The Master of Kung Fu - Shang Chi Appreciation 2019

[chamber-music]

I hope Shang Chi has the cocky swagger that Andrew Koji's character in Warrior has.

The actors own personalities tend to dictate some of the characters personality in Marvel movies. Kevin Feige has said that with ech movie the actors have had more input which has lead to them being closer to the actors own personalities.

[Blind Wedjat]

You've put some interesting ideas here, Blind Wedjat. Here's what I think. I listed my thoughts under your headings. I apologize for getting rid of your original responses, but I had to make sure there was enough space. I hope that this isn't seen as a sign of disrespect. Indeed, what your wrote gave me a lot to think about.:

I always enjoy reading your thought and there's no disrespect anywhere haha. I think we generally agree on most things and you've got great incite being part Asian and being a real Shang Chi fan which makes this interest to learn more as the discussion continues.

HIS ETHNICITY AND BACKGROUND

I too think Shang Chi being either part or fully Chinese would be just fine, as long as something good, interesting and different with it. I can't quite guess which Marvel will go with yet. Feige is very good at saying something and nothing at the same time, so his comments about Shang Chi being Asian American could mean him being part American/white or a fully Chinese but raised in America. I think they can do some great character work and storytelling with either options, and like I said, mixed race Asian people have their own identity and stories that deserved to be told.

I am hoping Britain and MI-6 do have a great presence in this film. Feige has said a little bit more about America being involved, but perhaps the story details are still being worked on. That side of the world hasn't been very present in the MCU (and I'd like t see more of it as a Brit myself), and Britain and China have a long history together. There's an opportunity to discuss that very complicated and controversial history with this character and his background if they want to and can do it well.

You definitely have a more creative idea on how to handle the issue with the name than I do, but generally I think that is something they need to think about. Next thing you know, it becomes a source of controversy. And before we know it, the more this film goes into development and production a lot more is going to be put on its shoulders.

HIS PERSONALITY

Wholeheartedly agree with a lot here that you've said here. I wanted to say a little bit about Shang Chi's look and the overall visual aesthetic of the film. I'm sure it's something they'll do but I'm hoping to see a lot of style in this film. Let's see what Chinese and Chinatown fashion is like, from the traditional to the modern, high fashion and street styles. This will be good too especially if they're going for a James Bond vibe. Marvel costuming has gotten better and more informed over the recent years so I'm expecting good things.

I was also wondering how do we show Shang Chi getting involved with the MI-6? Marvel seems to be slowly ditching the traditional origin format, so it's possible that like Spider-Man: Homecoming, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel they may go straight into Shang Chi being an agent at the start of the film. I think it's a good way to establish some of his more modern and international MA combat training, but I'm not too sure if this allows him to be a young character (and I think him being young helps a little). But it's a good way to just dive right into things, cutting away the unnecessary and typical stuff and the rest can be explained via flashbacks.

HIS FIGHTING SKILLS AND ABILITIES

A lot of Chinese people have forgotten just how deep, vast, and effective Chinese martial arts can be. Yeah, there are charlatans out there with "chi powers" who deserved to be beat up by MMA fighters. But there is a lot of knowledge that is found in Kung Fu, a lot of knowledge that's lost. There are hundreds (maybe thousands) of Kung Fu styles out there which fit in dozens of categories (Northern, Southern, Shaolin, Wudang, Ermei, Muslim, etc.) For me, Shang could easily jump from Changquan to Hung Gar to Bagua to Choy Li Fut to Xing Yi to Hop Gar to Baji to Shuai Jiao to Wing Chun to Nothern Praying Mantis to Southern Praying Mantis and hundreds more effortlessly. Because Shang is the f%^&Uing master of Kung Fu.

Now, here's the thing. Kung Fu doesn't limit Shang. Rather it allows him the ability to adopt other styles. I'm all for Shang learning BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, Silat, Eskirma, Capoeira and so on and so forth. He shouldn't just be a Kung Fu martial artist, but a martial artist. I totally agree with that. HOWEVER, I guarantee you he'd would look at all of those styles through a Kung Fu lense. He'd see their principles and techniques and see similarities with ones found in Chinese martial arts. That's how he would master them.

Finally, I think Chinese wouldn't find Kung Fu stereotypical or offensive if it were depicted realistically. Because there's a lot of real life found in Kung Fu. Indeed, Kung Fu is a lot more than just techniques or fighting. It's hanging out with your Kung Fu brothers singing karaoke. It's watching as your sifu's face goes beet red after he drinks a little too much rice wine. It's morning training in the park while the retired grandmas do their morning dances and the school kids watch in wonder as they go off to school. It's walking the streets of Hong Kong, Shanghai, or Beijing and visiting a night market for some discount clothes or street food after doing some late night practice. It's practicing your hand techniques against a metal rail in the MTR station during the morning rush hour. It's these things and so much more.

That's Kung Fu. And that's Shang.

As for chi manipulation, it's subtle. It's invisible. Shang has mastered it, but definitely not up to the level of an Iron Fist.

