, speed, durability and perception; and to form chi clones. A few pages back someone posted the Shang-Chi reveal on Marvel's Future Fight and that's how I'd like to see the clones being used: to create combo chains and enhance blows. But another part of me wants Shang-Chi to be able to use the clones beyond as presented, because it could lead to other cool visuals and also potential humour having clones running around.

    Personality wise, I think it is first and foremost apparent Shang-Chi (like many MCU characters) has a clear, distinguishable and relatable personality. I'd love to see him as a laid back guy with a dry wit, with Bruce Lee's swagger and slight cockiness. But he should be honorable as a hero. I'm not sure if in the comics Shang-Chi loves a fight, but that's something I might want to see too.

    Perhaps after all this I should read some Shang-Chi stuff. Anyone have any recommendations?

  3. #78
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Hi all. Some good discussions here. Just want to respond to some of these. :

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Glad you took my question in the spirit it was intended.

    I myself, I'm not Chinese obviously, nor even Asian-American, but I do have the privilege of working with people from all over the world; students come here for a 3-6 month period on work study programs and as a manager at my company one of my responsibilities is to help them adjust and figure out how we do things here. Which means I spend more time with these kids than I do my family lol, and I spend most of that time explaining Western/American stuff than I do hearing about others' ways of life, but I do get to learn something. It's probably the best part of my job; I love hearing about other cultures from the people who actually live there.

    I've worked with a few dozen people from China and one of the things Ive noticed, which is pertinent to this conversation, is that they seem to have a pretty high degree of, we'll call it national pride. Maybe its not quite racism the way Americans might define it but I'll be honest; it seems an awful lot like it. Now, most of those kids were great and I've kept in touch with several of them, Im not judging anything (some of them were assholes, just like you'll find anywhere ). And Ive always just assumed this "Chinese first" mentality I've seen comes from belonging to a homogeneous culture where most everyone shares the same history and ethnicity, etc., unlike here in the States where everyone's ancestors come from different places. I've noticed this with people from Japan, Turkey, and various nations in and around Russia too. Again, no offense intended or anything, Im just speaking of my own limited experience. Im not even suggesting that this attitude is the standard across the nation/s in question, just what I've seen.
    Dude, that's pretty awesome that you get to work with people from around the world! I'm actually quite jealous! As for the sentiments on national pride, I think you're on the right trail in terms of where it is coming from. I would say for many mainland Chinese who haven't been exposed to other cultures or peoples, there can be a mentality of "China first." Whereas in the West, there are definitely many ideas concerning what is right or normal, Chinese have a view on what's right, which can be narrow. Still, while there are Chinese who are nationalistic up the wazoo (which, as you pointed out, can be found in other countries), other times I don't think it's intentional. Rather, I think sometimes mainlanders can be unintentionally blunt. Indeed, it's this bluntness that hits you hard when you first hear it. I chalk that up to Chinese not mastering the subtleties of English. For instance, an American friend of mine who was working in China talked with a mainlander. The mainlander said how America just lags behind in infrastructure. What? Like, who cares about infrastructure in America? And yeah, this maybe true and yeah, maybe you didn't mean to be hurtful, but couldn't you say that a bit better? It sounds like you're insulting us. I've heard similar things. America has a lot of crime and everyone has a gun, unlike China. It's somewhat true, but yeah, could you not be so blunt with it? Don't you know there's more to the story? So, I think arrogance comes from unintentional bluntness. Are the situations you experience like this? Have you felt they were intentional or unintentional?

    Which leads me to this question. Whether Shang is played by a Chinese actor or not.....will that really matter? Shang was created by Americans and his origin story goes against a lot of Chinese cultural norms (as you've mentioned earlier), so are Chinese audiences going to accept him as "really" Chinese to begin with? Are they going to see him as "real Chinese" or as "American's ideas of what Chinese means?"

