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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Yes-it has been looked down forever.

    They were suppose to be for children. However WHO stands in the way of the kid getting those books? ADULTS. Who want every book pandering to them at the expense of KIDS.

    Because kids are not the ones who take issue with diversity or goofy stories or the other stuff certain entitlement groups whine about.

    If Dc pandered to kids-we have a Flash book starring Barry & Wally-both well written.

    Books like Omega Men, Question, Vixen, Firestorm and others would exist and not worry about getting axed at issue 6.

    The version of HIC Tom King WANTED would still get made. Because Dc would balance both sides.

    Lion Forge is not having this issue. Nor IDW nor Boom nor Marvel-despite a certain group.

    The issue is you got to diversify who you use.

    If Cyborg can't cut it for adults-why can't we get a kid friendly series going with him? He'll have series adventures in Justice League and kid friendly in his book.

    I would totally love this idea you have of fitting the right character with the right appropriate age level books.

    I know most my favorites can slide both ways so personally it would work for me, and I don't have problems reading stuff that I feel is not in my age bracket,cause I follow characters, not just writers or storylines

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Funny thing is in the 30s and 40s comics sold more then books! (it's still that way in japan. Try going into a used bookstore there and not find used manga!) In the 60s dell comics Disney, four color and looney tunes comics were read by adults just as much as kids! In fact look at the 50s and 60s. West, war, scary (later "kids safe" scary after the comic code), romance comics for female readers, cartoon comics like tom and jerry and Disney, drama and heroes. They had books for everything. Not just heroes.


    Today kids would read big nate or splatoon manga over a hero comic. That's why we need kids to read comics. We need new readers. These 100 pagers are a great way to do it but not with a bloody body early in the book! You can still tell that tale without the gore.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Funny thing is in the 30s and 40s comics sold more then books! (it's still that way in japan. Try going into a used bookstore there and not find used manga!) In the 60s dell comics Disney, four color and looney tunes comics were read by adults just as much as kids! In fact look at the 50s and 60s. West, war, scary (later "kids safe" scary after the comic code), romance comics for female readers, cartoon comics like tom and jerry and Disney, drama and heroes. They had books for everything. Not just heroes.


    Today kids would read big nate or splatoon manga over a hero comic. That's why we need kids to read comics. We need new readers. These 100 pagers are a great way to do it but not with a bloody body early in the book! You can still tell that tale without the gore.

    What ways can comic get back that greatness again and do as well as Manga does then?

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    . . . Today kids would read big nate or splatoon manga over a hero comic. That's why we need kids to read comics. We need new readers. These 100 pagers are a great way to do it but not with a bloody body early in the book! You can still tell that tale without the gore.
    But much of even the reprint material included wasn't necessarily "kid-friendly" per se since it was from other DC comic books that came out during the New52 and some other 21st century eras. (More like generally aimed at a teen level.)

  5. #20
    Mighty Member Thor2014's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Is there any advertising or labeling that specifically states that it is meant for children?
    It's a comic book starring Superman. Most parents wouldn't even question it not being for kids. Superman's not Batman, parents probably assume Supes is safe for kids. Not agreeing with their train of thought but seeing it from their perspective.

    Also King's PTSD-type obsession is going overboard. Bruce, Harley, Booster and now this with Supes? He should probably broaden his scope a little.

  6. #21
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    perhaps they should have saved the lil leaguers storyline so that it could be told in the Walmart issues.

    Last edited by theoneandonly; 01-21-2019 at 09:51 PM.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    King has an editor. If the higher ups are fine with it then can't fault King.

  8. #23
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    Whilst I respect King has his fans, his work is clearly rather niche and needs to be treated as such. Throwing him everywhere is resulting in angry fans and dropping numbers (Batmans dropping below 100k which according to Snyder is the 'fire zone', HIC is dropping lower with each issue faster then events should).

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaastra View Post
    Funny thing is in the 30s and 40s comics sold more then books! (it's still that way in japan. Try going into a used bookstore there and not find used manga!) In the 60s dell comics Disney, four color and looney tunes comics were read by adults just as much as kids! In fact look at the 50s and 60s. West, war, scary (later "kids safe" scary after the comic code), romance comics for female readers, cartoon comics like tom and jerry and Disney, drama and heroes. They had books for everything. Not just heroes.