Decided to leave this bit in. We agree quite a bit here also but you talk about a few thing I didn't know or thought of, so this was nice to read, especially the last paragraph. If the movie can capture a bit of this essence it'll be great to watch.

I think I simplified Shang Chi's training a little bit because I was thinking about how he received it. If he's raised in China then it's a lot more possible for his training to be more kung fu based because he's right there. But because I'm guessing he's going to be raised in the West most likely, I simplified it a little in my head and spread it to more common styles of today (unless his father is so rich he can send for the best masters of those kung fu styles in China to come to wherever they are and train his son lol). My idea was Shang Chi showed interest in martial arts as a child and his father obliged it (thinking one day he will use his son's skills to his own advantage), got him trained over the years and as an adult Shang Chi has become his head of security and his own personal bodyguard. Something happens and Shang Chi becomes under the employ of or works with the MI-6 since they notice his talents.

HIS FATHER (FU MANCHU)

The article I linked about this talked about keeping the Fu Manchu thing in-universe as a racist creation by the British Agent Sir Denis Nayland Smith and used as propaganda by the British, but it never really talked about his father actually being a villain, so you deciding that his father keeps the name to use it to impose fear is a very good idea which I like. I wonder if this means then that the movie should keep his father as an immortal? The Yellow Peril stuff is...really messed up but very interesting to read to say the least. They have to touch on it just a little bit.

[Ascended]

Regarding the idea of Shang's father being the real Mandarin.....I'm sorta torn, honestly.

One on hand, we dont ever get a sense of what the Ten Rings are in Iron Man, beyond "generic terror group." The guys we saw in that film could easily just have been one small part of "Fu Manchu's" criminal empire. It'd be a good way to tie Shang to the wider MCU in a subtle way while also finally fleshing out the Ten Rings (at long last). And we're not getting another Iron Man movie so this seems as good a place to do it as anywhere. And if Shang's father runs the Ten Rings, and he's been active for all this time, that sorta adds to his legend and gives him a little more credibility as a serious threat.

But on the other hand, Shang's film deserves a full and rich mythology all his own, without having to borrow Tony's leftovers from 2008. And if Shang's father is running multiple organizations like they're subsidies of his company.....I dunno, that might become a little too complex and weird, having to explain how he's "Fu Manchu" to this group (with the name used because of the racism and fear it embodies, if it's used at all), and "Mandarin" to this group, and so on. That's some serious "shadow manipulator" stuff, which is cool, but not necessary for making Shang's father a credible villain. And really, does it add much to Shang's story if his father is in control of the Ten Rings? And if it doesnt add to Shang's story then what's the point?

[Blind Wedjat]

I hope Shang Chi has the cocky swagger that Andrew Koji's character in Warrior has.

The actors own personalities tend to dictate some of the characters personality in Marvel movies. Kevin Feige has said that with ech movie the actors have had more input which has lead to them being closer to the actors own personalities.

Eh I'm not too sure if that's the personality I'd want for Shang Chi. A bit too cocky just like you pointed out. It's a bit refreshing to see an Asian character like that (especially channeling a bit of Bruce Lee's energy) but we have enough cocky MCU characters I think. And Shang Chi doesn't need to be too much of a Bruce Lee wannabe.

However, the way Andrew Koji performs his action scenes is really how I'd love to see Shang Chi fight. The fight scenes in Warrior are really good (1, 2, 3)

Regarding the idea of Shang's father being the real Mandarin.....I'm sorta torn, honestly.

One on hand, we dont ever get a sense of what the Ten Rings are in Iron Man, beyond "generic terror group." The guys we saw in that film could easily just have been one small part of "Fu Manchu's" criminal empire. It'd be a good way to tie Shang to the wider MCU in a subtle way while also finally fleshing out the Ten Rings (at long last). And we're not getting another Iron Man movie so this seems as good a place to do it as anywhere. And if Shang's father runs the Ten Rings, and he's been active for all this time, that sorta adds to his legend and gives him a little more credibility as a serious threat.

But on the other hand, Shang's film deserves a full and rich mythology all his own, without having to borrow Tony's leftovers from 2008. And if Shang's father is running multiple organizations like they're subsidies of his company.....I dunno, that might become a little too complex and weird, having to explain how he's "Fu Manchu" to this group (with the name used because of the racism and fear it embodies, if it's used at all), and "Mandarin" to this group, and so on. That's some serious "shadow manipulator" stuff, which is cool, but not necessary for making Shang's father a credible villain. And really, does it add much to Shang's story if his father is in control of the Ten Rings? And if it doesnt add to Shang's story then what's the point?

Honestly I just think the suggestion to make the Mandarin Shang Chi's father is just from people who want to see the MCU do something again with the Mandarin and they think Shang Chi's story is the avenue for that. I don't see how it benefits Shang Chi at all and I've never seen any of these suggestions say how it would.