    Does that make sense?
    Excellent point. I actually raised this a couple of pages ago in another post. One of my fears is that the Chinese will not see Shang as being a "real Chinese." Even if Marvel chose someone ethnically Chinese, the possibility of being labeled as not a "real Chinese" is there. Shang-Chi is an American creation. His name doesn't make sense in Chinese. So to counter this, the movie really has to get the Chinese/Kung Fu culture down and make it feel authentic. Have Shang on the streets of Shanghai, Beijing, or Hong Kong. Show him having late night bowls of noodles at the local noodle shop. Show him with his Kung Fu brothers at the banquet honoring his Kung Fu master who's getting a little too red faced because he had one two many bowls of baijiu. Show him gossiping in the parks with the old men or karaoking in the huge 5 story karaoke clubs with the youngsters. Show him deeply, deeply contrite that he isn't being a filial son by disobeying his father. The movie has to have scenes like this and they got to feel real and natural. Yeah, Chinese have a very strong sense of identity. However, it can be countered, by getting people who know that identity and can blend it with Shang.
    "I am a man of peace."

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  4. #79
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Other thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    Like many of you here I'm very excited about the Shang-Chi film and hoping it's got great writing, direction, action and acting. I have never picked up a Shang-Chi book but I have read the character's appearances in other books, and I at least have a basic knowledge of who the character is and what he is about.

    On the current debate on whether the ethnicity of the lead actor matters:

    I'm not Chinese or Asian at all, but I am ethnically Nigerian (African) and my favourite character is Black Panther. Chadwick Boseman who plays the character in the MCU is not African at all but is African American, and honestly I have no problem with his casting at all. I think he's a great choice, plays the character well, and looks the part also in spite of the areas he doesn't measure by being African American. Most of his cast members in Black Panther were not ethnically African too. I only know a few people who had a problem with the casting (who are Africans themselves) because they felt it was inauthentic. But they aren't big on the movie anyway. In general, African people from different countries ate Black Panther up, becoming the highest grossing film in West Africa and it did very well in South Africa too (a lot of MCU Wakanda is based on South Africa, especially the language used).

    Point is, I think this might be a personal issue rather than something that is nationwide. For instance, the same Mike Moh (who seems like a great choice btw) is playing Bruce Lee. Bruce Lee unlike Shang-Chi was a real person and is a Chinese/Hong Kong icon. Yet I haven't heard any backlash towards Mike Moh's way and he got a whole lot of praise for his portrayal (shown in only a few seconds) and he's getting lots of love from Asians all over social media (which I'm sure includes Chinese/Hong Kong people). So when it comes down to it, it might not actually be so much of an issue.

    I know Africans and Asians, Nigerians, South Africans, Koreans and Chinese people are all different, don't think the same way and don't have the same values. But I think what we may all have in common and could connect us is seeing the shared humanity and commonness of all of us as people from a continent (Africans and Asians) and as minorities having the need to see ourselves in popular films. It might have been easier for Black Panther to do it because Wakanda isn't real and could pull from different parts of Africa without much problem, but China/Hong Kong is very real and it means more to a specific group of people rather than a whole continent. So I see both sides that it might not matter and that it does. As a non-Chinese/Asian fan I think it does not, but I might not be the best person to ask. I think Mike Moh would be good from what I've seen and heard, and he does want it as well. Let us just hope that we get the best outcome possible.
    Great job for pointing this out. It's pretty cool that many Africans from different countries and ethnicities appreciated Black Panther, especially considering that he's an American creation (Like how you mentioned how the movie incorporates real African culture). That ideal too, of commonness, and its application to Shang, that's something I'm striving for, believe me. Mike Moh has garnered a lot of praise already, even from Asian Americans. And yeah, part of me thinks it would be cool to have him as Shang. A lot of Asian-Americans would think he's cool and would elevate the role.

    Still, as you mentioned China and Hong Kong (and the rest of East Asia) are real places. Like I said before, these places have strong senses of identity. Indeed, I have to separate China and Hong Kong. Ask a Hong Konger if they are Chinese, and they'll tell you flat out no (Me, I'd say a Hong Konger is half and half). Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans may see similarities, but they feel a lot more differences. Now it's possible to have a non-Chinese in a Chinese role. The best example I can think of is Takeshi Kaneshiro who played a Chinese character in "House of Flying Daggers." Lots of Chinese loved him there. But that's exception more than the rule. For a lot of people, that sense of identity, it's hard to look past. If a Korean were to play this role, would Chinese see that as elevating Chinese culture?.....I don't know. Maybe. Rewatching Mike's performance again....that was a damn good Bruce Lee. I got lost in it and it made me proud to be Chinese. Would other Chinese see that? I don't know.

    On a side note, how do Africans view one another? How would Gambians feel about Somalians? South Africans and Senegalese? Is there a sense of unity in being African or do they say there are big differences?


