More Tom King trouble for DC, its readers and the writer himself ?!?

[Jokerz79]

Comics definitely now are marketed to Adults and Kids and I'd put more emphasis on the former than the latter. But if these are also for adults than I'm not going to be naive like a child when looking at this either this book wasn't a floppy in a comic book story if it was I'd have no issue. No it was at Walmart and being targeted for kids the editor never should allowed it and if the intentions for this line is for all new readers and not just kids than DC needs to communicate that better to Walmart.

[Restingvoice]

Even when old DC comics are for adults, there was no violence as graphic as today. Batman shot, strangle, and threw people into a vat of acid but it was a quick one panel of a cartoony art style. When Joker used his gas to make people died of a scary face it still looks cartoony in a really small panel. Even the 70s, while creepier than the 40s, is not as gorey as today.

Compare that to The Man Who Laughs by Doug Mahnke where he draws close-ups of rotting corpses and horrifying visage of Joker's victim... or to The Killing joke torture scene... or to the stitched and hanging corpses in Death of The Family by Capullo, Barrows, and Gleason.

The topic has always had adult elements but how scenes are drawn matter because that's what people first see.

They should think about this if only for the marketing. It's people unfamiliar with comics who buy at Walmart, not hardcore readers who have their own LCS and already know the level of graphic DC has.

[Güicho]

Are we really pretending this is new?

[Jokerz79]

Are we really pretending this is new?

Are we pretending neither got backlash?

[mathew101281]

I feel their is a persistent group within DC editorial and marketing divisions, that sees DC as the edgier alternative to Marvel. You can see it across the brand from the video games to the movies(though that might be changing) to even the cartoons. When it works it’s okay (character specific) but when it doesn’t work it really doesn’t work. King does what he does because editorial allows it.

[Inversed]

Honestly, I don't think there's a problem with the story itself, its a good idea and it makes sense this is something the character would think about and can be something pretty powerful to reflect upon.

I think the problem is the timing. King has been doing alot of exploitation recently, so it makes it feel like that's all he can do right now, and if it is as bloody and gory as the descriptions imply, then it was a bad idea to have this included in a Walmart book of all things, you probably could get the same emotional response without being as graphic. I feel like if this story came from a regular issue, and didn't come right off the heels of King's other recent works, it wouldn't be considered as troublesome.

[Gaastra]

Are we really pretending this is new?

And the gl one had so much backlash it created the saying "fridged" and dc has been fighting that image even today!

[David Walton]

Whilst I respect King has his fans, his work is clearly rather niche and needs to be treated as such.

But what one reader sees as 'niche' another will see as a personal artistic vision. Creators tend to return to the themes that mean the most to them.

Tom King writes the kinds of things that only Tom King can write (or at least, in the manner that only Tom King can write them). If you didn't put his name on the book, there's still a good chance readers would recognize the style as his.

This naturally generates strong reactions, good and bad, but even if that artistic vision isn't to one's personal tastes there's no denying King's talent and craftsmanship.

Just to be clear, this is a separate discussion from how DC markets its books and whether the content fits the perceived target audience. But most kids enjoy reading the kinds of things that would make their parents worry a bit; when I was a kid, I was reading stories like "Kraven's Last Hunt" and "Born Again." I'm thankful I had the opportunity to do so. Maybe some kid will pick this up and it will be the comic that made them think of Superman and Lois Lane as much more complex characters than they previously imagined. (I haven't read the story so I can't comment on it beyond a hypothetical scenario.)

[iron chimp]

Its a bit sneaky that walmart comics dont have the teen + age guide that their other comics have

[babybats]

The easy solution to this is to have a clear ratings system so parents aren't surprised by what's in the comics they're buying. Have labels warning for explicit violence, or sexual content, etc. like they have for television and games.

[Güicho]

Are we really pretending this is new?

Are we pretending neither got backlash?

No, yet Bronze age "Relevance" gave way to banal, shallow, cynical glorification of violence, building to 90's Dark-Age/Tinfoil-Age, Shock & Awe "Death-Events" are what sold the most, and drove the industry, creating the Speculator market boon: People not buying for characters, but for supposed "key-issues" meaning anything with shocking crippling, character heal-turns, Shock & Awe death events, they bought multiple of copies of telling the industry it's what you wanted.
Death of Todd (complete with torture, a gruesome 1-(1900 #money generating number, so the "fans" could participate, and vote in the Death),.... crippling Batgirl, .... to Kyle Rayner's girlfriend chopped up and and put in a fridge to give him angst, it became so mundane it got it's name.