I say that chapter is closed, and we should let Shang Chi have his own story and own mythology. If his father Zheng Zu doesn't feel like a threat in the comics, then make him one in the movies. I don't believe in borrowing villains for other characters because they're more popular or credible in the comics. Some of these obscure villains have amazing potential if the right person comes along and writes them well. This is how we got Killmonger, who is regarded as one of the MCU's best villains (and one of the best modern movie villains if we're being honest). Who saw Killmonger as a credible villain before the MCU touched him? No one.

[MichaelC]

I don't think The Mandarin works as a replacement for Fu Manchu simply because they have mutually exclusive themes. The Mandarin is a Gorilla Grodd type, embodying war and conquest and rage. He uses money and exploitation and slavery to blow his enemies to bits. He is a human Ares.

Fu Manchu is the quintessential lord of assassins, using poison and stealth. If the Mandarin is fiery War, then Fu Manchu is icy Death.

[Tien Long]

I always enjoy reading your thought and there's no disrespect anywhere haha. I think we generally agree on most things and you've got great incite being part Asian and being a real Shang Chi fan which makes this interest to learn more as the discussion continues.

Thanks for the compliments bro! Yeah, definitely digging your suggestions as well!

Wholeheartedly agree with a lot here that you've said here. I wanted to say a little bit about Shang Chi's look and the overall visual aesthetic of the film. I'm sure it's something they'll do but I'm hoping to see a lot of style in this film. Let's see what Chinese and Chinatown fashion is like, from the traditional to the modern, high fashion and street styles. This will be good too especially if they're going for a James Bond vibe. Marvel costuming has gotten better and more informed over the recent years so I'm expecting good things.

Pretty cool. Asian street styles and just what people in Asia are wearing right now are what other people around the world should know. I think a lot of people's conception of Asia in general or China in particular comes from movies about ancient China. People are starting to become aware that there are hip, modern styles out there in Asia.

I was also wondering how do we show Shang Chi getting involved with the MI-6? Marvel seems to be slowly ditching the traditional origin format, so it's possible that like Spider-Man: Homecoming, Black Panther, and Captain Marvel they may go straight into Shang Chi being an agent at the start of the film. I think it's a good way to establish some of his more modern and international MA combat training, but I'm not too sure if this allows him to be a young character (and I think him being young helps a little). But it's a good way to just dive right into things, cutting away the unnecessary and typical stuff and the rest can be explained via flashbacks.

The more I think about it, the more I think we should scrap Shang Chi being part of MI-6. It borrows a little bit too much from James Bond and lacks that Marvel connection. So what should Shang become a part of? Easy. He's one of the newest members of S.H.I.E.L.D. (Is S.H.I.E.L.D. still around in the MCU or is it still dead? No matter, I'd revive the organization just for Shang). Now for the movie he's a part of this entrenched part of the MCU. Black Jack Tarr, Clive Reston, Leiko Wu, all of them could be S.H.I.E.L.D. agents. The themes that were in the old MoKF issues would still be there too. S.H.I.E.L.D. recruits him to be their weapon against ZHeng Zu, but Shang hates doing their dirty work. He doesn't want to be a part of their "games of death and deceit."

Decided to leave this bit in. We agree quite a bit here also but you talk about a few thing I didn't know or thought of, so this was nice to read, especially the last paragraph. If the movie can capture a bit of this essence it'll be great to watch.

Ha, thanks bro. Needless to say, some of those responses were based off of personal experiences. Kung Fu isn't techniques or training. It can be just ordinary, simple life. Strolling the streets of Hong Kong or Shanghai, drinking a cup of tea at a local restaurant, all of that is part of the Kung Fu experience.

I think I simplified Shang Chi's training a little bit because I was thinking about how he received it. If he's raised in China then it's a lot more possible for his training to be more kung fu based because he's right there. But because I'm guessing he's going to be raised in the West most likely, I simplified it a little in my head and spread it to more common styles of today (unless his father is so rich he can send for the best masters of those kung fu styles in China to come to wherever they are and train his son lol). My idea was Shang Chi showed interest in martial arts as a child and his father obliged it (thinking one day he will use his son's skills to his own advantage), got him trained over the years and as an adult Shang Chi has become his head of security and his own personal bodyguard. Something happens and Shang Chi becomes under the employ of or works with the MI-6 since they notice his talents.

Got it bro. Yeah, idealistically I'd love for him to be master of all the styles of Kung Fu, but I see your point on how if raised in America or the west, he could only learn so much. Nice idea about being noticed by MI-6.

The article I linked about this talked about keeping the Fu Manchu thing in-universe as a racist creation by the British Agent Sir Denis Nayland Smith and used as propaganda by the British, but it never really talked about his father actually being a villain, so you deciding that his father keeps the name to use it to impose fear is a very good idea which I like. I wonder if this means then that the movie should keep his father as an immortal? The Yellow Peril stuff is...really messed up but very interesting to read to say the least. They have to touch on it just a little bit.