    On Shang-Chi's powers, abilities and characterisation:

    Again, I don't know Shang-Chi as well as others would do hear, but I do have some ideas on what I would like to see and what would be great here.

    Shang-Chi should first and foremost be a martial artist. We have MCU characters that know martial arts like Captain America, Black Widow, Bucky and T'Challa, but I think (aside from T'Challa slightly) there's a difference. Shang-Chi's core thing is just martial arts. Hand to hand combat, martial arts weapons. kung fu. He's not a guy with fancy gadgets like Widow and T'Challa, or with superhuman boosting chemicals like Bucky, Cap and T'Challa. He's (mostly) all pure skill.

    It'll be really great to see Marvel Studios really give us the kind of action we see in Hong Kong cinema. I think they really need to dedicate to doing this, because not only is American action very different to Hong Kong (and Asian) action, but this will be a major factor that helps set it aside. What made Black Panther (to me and many others) feel authentically African was the production that went into it. The costumes, sets, scenery and colours all felt like someone had done their research and put it on screen, rather than an outsider just assuming what he thought African countries and cultures were like. Even the fighting styles and props were based on African martial arts. If the movie can tap into this especially in regards to Hong Kong style action, it'll be a huge win. I'd love to see Shang-Chi using Jeet Kun Do (Bruce Lee's 'fighting style') with a mix of animal style kung fu and wing chun.

    Regarding powers, I think they should keep it as simple as possible. Shang-Chi should use chi techniques. For homogeneity they could dub it as an offshoot of Astral Plane techniques used in the Doctor Strange movie. He should be able to use chi for two basic things: to momentarily increase his strength, speed, durability and perception; and to form chi clones. A few pages back someone posted the Shang-Chi reveal on Marvel's Future Fight and that's how I'd like to see the clones being used: to create combo chains and enhance blows. But another part of me wants Shang-Chi to be able to use the clones beyond as presented, because it could lead to other cool visuals and also potential humour having clones running around.

    Personality wise, I think it is first and foremost apparent Shang-Chi (like many MCU characters) has a clear, distinguishable and relatable personality. I'd love to see him as a laid back guy with a dry wit, with Bruce Lee's swagger and slight cockiness. But he should be honorable as a hero. I'm not sure if in the comics Shang-Chi loves a fight, but that's something I might want to see too.

    Perhaps after all this I should read some Shang-Chi stuff. Anyone have any recommendations?
    Good ideas. Keep it simple with martial art skills because that is the focus. I'm a little hesitant with the doing the chi stuff or using clones. In terms of chi, yeah, I believe it exists, but I think it has it's realistic limits. If Shang is going to be a grounded martial artist, he has to keep himself within those limits. As for the clones, I've always been hesitant, because I always thought of that as being a one off type of thing. I'm open to it though. As for the personality, I'll agree with you up until the cockiness. I'd replace that with a confidence that gets along with everyone. Shang would like to fight, but I seem him in the vein of Ryu from Street Fighter. He fights not to be arrogant and prove that he's better than others. He isn't rubbing anyone's face into the dirt. Rather, fighting helps him reach new levels of understanding. As for Shang-Chi reading, I liked his appearances in Secret Avengers and especially Avengers World #3.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  5. #80
    Resident of The Djalia Blind Wedjat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Other thoughts:



    Great job for pointing this out. It's pretty cool that many Africans from different countries and ethnicities appreciated Black Panther, especially considering that he's an American creation (Like how you mentioned how the movie incorporates real African culture). That ideal too, of commonness, and its application to Shang, that's something I'm striving for, believe me. Mike Moh has garnered a lot of praise already, even from Asian Americans. And yeah, part of me thinks it would be cool to have him as Shang. A lot of Asian-Americans would think he's cool and would elevate the role.

    Still, as you mentioned China and Hong Kong (and the rest of East Asia) are real places. Like I said before, these places have strong senses of identity. Indeed, I have to separate China and Hong Kong. Ask a Hong Konger if they are Chinese, and they'll tell you flat out no (Me, I'd say a Hong Konger is half and half). Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans may see similarities, but they feel a lot more differences. Now it's possible to have a non-Chinese in a Chinese role. The best example I can think of is Takeshi Kaneshiro who played a Chinese character in "House of Flying Daggers." Lots of Chinese loved him there. But that's exception more than the rule. For a lot of people, that sense of identity, it's hard to look past. If a Korean were to play this role, would Chinese see that as elevating Chinese culture?.....I don't know. Maybe. Rewatching Mike's performance again....that was a damn good Bruce Lee. I got lost in it and it made me proud to be Chinese. Would other Chinese see that? I don't know.

