Marvels Most Controversial Moments

[jetengine]

Secret Empire wouldn't have been half as divisive if:

a) they didn't market it as 'oh yes, this is the real Cap, not a copy' when in reality, it was a copy.
b) they didn't send pro-Hydra paraphernalia to the shops to promote it.
c) Donald Trump didn't win the presidency and Charlotteville didn't happen. In other words, Marvel used extraordinarily bad timing for a story like that, and made the mistake of using a hero synonymous with WW2 to do it, who was created by two Jewish creators to be the world's first SJW.
d) They used a character made wildly popular by the MCU. Those of us who have been reading comics forever just kind of rolled our eyes and went, 'this will be ret-conned before the run is even done'. But the bulk of the protesting came from non-comic readers who aren't familiar with how comics work.

I mean, I didn't like it because I don't particularly like watching any incarnation of my favorite character (Steve) kill Rick Jones or destroy Vegas, but Marvel's stupidity in how they marketed it was the real pot stirrer.

Lets not forget starting all this on Caps 75th Anniversary.

[Triniking1234]

Secret Empire wouldn't have been half as divisive if:

a) they didn't market it as 'oh yes, this is the real Cap, not a copy' when in reality, it was a copy.
b) they didn't send pro-Hydra paraphernalia to the shops to promote it.
c) Donald Trump didn't win the presidency and Charlotteville didn't happen. In other words, Marvel used extraordinarily bad timing for a story like that, and made the mistake of using a hero synonymous with WW2 to do it, who was created by two Jewish creators to be the world's first SJW.
d) They used a character made wildly popular by the MCU. Those of us who have been reading comics forever just kind of rolled our eyes and went, 'this will be ret-conned before the run is even done'. But the bulk of the protesting came from non-comic readers who aren't familiar with how comics work.

I mean, I didn't like it because I don't particularly like watching any incarnation of my favorite character (Steve) kill Rick Jones or destroy Vegas, but Marvel's stupidity in how they marketed it was the real pot stirrer.

That factor fueled why that storyline was controversial. If Jack Kirby did a "Red Skull turns Cap evil" before he left Marvel, no one would've batted an eye because they know it's a fictional story and the bad guys always wins. That Trump derangement syndrome thing or whatever kinda sullied that storyline (not to mention Spencer didn't stick the landing and that stupid Generatons crap).

[capandkirby]

People being scared because of the MCU was good, it means they care. The job of marketing is to make people care. There is no sense in promoting a story trying to relieve people with stuff like "don't worry, he's a copy." He also technically wasn't a copy during the marketing, he was the real Captain America until all of reality is restored at the end. But all of this is way more important and much better than people not caring and not believing the stakes. And the promotion revolving around fictional tentacle skulls is no worse than Star Wars promoting Stormtroopers, or horror movie merchandise. If they had diverted solid plans because of the political climate instead of using it as a way to say something about it, they'd be cowards. When Steve's creators did smaller, similar types of stories that would have caused outrage today, it exposes the foolishness of people daring to speak for the deceased they never knew.

At the end of the day, the entire storyline was finished as planned. The worst part about it was the harassment and threats towards people involved, and the blame for that's on the people who did it, not the publishing company who dared to publish stuff.

I mean, I agree with you that sending creators death threats was vile. Full agreement there. I also agree that it's a good things that fans are invested in the characters. They should be, that's the entire point of storytelling to begin with, to make people become invested in it. But, it's a bit of a false equivalence to compare what Kirby did in the sixties with Cap to what Marvel did when promoting Secret Empire. Kirby's Cap story that had Steve brainwashed was never marketed as 'this is the real Captain America' nor was that story particularly long, in fact, it's been awhile (Tales of Suspense, right? ...I need to do a reread, it's been years), but wasn't it resolved in the same issue or the issue just after? Wherein the Hydra!Cap storyline lasted over a year, if you count the Captain America: Steve Rogers book, AND was marketed as 'the real Cap'. Honestly, whether you agree with the outrage or not, Marvel did stir it up in a way that was not at all conducive to sales (because 2017 was the worst year for comic sales since 2011, experiencing over a ten percent drop) and made them look really bad. Even they admit they handled it badly. And they completely, totally underestimated Steve's popularity. Spencer, himself, stated something along the lines of (paraphrasing) "I never imagined when taking the character just how passionate fans are about him". It was a matter of being tone-deaf when it comes to their audience.