Honestly I just think the suggestion to make the Mandarin Shang Chi's father is just from people who want to see the MCU do something again with the Mandarin and they think Shang Chi's story is the avenue for that. I don't see how it benefits Shang Chi at all and I've never seen any of these suggestions say how it would.

I say that chapter is closed, and we should let Shang Chi have his own story and own mythology. If his father Zheng Zu doesn't feel like a threat in the comics, then make him one in the movies. I don't believe in borrowing villains for other characters because they're more popular or credible in the comics. Some of these obscure villains have amazing potential if the right person comes along and writes them well. This is how we got Killmonger, who is regarded as one of the MCU's best villains (and one of the best modern movie villains if we're being honest). Who saw Killmonger as a credible villain before the MCU touched him? No one.

I don't think The Mandarin works as a replacement for Fu Manchu simply because they have mutually exclusive themes. The Mandarin is a Gorilla Grodd type, embodying war and conquest and rage. He uses money and exploitation and slavery to blow his enemies to bits. He is a human Ares.

Fu Manchu is the quintessential lord of assassins, using poison and stealth. If the Mandarin is fiery War, then Fu Manchu is icy Death.

It really frustrates me that Shang's father is not only associated with, but the embodiment of the Yellow Peril. Strip away all of the racist overtones and one finds that Shang Chi's father is a really amazing character. He's just this crafty, devious, calculating, yet subtle villain (traits which are so appealling to a Chinese audience by the way.) He could be like a Killmonger who comes out of nowhere to become everyone's favorite character. But if everyone, Chinese audiences included, feel that Shang's father is just a racist and insulting caricature, if no villain can be Chinese because of Orientalist this and Yellow Peril that....alright, fine we'll just get some generic bad guy fro Shang to fight.

Eh I'm not too sure if that's the personality I'd want for Shang Chi. A bit too cocky just like you pointed out. It's a bit refreshing to see an Asian character like that (especially channeling a bit of Bruce Lee's energy) but we have enough cocky MCU characters I think. And Shang Chi doesn't need to be too much of a Bruce Lee wannabe.

I hear ya. I mean yeah this scene from Warrior (where can I watch this series? Please? Do I have to get Hulu or Cinemax to do so?) is pretty cool...



...but "fat, white fucks"? Yeah, I can see how a lot of other Asians would love that. Shang on the other hand, he'd never say that. He's not an angry Asian man. In that situation, he'd smile and nod, say something diplomatic, and be on his way. Shang's a bit wiser than others. He knows that violence begets violence, that everyone comes from Dao and we are all interconnected. That maybe the person who insults and spits on you one day might be your ally the next. That'd be his hope anyway.

[MichaelC]

It really frustrates me that Shang's father is not only associated with, but the embodiment of the Yellow Peril. Strip away all of the racist overtones and one finds that Shang Chi's father is a really amazing character. He's just this crafty, devious, calculating, yet subtle villain (traits which are so appealling to a Chinese audience by the way.) He could be like a Killmonger who comes out of nowhere to become everyone's favorite character. But if everyone, Chinese audiences included, feel that Shang's father is just a racist and insulting caricature, if no villain can be Chinese because of Orientalist this and Yellow Peril that....alright, fine we'll just get some generic bad guy fro Shang to fight.

Yeah, it's something that frustrates me about Asian villains in general: the way they are no longer allowed, because literally all comicbook tropes are also racist stereotypes.

Kingpin is a devious crimelord who is also a sumo-wrestler. He'd be called racist if he weren't white.

Batman is a ninja who is also a detective. He'd be called a racist stereotype if he weren't white.

Iron Man is a nerd who pilots a mech. He'd be called a racist stereotype if he weren't white.

Even someone like Martian Manhunter has a personality mostly defined by having this vaguely eastern spiritual outlook on the world.

The simple truth is, comicbooks are the land of martial artists and nerdy geniuses and ninjas and greedy businessmen and crimelords and wise spiritual mentors. And if Asians aren't allowed to be any of those things, well, then you either end up writing them so bland that they get pushed aside by white characters who shamelessly embody those tropes, or you banish them from comics altogether.

[Ascended]

Honestly I just think the suggestion to make the Mandarin Shang Chi's father is just from people who want to see the MCU do something again with the Mandarin and they think Shang Chi's story is the avenue for that. I don't see how it benefits Shang Chi at all and I've never seen any of these suggestions say how it would.

I think it might serve to make Zheng seem like more of a global threat. I mean, imagine finding out that, of the FBI's top ten most-wanted people, seven of them were the same person manipulating multiple criminal empires and terror groups, possibly without any of those groups even knowing it. That would make that individual a much more dangerous, resourceful threat. So it'd benefit Shang in that way, by making the villain seem bigger and badder. To the Ten Rings, he's "the Mandarin;" the (as someone said) passionate embodiment of war (and several aspects of Yellow Peril racism/fear). To another group, he's "Fu Manchu" (or whatever non-racist alias they go with) a master of stealth and cunning (another aspect of Yellow Peril racism/fear). To yet another group he's someone else. To Shang, he's Zheng; the strict but fair father (or however they spin that dynamic). Using different aliases to explore different aspects of racism *could* be interesting (as Panther explored the topic in interesting ways), while also making Zheng *the* ultimate crime boss on earth. Sort of the Keyser Soze of the MCU.