    On a side note, how do Africans view one another? How would Gambians feel about Somalians? South Africans and Senegalese? Is there a sense of unity in being African or do they say there are big differences?
    I hear you on all of these, and hopefully it's not a lose-lose scenario. It's nice to also hear a differing opinion of someone else from another place regarding similar issues. Puts things into perspective I wouldn't have thought about.

    On the side note, I can't really say definitely. I know that from my own experience the people in my generation (I'm 22) are very accepting towards other African people from different countries. I live in the UK and most universities have an African and Caribbean Students Association or Society which allows all of us to relate friendly with one another. I have friends from Ghana, Cameron, Botswana, South Africa, Ethiopia, Kenya etc as well and we all see things and feel the same way. But I do know there is still xenophobia. I know of the one between Nigerians and South Africa and I know it has gotten violent recently. But really there is still that in-house fighting and rivalry, especially when Africans are in Africa. When they are in foreign countries, it's like that's when tey realise they have to stick together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Good ideas. Keep it simple with martial art skills because that is the focus. I'm a little hesitant with the doing the chi stuff or using clones. In terms of chi, yeah, I believe it exists, but I think it has it's realistic limits. If Shang is going to be a grounded martial artist, he has to keep himself within those limits. As for the clones, I've always been hesitant, because I always thought of that as being a one off type of thing. I'm open to it though. As for the personality, I'll agree with you up until the cockiness. I'd replace that with a confidence that gets along with everyone. Shang would like to fight, but I seem him in the vein of Ryu from Street Fighter. He fights not to be arrogant and prove that he's better than others. He isn't rubbing anyone's face into the dirt. Rather, fighting helps him reach new levels of understanding. As for Shang-Chi reading, I liked his appearances in Secret Avengers and especially Avengers World #3.
    I hear you on the powers stuff. I definitely want martial arts skill above everything else, but I also feel Shang-Chi should be able to "compete" realistically by the MCU's standards. I definitely think if showcased right, Shang-Chi would definitely be above Black Widow (a very skilled fighter). I know characters like him in the comics are shown to be on par with Captain America and other martial arts experts with powers, but it's easier to sell it with comics than it is movies. Movies can accurately show how fast someone moves and how hard they can hit when they have powers versus when they don't. Cap can kick guys hard enough to send them flying into the air at blurring speeds, and then he can kick a truck to send another guy flying. T'Challa can do those same things and has advanced technology. How do you sell Shang-Chi as someone who can compete with that? That's why I thought of adding the very slight mystical touch. It shouldn't feel as important as Doctor Strange, but just a little boost he can call upon.

  6. #81
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Dude, that's pretty awesome that you get to work with people from around the world! I'm actually quite jealous!
    Yeah it's a lot of fun. I do not have anything close to a "great" job (I mean, it's far from the worst too) and I'm far from important (outside of my building, anyway) but I get to know people from all over which is a really great experience. Traveling buskers, captains of industry, world leaders, retirees, Americans, Russians, Chinese, Jamaicans.....its a hell of a cultural mix. One of the games I play with the new arrivals is sharing the stereotypes our nations have about each other. We laugh at how ridiculous we both are and then talk about what it's actually like where we come from. Its a nice way to show that we both have a lot to learn and oddly makes the new arrivals feel more comfortable. You'd be amazed at how often "every American has a gun" comes up. I don't take offense since I own three.

    As for the sentiments on national pride, I think you're on the right trail in terms of where it is coming from. Are the situations you experience like this? Have you felt they were intentional or unintentional?
    Typically I just find it honest bluntness, like you say, which I appreciate. I'm pretty blunt as well, by nature, and I don't take offense easily. So it's actually kinda refreshing most of the time. There's been miscommunications of course, but what stands out to me as things we'd consider inappropriate are things like our Chinese students and our Japanese students almost coming to blows, and talking with one of the Chinese people afterwards, hearing remarks about Japan that, if this were a white American talking about a black American, we'd call racist. Or the Jamaicans who're very homophobic and claim it's a cultural norm (whether it is or not I have no idea).