    Today kids would read big nate or splatoon manga over a hero comic. That's why we need kids to read comics. We need new readers. These 100 pagers are a great way to do it but not with a bloody body early in the book! You can still tell that tale without the gore.
    Ummmm...have you ever read any of the comics from before the comics code? Most of those were NOT for children, and even some of the one "for kids" would be considered for adults these days. I still have nightmares about one (unfortunately it had lost its cover by the time I got to read it, I think it was a Weird Tales). I read it at 6/7, found it again while going through storage in my 20s and it was even more terrifying as an adult. This is not just hyperbole, I had friends and classmates in various courses read it and it gave them nightmares too. (For the record, it was a giant hand that crawled out of the sewer and into bedrooms to crush children to death. Scary for children and parents.) Worse, I was old enough to be creeped out by the other stories which were all as gruesome and lavishly illustrated but focused on violence between adults.

    The point of people being upset about this is this: unlike Selina and Bruce, Lois and Clark is the majority's OTP. Entire generations grew up understanding that they had to get together, that any other relationship was wrong. People don't want Lois randomly killed off for shock value, just as most people had no interest in Clark with Diana. The only acceptable romantic rival for either Clark or Lois is Bruce to anyone who was alive in the 90s. To have her brutally murdered by the same writer who keeps pushing a personal OTP and killing off other beloved characters from 80s through the 00s is offensive and tasteless. Is it a big deal and actually controversial?

    Nope.

    All it will do is maybe push up sales for the issue followed by a drop in sales for all future issues, possibly resulting in the failure of the experiment. Not a big deal, and soon to be forgotten.

  10. #25
    Duly appointed enforcer of the Admin Accord Matt's Avatar
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    I am not impressed with the behaviour I've seen in this thread. I am not impressed by the personal remarks. I am not impressed by the snarky nonsense.
    I'm really not impressed that I've had to clean up this thread to the extent that I have had to.

    If I see any more behaviour like I've had to delete, I'll have little choice but to gift certain people with a holiday from the forums for a while.

    Please be better than what I saw here today.

    Thank you.
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  11. #26
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    No matter the merits of this particular comic (I think it in poor taste, contributing to the already huge problem of fridgings and violence against women on comics pages, and inappropriate for the market where it was placed), there is something deeply off with how DC's corporate communication is handled.

    We still haven't had any official response from DC regarding this comic, but CBR had a statement from Tom King on his response to the critique. I'm afraid that that response is just likely to bring even more critique onto King's head. And a contributing reason is that DC should have taken point in delivering and crafting such a response. Both to help the writer write a good response that doesn't fan the flames (and King is not a dispassionate bystander, but the very creator who is under the microscope here) and to at least attempt to shield the creator(s) from standing in the middle of an erupting flame war.

    We had the same issue not long ago with the Poison Ivy cover for Heroes in Crisis #7. King's tweet that the cover was cancelled and would be replaced was short, to the point, and addressed the concerns that had been raised, probably partly because King here was not the directly responsible creator, and could write and act dispassionately about it. But it should not have come from Tom King: it should have come from DC itself.

    Looking back a bit further, we have a similar furor over the infamous Joker cover for Batgirl #41. And DC's communication there is maybe even worse. Rafael Albuquerque's statement is well handled, but it was presented separately from DC's own statement, which was muddled and added confusion about the possibility that Albuquerque had been harassed, something which then both Albuquerque and Batgirl writer Cameron Stewart had to deny.

    Lately there has been a trend all over publishing to get the creators to take a larger role within marketing their works. But the final duty for marketing and communication still lies with the publisher, and here DC is failing badly, leaving their own creators out to dry or to pick up their pieces.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member Jody Garland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Ummmm...have you ever read any of the comics from before the comics code? Most of those were NOT for children, and even some of the one "for kids" would be considered for adults these days. I still have nightmares about one (unfortunately it had lost its cover by the time I got to read it, I think it was a Weird Tales). I read it at 6/7, found it again while going through storage in my 20s and it was even more terrifying as an adult. This is not just hyperbole, I had friends and classmates in various courses read it and it gave them nightmares too. (For the record, it was a giant hand that crawled out of the sewer and into bedrooms to crush children to death. Scary for children and parents.) Worse, I was old enough to be creeped out by the other stories which were all as gruesome and lavishly illustrated but focused on violence between adults.
    This can't be overstated. Until Seduction of the Innocent, comics were for adults and kids, some more so than others. Obviously adults read the 'kids' stuff, like the Carl Barks Duck comics, and kids read the stuff that was ostensibly more adult oriented, like the sleazier Timely Comics superheroes or the crime/horror comics.