But I dont think they need to go to such lengths. Zheng is "good enough" on his own to make for a compelling foe/character and like I said earlier (and others have said too) Shang deserves to stand firmly on his own mythology instead of borrowing RDJr's leftovers from 2008. Like I said, I'm a little torn on the idea because I *can* see an avenue where this might be fun, but largely I do fall on the "its a bad idea" side of the debate.

[chamber-music]

I was hoping they would use Zheng Zu as the Keyser Soze of the MCU. A mastermind pulling the strings across a vast global criminal network. I hope they treat his name and reputation like Kingpin in Daredevil season 1. People are afraid to say his name or talk about him in the open because he is so powerful and has such influence.

I think the difference between Mandarin and Fu Manchu (as he used to be known when Marvel had the rights) is that Mandarin is more like a Asian Doctor Doom while Fu Manchu is more like Ra's al Ghul.

[Blind Wedjat]

Thanks for the compliments bro! Yeah, definitely digging your suggestions as well!

No problem at all man!

The more I think about it, the more I think we should scrap Shang Chi being part of MI-6. It borrows a little bit too much from James Bond and lacks that Marvel connection. So what should Shang become a part of? Easy. He's one of the newest members of S.H.I.E.L.D.

I think why I would prefer to see MI6 instead of S.H.I.E.L.D. is because I think Britain and China have had richer and more interesting relations than compared to America and China, and it isn't something that's discussed much in films I think. British imperialism in China was such a strong effort and with the Opium Wars and the Yellow Peril partially originating from some of those events, you can have a dynamic between Shang Chi and a secret intelligence service representing the British government (that his father could have so much hidden hatred for because of the past). Those guys you mentioned could more or less be the MI6 team (they are in the comics) and it's even more interesting that Leiko Wu is also of Chinese heritage but a British citizen. Denis Nayland Smith could be the leader.

Plus I think S.H.I.E.L.D. is a bit overexposed at this point, with the TV show, several recent presences in Age of Ultron, Captain Marvel and Spider-Man: Homecoming. They're more or less the only active secret intelligence agency in the MCU, and I'd like to see a new one such as MI-6 and how the differ while offering different story potential. Ever since the HYDRA reveal and now the Skrull invasion, S.H.I.E.L.D. have more or less been painted as the good guys. Using a completely new service I think allows the story to properly paint them as more morally grey.

(where can I watch this series? Please? Do I have to get Hulu or Cinemax to do so?)

Warrior is available on Hulu and Cinemax.

It really frustrates me that Shang's father is not only associated with, but the embodiment of the Yellow Peril. Strip away all of the racist overtones and one finds that Shang Chi's father is a really amazing character. He's just this crafty, devious, calculating, yet subtle villain (traits which are so appealling to a Chinese audience by the way.)

Yeah, it's something that frustrates me about Asian villains in general: the way they are no longer allowed, because literally all comicbook tropes are also racist stereotypes.

Well tropes become racist when they're negative stereotypes or literary ideas only prescribed to characters of a certain race because that is the perceived notion or underlying racist views authors have of people of that race. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a character being a tech wiz, a ninja martial artist, a crime lord or having a mystical/spiritual connection. But it shouldn't be the only thing that defines Asian characters, and that's largely the problem.

Asian characters in the MCU so far consist of Wong (mystic), Helen Cho (a scientist), Ned (a stereotypical nerd), Trevor Slattery/faux-Mandarin (an actor/criminal), and the Ten Rings guys (terrorists). That's not great representation at all, the only one that might not even be a stereotype is Slattery (but he's a joke of a character). At least Wong is funny and portrayed far better than his comic book counterpart (as Strange's equal and not his kung fu kicking manservant) and Ned seems to be having a love life (which is great for kids who look like him).

The problem is when those are the only images that are shown about Asian people. Think about why Shuri and Okoye became breakout characters: the images of a black or African girl being a science and tech wiz and the image of a strong, black, bald and proud female warrior in a blockbuster is not something you see often these days. It's why Crazy Rich Asians took off in the US and was a big deal for Asian Americans, because they often don't see Asians or Asian Americans be in romantic comedies living lavish lifestyles and pursuing love lives (and being very good looking and desirable). When minority people have been fed the same images for a long time they start to desire something more, and that's how BP and CRA became huge.

Marvel can (and should) keep Shang Chi as a martial artist and Zheng Zu as an evil schemer, but they need to add things to those stereotypes that at least make them feel more like people and actual characters. I'll talk a little bit more about what to do with Zheng Zu below but things that can help Shang Chi (as said earlier) include making him desirable, giving him romantic interests, and a great and relatable personality and character arc. For Zheng Zu, show that he does genuinely both Shang Chi and his mother and has healthy relationships with them (despite his ways unbeknown to them) rather than being an abuser or seducer. And give him a complex yet understandable motivation for why he does what he does.