    Excellent point. I actually raised this a couple of pages ago in another post. One of my fears is that the Chinese will not see Shang as being a "real Chinese." Even if Marvel chose someone ethnically Chinese, the possibility of being labeled as not a "real Chinese" is there. Shang-Chi is an American creation. His name doesn't make sense in Chinese. So to counter this, the movie really has to get the Chinese/Kung Fu culture down and make it feel authentic.
    Well, I think one thing Shang has going for him is Marvel's level of brand trust. From what I understand the MCU does pretty well in China, and those audiences seem to be as invested in it as we Americans are. That should hopefully earn a little wiggle room when it comes to the casting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    On the current debate on whether the ethnicity of the lead actor matters:

    I'm not Chinese or Asian at all, but I am ethnically Nigerian (African) and my favourite character is Black Panther. Chadwick Boseman who plays the character in the MCU is not African at all but is African American, and honestly I have no problem with his casting at all. I think he's a great choice, plays the character well, and looks the part also in spite of the areas he doesn't measure by being African American. Most of his cast members in Black Panther were not ethnically African too. I only know a few people who had a problem with the casting (who are Africans themselves) because they felt it was inauthentic. But they aren't big on the movie anyway. In general, African people from different countries ate Black Panther up, becoming the highest grossing film in West Africa and it did very well in South Africa too (a lot of MCU Wakanda is based on South Africa, especially the language used).
    That's a great point and I hope it goes as well for Shang as it did T'Challa. I adore the fact that Panther did so damn well, and I hope Shang can equal that success, regardless of who plays him or where they're originally from.

    My thanks to all involved in this discussion, I'm really enjoying it.
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    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    How do you sell Shang-Chi as someone who can compete with that? That's why I thought of adding the very slight mystical touch. It shouldn't feel as important as Doctor Strange, but just a little boost he can call upon.
    Well, if Widow and Hawkeye can "keep up" and find ways to make themselves useful while fighting Ultrons and gods, Shang shouldn't have a problem. Maybe have him use a couple weapons built by Stark, if you think he needs them, and he'll be good. If a powerless Batroc the Leaper could give Cap a solid fight in Winter Soldier, then Shang should be able to fight anyone at Cap's level and have a fair shot at winning. And in the MCU Cap is what, medium level Enhanced? That's more than good enough to keep up with the Avengers. I mean, that includes basically anyone who isn't Thor, Vision, Wanda, or Carol. If you're not a god or powered by an Infinity Stone, odds are Shang can kick your ass.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

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  9. #84
    Extraordinary Member Winterboy's Avatar
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    cannot wait!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Shang-Chi is co-starring in the New Agents of Atlas spin-off Sword Master.
    https://twitter.com/gregpak/status/1111830892136157184
    I love how pragmatically fitting that is. It works as an additional selling point, pairing relative newcomer with established hero, and also gives Shang-Chi something to keep in contemporary focus, if his movie is as imminent as it seems.

    I wonder what role he'll have? Will he be some form of mentor? I recall seeing something that had Dr. Strange apparently training Sword Master (but why?), so I wonder how Shang-Chi will fit into Lin Lie's stories?

    And beyond that, I am curious as to what their dynamic will be. Still learning about both really, so I look forward to learning what I eventually will.
    Last edited by J. D. Guy; 04-02-2019 at 12:15 PM.

  11. #86
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Hey all. Sorry I haven't responded recently. Here are some thoughts:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blind Wedjat View Post
    I hear you on all of these, and hopefully it's not a lose-lose scenario. It's nice to also hear a differing opinion of someone else from another place regarding similar issues. Puts things into perspective I wouldn't have thought about.

    On the side note, I can't really say definitely. I know that from my own experience the people in my generation (I'm 22) are very accepting towards other African people from different countries. I live in the UK and most universities have an African and Caribbean Students Association or Society which allows all of us to relate friendly with one another. I have friends from Ghana, Cameron, Botswana, South Africa, Ethiopia, Kenya etc as well and we all see things and feel the same way. But I do know there is still xenophobia. I know of the one between Nigerians and South Africa and I know it has gotten violent recently. But really there is still that in-house fighting and rivalry, especially when Africans are in Africa. When they are in foreign countries, it's like that's when tey realise they have to stick together.
    Nice. Reminds me when the first Asian immigrants started to come to America. One doesn't have to talk about the various Asian ethnicities, one can just talk about the Chinese themselves! In the past, groups from all across the different towns and provinces came to America. Whereas in China and Asia, there were distinct differences, those differences really shrank with their arrival to America. Goes to show you that people can find commonality in totally different and adverse situations.