[U.N. Owen]

Another thing with Secret Empire is that politics in comics is highly different from politics in real life. In real life, gun control is a serious issue, but in a fictional world where alien invasions happen every other Tuesday, having a highly different sentiment on the same topic is to be expected. What I didn't like is that SE had reality warping in a story meant to be a political thriller turned into what basically amounts to hitting the reset button.

[capandkirby]

Lets not forget starting all this on Caps 75th Anniversary.

This too. I mean they had that 75th anniversary special on tv, with Mark Waid and Steve Englehart granting interviews, and whatnot. And during that special they revisited Cap's origin as a political protest cartoon. i.e. a statement being made by Kirby and Simon protesting America not taking a firm enough stance against Hitler (since Cap #1 came out in March of 1941 and Pearl Harbor happened in December of 1941). It was not wise to make that fresh in everyone's subconscious if you're planning on promoting a false reality created by the cosmic cube at Red Skull's design as 'this evil Cap is the real Cap' a few months later. Completely counter-productive. Because the phrase 'all publicity is good publicity' rings false when it comes to the fact that people vote with their dollars and if you make them angry enough, they're not going to buy.

[SuperiorIronman]

Hold on...she has her own book now.

And correct me if im wrong but aren't Iron Man sales sliding back to what they were when she was in the book? (that is around the same level they were pre-Bendis).

I agree that Bendis could have handled her introduction better now but she's going to start appearing in several different places.

The difference being is that Riri's introduction was painful and caused a slide whereas currently the book can't seem to get out on time on top of it being a monthly release. Both slides are under different circumstances. Invincible was bad large in part to the Riri push, Tony Stark can't seem to release on time. Comparatively as well was that Invincible didn't do that well critically whereas the Tony Stark book does much better.

The places you can find Riri?
-Avengers Academy is shutting down and even then she's behind a paywall
-Future fight has her locked behind a paywall
-The most recent Lego game has her at least

The animated productions have been announced but nothing's been released outside of concept art of Riri.

And while she does have her own book, that's looking to be between 30-50 thousand in sales. Not that much different with the current Iron man title.

[TheMaker1610]

After Hickman's Avengers, and Secret Wars, there were no Marvel Books I was interested at, as the ANAD era bored me to no end (with the exception of Ms Marvel)
Then, Avengers Standoff happened, which picked my curiousity, and I really liked it a lot (that Red Skull ending was great imo)
After that, I got Spencer's 1st Cap Run which I liked, and then, the whole Steve's HAIL HYDRA thing exploded worldwide (oh Lord, those days were WILD, to say the least.. the whole internet went nuts, and becam warzone-like)
But, the whole premise really raised my interest, and imo, Spencer was killing it
Seeing Steve manipulating and outplaying the whole MU was a great, and well executed imo
Civil War II: The Oath is my favorite book of all time for a lot of reasons (I will explain why later), and the Secret Empire tease pumped me up
Unsurprisingly, I LOVED Secret Empire, as it wad the culmination of Spencer's work on both Steve and Sam

Yeah, the timing for the whole thing was poor as someone above said (writing about Fascism post-Trump lmao), but I am sure most of you cant deny that Spencer did an awesome work building up to that event since the end of Standoff, and I greatly commend him for that (as most current events happen with little or zero build up, see civil war 2)

In short, while highly controversial for all reasons mentioned above, I really enjoyed the Caps' Runs, and Secret Empire, and I really think the hate was unwarranted imo (specially since the ones that complained the most were non-comicbook readers at all)
Also.. death threats? Uh..

On another one, I find funny how different Spencer's Spidey seems in comparation to his Cap(s), like if a different writter was on it instead (His Spidey I highly recommend also, 10/10 atm)

[Cmbmool]

Secret Empire wouldn't have been half as divisive if:

a) they didn't market it as 'oh yes, this is the real Cap, not a copy' when in reality, it was a copy.
b) they didn't send pro-Hydra paraphernalia to the shops to promote it.
c) Donald Trump didn't win the presidency and Charlotteville didn't happen. In other words, Marvel used extraordinarily bad timing for a story like that, and made the mistake of using a hero synonymous with WW2 to do it, who was created by two Jewish creators to be the world's first SJW.
d) They used a character made wildly popular by the MCU. Those of us who have been reading comics forever just kind of rolled our eyes and went, 'this will be ret-conned before the run is even done'. But the bulk of the protesting came from non-comic readers who aren't familiar with how comics work.

I mean, I didn't like it because I don't particularly like watching any incarnation of my favorite character (Steve) kill Rick Jones or destroy Vegas, but Marvel's stupidity in how they marketed it was the real pot stirrer.