[B]I think it might serve to make Zheng seem like more of a global threat. I mean, imagine finding out that, of the FBI's top ten most-wanted people, seven of them were the same person manipulating multiple criminal empires and terror groups, possibly without any of those groups even knowing it... Sort of the Keyser Soze of the MCU.

I totally see where you're coming from, but this can still be done I think without making him the Mandarin. Zheng Zu has the Si-Fan, a crime syndicate that does have tentacles all over the world from Asia to Africa. He may not be as prolific as the Mandarin but he does have that reach. And besides, the film can work to make him seem like a global threat. So I can see how you can also make him "the Mandarin" this way, but you can even make him the man behind the Mandarin (say Ten Rings was a sect of the Si-Fan that branched off). I mean, is saying Zheng Zu is the Mandarin really saying much? The Ten Rings didn't really accomplish much in my opinion. Obadiah Stane killed the guys that captured Tony, and the whole Iron Man 3 fiasco further ruined their image. Therefore their somewhat incompetence can be attributed to them no longer following Zheng Zu.

I was hoping they would use Zheng Zu as the Keyser Soze of the MCU. A mastermind pulling the strings across a vast global criminal network. I hope they treat his name and reputation like Kingpin in Daredevil season 1. People are afraid to say his name or talk about him in the open because he is so powerful and has such influence.

Funny how you and the user both mention Keyser Soze as an inspiration for Zheng Zu. I think that's a good foundation to look at. While thinking about it, two other characters that came to my mind that can also be inspirations were Vandal Savage and Ra's al Ghul. These two men are primarily known as immortals, and since Zheng Zu is said to be one also in the comics, I think that's something the film could play with. Like in Batman Begins, the film might not have to outright confirm that he is immortal, but suggest that he is and leave it up to interpretation.

But I particularly like Vandal Savage because of how the character's immortality has allowed to adopt the identities of historical figures like Khafre the pharaoh, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, and Vlad the Impaler and meant he interacted with Napoleon Bonaparte, Erik the Red, Ra's al Ghul and Adolf Hitler. Infer the same thing with Zheng Zu but keep it limited to Asian and Chinese history. Suggest he lived through several dynasties, advised kings, sultans and emperors (and maybe he was some of them), travelled the world over in ancient times, witnessed (and maybe instigated) wars like the Opium Wars, and through these times is how he acquired knowledge, built the Si-Fan, and his legend increased. Make the accounts unreliable, evidence suggesting fact and fiction. Elements of the Yellow Peril and Fu Manchu were based off his legend, but they perverted his motivations and appearance, making a mockery out of him thinking they could take some of power and influence and inspired Western imperialist propaganda.

The Si-Fan then can now have elements of Ra's al Ghul's League of Assassins, responsible for various war and assassination efforts across Asia. Or say, they were a group dedicated to fighting off British imperialism in Asia, the Middle East and North Africa. The perfect antagonising force to Britain and MI6. Humanise Zheng Zu by suggesting meeting his mother (and this would be a lot better if she's Chinese or Asian too) is what softened him a bit, and he finally decided to settle down and raise a family. Say he had more or less lost most of his efforts to the British and she found him when he was down in the dumps and brought him out of it, and he loves her because of that. This makes Shang Chi special as his first ever child (if he truly is immortal) and the choice Shang Chi makes to defy him have more dramatic weight.

[MichaelC]

I mean, let's look at the Nolan Batman movies. In his Bruce Wayne persona, he's kind of goofy, but he uses that superficial goofyness to perform detective work. If he were Asian, there would outrage about how he's like Charlie Chan and Mr. Kawati and the like. And when he's not in his Bruce Wayne persona, he's a ninja. Oh my god the rage that would produce, an Asian character who blends the tropes of Charlie Chan and ninjas. An Asian detective ninja, let's burn the creators at the stake! One of the greatest characters in fiction would get his creators demonized if he were created today, and was Asian.

Now I'm sure the creators would argue that he's more than those tropes, that there are layers to the character despite the superficial resemblance to Asian stereotypes, but it wouldn't matter. The movie's defenders would just be dismissed as racist apologists.

[Ascended]

I totally see where you're coming from, but this can still be done I think without making him the Mandarin. Zheng Zu has the Si-Fan, a crime syndicate that does have tentacles all over the world from Asia to Africa. He may not be as prolific as the Mandarin but he does have that reach. And besides, the film can work to make him seem like a global threat. So I can see how you can also make him "the Mandarin" this way, but you can even make him the man behind the Mandarin (say Ten Rings was a sect of the Si-Fan that branched off). I mean, is saying Zheng Zu is the Mandarin really saying much? The Ten Rings didn't really accomplish much in my opinion. Obadiah Stane killed the guys that captured Tony, and the whole Iron Man 3 fiasco further ruined their image. Therefore their somewhat incompetence can be attributed to them no longer following Zheng Zu.