    I hear you on the powers stuff. I definitely want martial arts skill above everything else, but I also feel Shang-Chi should be able to "compete" realistically by the MCU's standards. I definitely think if showcased right, Shang-Chi would definitely be above Black Widow (a very skilled fighter). I know characters like him in the comics are shown to be on par with Captain America and other martial arts experts with powers, but it's easier to sell it with comics than it is movies. Movies can accurately show how fast someone moves and how hard they can hit when they have powers versus when they don't. Cap can kick guys hard enough to send them flying into the air at blurring speeds, and then he can kick a truck to send another guy flying. T'Challa can do those same things and has advanced technology. How do you sell Shang-Chi as someone who can compete with that? That's why I thought of adding the very slight mystical touch. It shouldn't feel as important as Doctor Strange, but just a little boost he can call upon.
    I hear ya. Kung Fu is great, but is it enough to compete? Can it show up well on the movie, especially when compared to Asgardians, flying hi-tech knights, and giant men? In a way, yes. Still, I think there is wiggle room for some extra add on. Back in the Avengers World series, Shang used Stark tech in his bands:



    For me, I'd accept something like that. It enhances rather than detracts from the Kung Fu. Maybe throw in a pair of Stark nunchuku's and we'd be in business:

    "I am a man of peace."

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    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Yeah it's a lot of fun. I do not have anything close to a "great" job (I mean, it's far from the worst too) and I'm far from important (outside of my building, anyway) but I get to know people from all over which is a really great experience. Traveling buskers, captains of industry, world leaders, retirees, Americans, Russians, Chinese, Jamaicans.....its a hell of a cultural mix. One of the games I play with the new arrivals is sharing the stereotypes our nations have about each other. We laugh at how ridiculous we both are and then talk about what it's actually like where we come from. Its a nice way to show that we both have a lot to learn and oddly makes the new arrivals feel more comfortable. You'd be amazed at how often "every American has a gun" comes up. I don't take offense since I own three.
    Ha, you got the gun stereotype as well, huh? Reminds me when I was correcting my students' essays back in Hong Kong. A lot of them started off as "In America, everyone owns a gun." Craziness. The best parts of teaching those classes was the comparison of stereotypes. What did the Chinese think were stereotypes that Americans had with them and what were the real stereotypes. Many of my students said they thought Americans assumed them to be dirty, cheap, cheating, and fake. They were really confused when I told them that Americans thought they all knew Kung Fu and scored super well on the test!

    Well, I think one thing Shang has going for him is Marvel's level of brand trust. From what I understand the MCU does pretty well in China, and those audiences seem to be as invested in it as we Americans are. That should hopefully earn a little wiggle room when it comes to the casting.
    I hope that brand recognition comes into play. Yeah Shang is a Kung Fu guy, but a Kung Fu guy in the MCU. His interaction with Cap and the Avengers makes a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winterboy View Post
    cannot wait!!!

    EPIC 2.jpg

    Oh yeah, nice! I've been reading the individual issues that make up the series. Now, I can be blunt. The stories can be a little dated, but you'd be very surprised at how modern they can be. At the same time, I do wonder who is the star of this book. For the most part, Shang doesn't really speak during his series. The other characters like Reston, Black Jack Tarr, Leiko, and Sir Densy are the ones who speak the most. But when Shang speaks, it's pretty cool:



    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    I love how pragmatically fitting that is. It works as an additional selling point, pairing relative newcomer with established hero, and also gives Shang-Chi something to keep in contemporary focus, if his movie is as imminent as it seems.

    I wonder what role he'll have? Will he be some form of mentor? I recall seeing something that had Dr. Strange apparently training Sword Master (but why?), so I wonder how Shang-Chi will fit into Lin Lie's stories?

    And beyond that, I am curious as to what their dynamic will be. Still learning about both really, so I look forward to learning what I eventually will.
    That's a good question. I'm leaning more towards the mentor role. Shang has done a great job as a teacher a la Spider-Man. He could do the same with Lin Lie. As an aside, I like this mix of old school Marvel Asian character with new school Marvel Asian character.
    "I am a man of peace."