    Reading through early superhero comics in particular show how they weren't really geared towards any particular age demographic. Superman was capable of surprisingly violent social stories that were followed up by goofy stuff like Superman working in a circus for charity.Timely's mystery men were borderline fascist- the shortlived Laughing Mask feature in Daring Mystery Comics stands out as one of the most uniquely ugly stories I've ever read from Marvel, in terms of theme. Even stuff like Fawcett's Captain Marvel stories went far darker than we would think of- Captain Marvel Jr.'s origin and subsequent book in particular seemed calculated to give older kids a Marvel book. That's not even getting into books like Crime Does Not Pay or the good girl superhero books like Fox's Phantom Lady or Harvey's Black Cat. Those are self evident proof there were adult readers of superheroes even in the Golden Age.

    Granted, it was a point of contention. Whitney Ellsworth tried to clean up the Superman and Batman features as early as 1941, to make them more kid friendly and less likely to garner protest. By that point, though, there was plenty of competition to push the envelope far further than Siegel & Schuster and Kane, Finger & Fox ever had.

  13. #28
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    When i was a kid i loved a bit of horror, gore, and cleavage in comics.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    No matter the merits of this particular comic (I think it in poor taste, contributing to the already huge problem of fridgings and violence against women on comics pages, and inappropriate for the market where it was placed), there is something deeply off with how DC's corporate communication is handled.

    We still haven't had any official response from DC regarding this comic, but CBR had a statement from Tom King on his response to the critique. I'm afraid that that response is just likely to bring even more critique onto King's head. And a contributing reason is that DC should have taken point in delivering and crafting such a response. Both to help the writer write a good response that doesn't fan the flames (and King is not a dispassionate bystander, but the very creator who is under the microscope here) and to at least attempt to shield the creator(s) from standing in the middle of an erupting flame war.

    We had the same issue not long ago with the Poison Ivy cover for Heroes in Crisis #7. King's tweet that the cover was cancelled and would be replaced was short, to the point, and addressed the concerns that had been raised, probably partly because King here was not the directly responsible creator, and could write and act dispassionately about it. But it should not have come from Tom King: it should have come from DC itself.

    Looking back a bit further, we have a similar furor over the infamous Joker cover for Batgirl #41. And DC's communication there is maybe even worse. Rafael Albuquerque's statement is well handled, but it was presented separately from DC's own statement, which was muddled and added confusion about the possibility that Albuquerque had been harassed, something which then both Albuquerque and Batgirl writer Cameron Stewart had to deny.

    Lately there has been a trend all over publishing to get the creators to take a larger role within marketing their works. But the final duty for marketing and communication still lies with the publisher, and here DC is failing badly, leaving their own creators out to dry or to pick up their pieces.
    Remember this is the same DC that can't spin Batmans Dick being in the media into more sales for themselves and actively neuter their adult line. DCs media savvy is non existent.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    Ummmm...have you ever read any of the comics from before the comics code? Most of those were NOT for children, and even some of the one "for kids" would be considered for adults these days.

    That what I was saying about comics were read by adults as much as kids then. They were not seen as "kids books" then. Everyone read them.

    Also you don't have to make it barney to make it a kids safe comic. Look at jeff smiths bone. Cute cartoon stars but also real stakes and even a death but it was done in a family way with no gore. Carl barks and rosa scrooge book are some of the greatest comics ever made and were made with adults in mind but are great for kids also.

    Heck dc and marvel had some adult themes in it's 70s comics(look at some of the batman stories of the 70s) but they didn't need a bloody face to do it and kids could still enjoy it. Tons of deaths in some of those batman comics but didn't need a bloody face to do it. You don't need to preschool a comic to make it ok for kids just a great stories both adults and kids can enjoy without turning it to r rated sin city.

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