Feigning outrage now like it's something "new" to this gen. seems hypocritical. LOL.
Walmart has just exposed to more people, what was already long ago, common place in comics.
This isn't new.

[jetengine]

The easy solution to this is to have a clear ratings system so parents aren't surprised by what's in the comics they're buying. Have labels warning for explicit violence, or sexual content, etc. like they have for television and games.

That would solve all the Damned bullshit since you can literally sit back and go 'Its rated for adults, why are you whining ?"

[Ilan Preskovsky]

I feel their is a persistent group within DC editorial and marketing divisions, that sees DC as the edgier alternative to Marvel. You can see it across the brand from the video games to the movies(though that might be changing) to even the cartoons. When it works it’s okay (character specific) but when it doesn’t work it really doesn’t work. King does what he does because editorial allows it.

Agreed. And it's largely a terrible look for them. Some characters like Batman, Green Arrow or the mystical heroes work well in edgier tales but most of DC's roster work best when the tone is literally the opposite of "edgy" or "adult".

But what one reader sees as 'niche' another will see as a personal artistic vision. Creators tend to return to the themes that mean the most to them.

Tom King writes the kinds of things that only Tom King can write (or at least, in the manner that only Tom King can write them). If you didn't put his name on the book, there's still a good chance readers would recognize the style as his.

This naturally generates strong reactions, good and bad, but even if that artistic vision isn't to one's personal tastes there's no denying King's talent and craftsmanship.

Just to be clear, this is a separate discussion from how DC markets its books and whether the content fits the perceived target audience. But most kids enjoy reading the kinds of things that would make their parents worry a bit; when I was a kid, I was reading stories like "Kraven's Last Hunt" and "Born Again." I'm thankful I had the opportunity to do so. Maybe some kid will pick this up and it will be the comic that made them think of Superman and Lois Lane as much more complex characters than they previously imagined. (I haven't read the story so I can't comment on it beyond a hypothetical scenario.)

Agreed. He has a very real auteurial vision for his comics but it's also why I do think that he works better when writing more contained comics. I am, as I said before, a hge Tom King fan but he's definitely not the right sort of writer for an "event" sort of comic. Leave him to play in hos own corner - and that corner can include anything from Batman and Superman to the Omega Men and Mister Miracle but should be self-contained - and he does great work that never feels remotely like some sort of "house style".

Its a bit sneaky that walmart comics dont have the teen + age guide that their other comics have

The easy solution to this is to have a clear ratings system so parents aren't surprised by what's in the comics they're buying. Have labels warning for explicit violence, or sexual content, etc. like they have for television and games.

I agree that this should be the case for most of their comics, as I said before, but the comics they sell in Walmart, which are specifically designed to appeal to as many new young readers as possible, should be appropriate for children. I don't think the Walmart comics are as successful a "gateway drug" for adults as are the more mature-audience graphic novels that are sold at mainstream bookstores - many of which, not so incidentally, coming from DC's Vertigo line.

That would solve all the Damned bullshit since you can literally sit back and go 'Its rated for adults, why are you whining ?"

But it hasn't stopped the whining or the bullshit. Damned was clearly marked as a "mature readers" book (though maybe the rating should be more prominent and may as well include the NSVL symbols that movies and games use) but it caused a huge furor that directly caused DC to stamp down on the adult content in even their more adult comics. For a medium that has struggled for so long to be taken seriously, DC and Marvel do need to finally learn that they can cater to wildly different audiences, with content that is appropriate to each age group, and don't have to settle on the maximal-violence, minimal-sex&nudity&profanity paradigm that theoretically keeps their stuff in the T/T+ range but, at its worst, makes sure that they appeal to neither adults nor kids by producing content that is too juvenile for the former and too graphic for the latter.

[Scott Taylor]

Ok I can see the controversy, but its exactly this kind of edgy comic that I could convince my parents to buy for me that got me into comics in the first place.

[jetengine]

"For Mature readers" can mean anything. Just make a clear cut rating system and save everyone the headache. Most modern comics run between Pg-12A.