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    A couple of final thoughts:

    - So, I've been reading how the makers of a Shang-Chi film want to start from scratch with Shang. That begs the question of what are the core elements of Shang-Chi? For me, they have to keep the father/son dynamic, his being the master of Kung Fu and best fighter in the Marvel Universe, and his Chinese ethnicity. The rest though? Most definitely, get rid of the tacky, chop-socky Kung Fu uniform. But what else changes? People have said that he should be more Asian-American. Though born in China, he should be raised in America. Maybe they should change his name. "Shang-Chi" is a cover name while his real name is something more authentically Chinese. Me, personally, I'd like him to be born and raised in China, but I can see there would be issues with that. There are those cultural differences between mainlanders and the rest of the world. Personally, I'd like him to keep his name, Shang-Chi. Yeah, it doesn't make sense in Chinese, but I like the idea behind it.

    So again, what do we keep? What do we throw away? What do we add? When does it stop being Shang-Chi and become a new character entirely?

    - Holy crap, production on the film seems to be underway! Filming in Australia? Hmmm. What kind of Shang-Chi anything could be there? Zheng Zu's hidden compound? A mystical temple in a foreign land? Definitely monitoring this folks!

    https://www.cbr.com/shang-chi-filming-australia/
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    Well, as I've said I dont know much about Shang. So I cant really speak to what elements of his character and mythos are core and have to be included, beyond the obvious stuff like "crime lord father" and "martial arts master." Beyond those things he just really comes across as "Marvel's Bruce Lee" with a lot of the same basic traits and characteristics.

    But for myself, I want to see him full Chinese, or at the very least, raised in China. 99% of the MCU seems to happen in America, and 99% of the heroes are American. I'm ready for some heroes from other nations, and I'm ready to see those nations explored and utilized. I know that elements of his origin and story run against Chinese culture and I guess his name is problematic, but those are things you can use; if Shang is going against his culture and traditions, that's an interesting inner conflict to explore and I'm sure a script can spin things so it's not straight up encouraging a youth revolution in China. And his name can be a nickname given to him, or an insult people call him, or whatever. Perhaps some American can't pronounce his actual name and "Shang-Chi" is as close as he can get, or something.

    I dunno. But I loved exploring Wakanda in Black Panther, I've always enjoyed it when the films go to different locations and countries (and any part of America that isn't New York). I want more of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Well, as I've said I dont know much about Shang. So I cant really speak to what elements of his character and mythos are core and have to be included, beyond the obvious stuff like "crime lord father" and "martial arts master." Beyond those things he just really comes across as "Marvel's Bruce Lee" with a lot of the same basic traits and characteristics.

    But for myself, I want to see him full Chinese, or at the very least, raised in China. 99% of the MCU seems to happen in America, and 99% of the heroes are American. I'm ready for some heroes from other nations, and I'm ready to see those nations explored and utilized. I know that elements of his origin and story run against Chinese culture and I guess his name is problematic, but those are things you can use; if Shang is going against his culture and traditions, that's an interesting inner conflict to explore and I'm sure a script can spin things so it's not straight up encouraging a youth revolution in China. And his name can be a nickname given to him, or an insult people call him, or whatever. Perhaps some American can't pronounce his actual name and "Shang-Chi" is as close as he can get, or something.

    I dunno. But I loved exploring Wakanda in Black Panther, I've always enjoyed it when the films go to different locations and countries (and any part of America that isn't New York). I want more of that.
    Good points concerning learning more about the Marvel Universe outside of NYC. Good ideas on how to sneak in Shang's name in there as well. There are a lot of other places that have cultural elements that I'd like to see in the MCU. I'll agree with Shang's conflict with culture up to a point. I feel that Shang wouldn't think that certain elements of Chinese culture would clash with non-Chinese culture. BUT, there are certain times when he has had to reconsider. Yeah, we've talked about how Shang has had conflicts with his father. There are clashes with ideas of filial piety and reverence for parents. Another thing that people may not know is Shang's ideas on women. In those early issues of MOKF, there were times when Shang had to rethink a woman's place in society. Meeting strong women, he had to break away from what his father taught him, that women are subservient to men. More broadly speaking, this is something that modern day China has been facing for a couple of decades now, and especially now with the #metoo movement.

    Ultimately, there are a lot of ways to make Shang relevant, relatable, and viable within the MCU. Just hoping that the filmakers keep core elements while also making the necessary adaptations.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

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