You could totally do this sort of Soze thing without involving the Mandarin or the Ten Rings, absolutely. It'd be a touchstone for MCU fans and little more.

Like I said, I'm a little torn on the idea because I do like the Soze thing, conceptually, but it's certainly nothing Zheng needs.

[Blind Wedjat]

I mean, let's look at the Nolan Batman movies. In his Bruce Wayne persona, he's kind of goofy, but he uses that superficial goofyness to perform detective work. If he were Asian, there would outrage about how he's like Charlie Chan and Mr. Kawati and the like. And when he's not in his Bruce Wayne persona, he's a ninja. Oh my god the rage that would produce, an Asian character who blends the tropes of Charlie Chan and ninjas. An Asian detective ninja, let's burn the creators at the stake! One of the greatest characters in fiction would get his creators demonized if he were created today, and was Asian.

Now I'm sure the creators would argue that he's more than those tropes, that there are layers to the character despite the superficial resemblance to Asian stereotypes, but it wouldn't matter. The movie's defenders would just be dismissed as racist apologists.

I agree there are always going to people who would complain about anything, but I think this is an oversimplification. I'd argue that if Bruce Wayne was Asian in Batman Begins (and say he always was in the comics) the majority wouldn't have an issue.

For starters, Bruce Wayne in the film is more popularly defined by his rich playboy persona. That's not something you often see Asian men being depicted as in Hollywood. I'm almost 100% sure Crazy Rich Asians was the first movie to do this. Second there's his upbringing. Change the Waynes to Asian people and they still all work as characters. Showing a young Bruce being raised by loving parents, having relatable fears and a heartbreaking tragedy aren't dimensions a lot of Asian children are shown to have.

The only part about this that might be problematic might be Bruce's journey to the East, but that's a stereotype of white characters, not Asian ones: white man travels to obscure Asian land seeking spiritual guidance, is taught the ways and become better than everybody else because reasons. That's a heavy stereotype (think Iron Fist, Doctor Strange, many Western martial arts films). Asians aren't even allowed to be the best at something that's "part of their own cultures". I think another benefit you're missing is how Nolan tried his best to depict ninjustu as realistic as possible, ditching the whole mystical fantasy BS most Asian martial arts are portrayed as in the West (and in manga for instance). I think if a movie tried to be that respectful and used an Asian lead (say a Japanese Bruce Wayne), a lot more Asian people would respect it.

I'd also argue that while Batman in the film does use ninjustu techniques, the Batman persona isn't strictly defined by being a ninja or being Asian. He's a vigilante using the symbol of bats. I'm pretty sure bats are in every corner of the globe, and the race of the person behind the Batsuit doesn't matter because the same message is still being communicated. And even when Bruce Wayne/Batman is being a detective, he isn't an asexual, submissive, fortune cookie wisdom spouting one like Charlie Chan.

Take Batman Begins as it is and make Bruce Wayne Japanese and I don't think there's a single thing that's racially offensive. Same thing goes for the Iron Man movie. Sure, Tony is a tech and science wiz but he's got a personality and a persona that goes beyond those things that Asian men aren't usually allowed to have: being wealthy, having romantic and sexual desires, being in charge and being heroic in a way that isn't threatening. Many of these things (particularly sexuality) are usually depicted as threatening, or that Asian men are so asexual that they aren't a threat.

In a way these are the best kind if heroes (where race and culture aren't definitive) and the problem is there aren't as many Asian characters like this. Think about how characters like Miles Morales and Kamala Khan can exist because the ideals and personas their mentors embody aren't race or ethnicity specific. Shang Chi as he is in the comics isn't really like that. He's a stereotype (even though he's gotten way better over the years). The idea then should be to keep things that work, remove the ones that don't and add new traits that are universally appealing.

[Tien Long]

No problem at all man!

I think why I would prefer to see MI6 instead of S.H.I.E.L.D. is because I think Britain and China have had richer and more interesting relations than compared to America and China, and it isn't something that's discussed much in films I think. British imperialism in China was such a strong effort and with the Opium Wars and the Yellow Peril partially originating from some of those events, you can have a dynamic between Shang Chi and a secret intelligence service representing the British government (that his father could have so much hidden hatred for because of the past). Those guys you mentioned could more or less be the MI6 team (they are in the comics) and it's even more interesting that Leiko Wu is also of Chinese heritage but a British citizen. Denis Nayland Smith could be the leader.

Plus I think S.H.I.E.L.D. is a bit overexposed at this point, with the TV show, several recent presences in Age of Ultron, Captain Marvel and Spider-Man: Homecoming. They're more or less the only active secret intelligence agency in the MCU, and I'd like to see a new one such as MI-6 and how the differ while offering different story potential. Ever since the HYDRA reveal and now the Skrull invasion, S.H.I.E.L.D. have more or less been painted as the good guys. Using a completely new service I think allows the story to properly paint them as more morally grey.