Just explain to me one thing: HOW is Hydra Cap not the "Real" Captain America when we saw him planning all of this from the start of his whole "Hail Hydra" Moment ?

Plus the Battle of Steve Rogers memories and all that ?

HOW is he not the "REAL" Steve Rogers when the one we saw in the end of Secret Empire was a fake created to be the "Real" Captain America ?

[theoneandonly]

wonder what is more controversial; saluting Hitler or hailing hydra?

[TheMaker1610]

wonder what is more controversial; saluting Hitler or hailing hydra?

Remember when HAIL HYDRA was actually a world-wide meme back in 2014, because of the Winter Soldier movie? Good times, good times :P

[theoneandonly]

Remember when HAIL HYDRA was actually a world-wide meme back in 2014, because of the Winter Soldier movie? Good times, good times :P

Lol sure do. by the way *subtly leans in and whispers* Hail Hydra!

[TheMaker1610]

Lol sure do. by the way *subtly leans in and whispers* Hail Hydra!

https://giphy.com/gifs/hail-hydra-ca...YnD09WU6e3xdZu

[Blunt-Man]

On the note that Everyone is thinking about Cap, How About The Death Of Collosus i remember picking that copy of Uncanny X-Men up as a kid at Meijer with my mom while she was shopping for food i always wondered off anywho , i read through it at about 10 maybe 11 years old and for the first time ever a comic or a character a story actually moved me to tears .

the first book i ever read and i mean as a kid and could read it and maybe not understand it was a bunch of batman back issues and a old Copy of Marvel Masterworks Giant Sized X-Men and i remember loving all those new characters and not even knowing Cyclops or Jean or Beast or even Havok or Polaris to that level as a kid but Those characters that Chris Clairemont Created i believe along with Len Wein impacted me heavily from a young age even in the early to mid 90s that i grew up during .

I love Colossus , Nightcrawler and Sunfire off the bat and obviously who didnt love banshee Storm or Wolverine but Nightcrawler and Colossus really stuck out to me i thought as characters even now i feel there are very much so under rated .

[capandkirby]

Just explain to me one thing: HOW is Hydra Cap not the "Real" Captain America when we saw him planning all of this from the start of his whole "Hail Hydra" Moment ?

Plus the Battle of Steve Rogers memories and all that ?

HOW is he not the "REAL" Steve Rogers when the one we saw in the end of Secret Empire was a fake created to be the "Real" Captain America ?

Dear god, this conversation AGAIN. Fine.

Because the cosmic cube didn’t just change Steve’s personality, she changed his entire reality. She created, under Red Skull’s direction, a different childhood, a different history, hell she even changed WW2 for hydra!Steve. If it takes a whole village to raise a child, Hydra!Steve had a completly different childhood to the Steve we know. She even killed Sarah Rogers way earlier than what we know to be accurate in real!Steve’s reality and had him raised by a pro-Hydra foster parent. Hydra!Steve was sent to a Hydra boarding school, whereas our Steve grew up poor in a tenement on the lower Eastside (just like Jack Kirby). Everything that made Steve Rogers who he was, including an entire lifetime of memories, was altered. And we are a conglomerate of our memories.

But she (the cosmic cube) kept a back-up copy of the original Steve and put him in the Vanishing Place. Let’s put it this way. Hydra!Steve was Steve 2.0, meanwhile Steve 1.0 was stored, safely, on a portable drive as a back-up copy.

And also, the Steve we have now, the one stored in the Vanishing Place who came back and beat Hydra!Cap, has been referred to, in the comics and by Marvel, themselves, in interviews, as the real!Steve since Secret Empire. Moreover anyone familiar with Captain America history knows that the cosmic cube knew Steve better than Steve knew himself because during Mark Waid’s initial Cap run, the cube read Steve’s subconscious in order to create a reality to entice him to stay inside of it. The cube has Beyonder-like abilities, she doesn’t have an inaccurate memory.

Moreover, if you want to get technical, everyone in the 616 is a copy based on Reed Richard’s memory, when he used Molecule Man’s powers to rebuild the universe, so if you’re hyper focused on Cap in questioning his ‘realness’ you must be new to comics.

[jackolover]

I didn’t think Miles Morales replacing Peter Parker was that controversial, because it was in the Ultimate Universe. Do it in the 616 and that would be controversial.

Apart from the suggestions by the OP, going back before 2000, I can’t think of any that spring to mind, accept maybe the death of Gwen Stacy and the defamation of Hank Pym; the usual.