Good points. Personally, I think it could work either way, but an MI-6 angle could bring up a lot of morally grey issues. Shang-Chi working for the former great imperialists and colonizers. Shang's father would definitely feel he's not wrong if he opposed MI-6.

Warrior is available on Hulu and Cinemax.

D'oh! Hoping if there are any "special" websites where could watch the series. .

Well tropes become racist when they're negative stereotypes or literary ideas only prescribed to characters of a certain race because that is the perceived notion or underlying racist views authors have of people of that race. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a character being a tech wiz, a ninja martial artist, a crime lord or having a mystical/spiritual connection. But it shouldn't be the only thing that defines Asian characters, and that's largely the problem.

Asian characters in the MCU so far consist of Wong (mystic), Helen Cho (a scientist), Ned (a stereotypical nerd), Trevor Slattery/faux-Mandarin (an actor/criminal), and the Ten Rings guys (terrorists). That's not great representation at all, the only one that might not even be a stereotype is Slattery (but he's a joke of a character). At least Wong is funny and portrayed far better than his comic book counterpart (as Strange's equal and not his kung fu kicking manservant) and Ned seems to be having a love life (which is great for kids who look like him).

The problem is when those are the only images that are shown about Asian people. Think about why Shuri and Okoye became breakout characters: the images of a black or African girl being a science and tech wiz and the image of a strong, black, bald and proud female warrior in a blockbuster is not something you see often these days. It's why Crazy Rich Asians took off in the US and was a big deal for Asian Americans, because they often don't see Asians or Asian Americans be in romantic comedies living lavish lifestyles and pursuing love lives (and being very good looking and desirable). When minority people have been fed the same images for a long time they start to desire something more, and that's how BP and CRA became huge.

Marvel can (and should) keep Shang Chi as a martial artist and Zheng Zu as an evil schemer, but they need to add things to those stereotypes that at least make them feel more like people and actual characters. I'll talk a little bit more about what to do with Zheng Zu below but things that can help Shang Chi (as said earlier) include making him desirable, giving him romantic interests, and a great and relatable personality and character arc. For Zheng Zu, show that he does genuinely both Shang Chi and his mother and has healthy relationships with them (despite his ways unbeknown to them) rather than being an abuser or seducer. And give him a complex yet understandable motivation for why he does what he does.

Very true. It's all about adding layers and personality to these characters. Again, there's nothing wrong with Kung Fu master this or schemer that, but it's a big hurdle since it is the defining trait. And that's the essential question, would an audience be willing to give Shang a chance, by overcoming the prejudices and see Shang's character? I just hope when that first trailer comes up audiences will see that Shang isn't just a martial artist, but a human. Marvel's got to really emphasize that when it starts to promote the film.

But I particularly like Vandal Savage because of how the character's immortality has allowed to adopt the identities of historical figures like Khafre the pharaoh, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, and Vlad the Impaler and meant he interacted with Napoleon Bonaparte, Erik the Red, Ra's al Ghul and Adolf Hitler. Infer the same thing with Zheng Zu but keep it limited to Asian and Chinese history. Suggest he lived through several dynasties, advised kings, sultans and emperors (and maybe he was some of them), travelled the world over in ancient times, witnessed (and maybe instigated) wars like the Opium Wars, and through these times is how he acquired knowledge, built the Si-Fan, and his legend increased. Make the accounts unreliable, evidence suggesting fact and fiction. Elements of the Yellow Peril and Fu Manchu were based off his legend, but they perverted his motivations and appearance, making a mockery out of him thinking they could take some of power and influence and inspired Western imperialist propaganda.

The Si-Fan then can now have elements of Ra's al Ghul's League of Assassins, responsible for various war and assassination efforts across Asia. Or say, they were a group dedicated to fighting off British imperialism in Asia, the Middle East and North Africa. The perfect antagonising force to Britain and MI6. Humanise Zheng Zu by suggesting meeting his mother (and this would be a lot better if she's Chinese or Asian too) is what softened him a bit, and he finally decided to settle down and raise a family. Say he had more or less lost most of his efforts to the British and she found him when he was down in the dumps and brought him out of it, and he loves her because of that. This makes Shang Chi special as his first ever child (if he truly is immortal) and the choice Shang Chi makes to defy him have more dramatic weight.

Shang's father has a ton of potential which has yet to be realized. I've always stated that Shang's father was a lot more powerful than people realized. There had to be a reason why someone like Apocalypse or the Hand never took over China or parts of Asia. Most definitely, I feel that these suggestions could realize that potential of how long lived and extensive his reach has been. Whether one of his identities is the Mandarin or not...I'd keep them separate. Let Shang and his father develop their unique background.

[Tien Long]

So, we've talked about Zheng Zu being the main villain. But who could be the main henchmen, the second in command?

Top 3 contenders for me would be Cat:



Razor Fist:


or Zaran:


Cat would be good for the hand to hand. But Razor Fist and Zaran look a lot meaner and more intimidating.