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  1. #691
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post


    Im kinda torn. I agree that the light blue does go with the color scheme better, and the silver/black/blue palette isn't one we see *too* often. Far less than red/blue/any third color, anyway. But the red really does help his visual pop. And this is just me but the combination of red and blue lights can sorta-kinda evoke a bit of a cop vibe, and I've kinda liked the idea of Vic having federal backing of some kind ever since Flashpoint. Actually, in a way he already does doesn't he? STAR is a federally funded program (I think? Am I wrong there?) and although Vic is there for his own maintenance, he also basically works for them too, and that would require some kind of contract or agreement. Plus Vic doesn't have a day job, so his money had to come from somewhere.
    STAR labs are independently funded from what I am reading. But it would make sense that they have some federally funded projects being an independent lab.

    I like the Flashpoint set up for Cyborg I think he works really well as a government agent or federal back hero. It is a really good set up for a solo hero
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 07-13-2019 at 04:58 PM.

  2. #692
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Its never cool to play the race card unless it's actually, truly deserved. That's not something you just toss around.

    Anyway, Ive seen a few people complain about the New God stuff, but that's been a part of Vic since 2011. It's been used and highlighted on a fairly regular basis ever since, and I feel like its natural that fans would want to see this new avenue opened up and explored more than DC has done. I for one consider it a great addition, it opens up a lot of doors. It's not about power levels or ignoring who Vic is as a character, it's just a new facet to add to what's already there. Much as the comments about taking some of the TTGO! personality traits largely seem to be people wanting to see more of what is already there; Vic has a sense of humor but it's often limited to his interactions with Beast Boy. Nothing wrong with wanting to see Vic smile more often. We're fans, we want to see the guy happy.
    I get what your saying. And I have never said that Cyborg shouldn't be happy or have some advancement of his powers.

    It's the concepts of him eliminating the things that actually make him a character real readers will purchase, that I take issue with. Not only that the whole concept of the "Tech God" potentially flies in the face of who Cyborg is. That step would erase the Man aspect of him and would be something Cyborg as a character would reject/fight.

    Not only that but even with todays technology a "Tech God" would be vastly OP. The true implications of that means that Cyborg could end most fights without leaving the Watch Tower. Once it's done once there is no back tracking it and off Cyborg goes to limbo for a spell before he is depowered for a few years and then thrown back in the mix.

    What comes then? "Fans" complaining about how the creative teams can't handle powerful X characters and so on. We all have seen that movie playout before on this very forum. Rather skip it.

    Oh, I agree with you. I mean, if you like a character on a conceptual level but not what's actually printed, that's fine (I feel that way about Peter Parker, actually; love the idea of him, but the comics have never grabbed me). But recognize that you like the idea, not the actual character as he/she exists, yknow? But that's a blurred line too; there's degrees to how much one knows and how that influences their views, and arguing about that is a slippery slope. How much do you have to know about Vic's character to be able to suggest ways to develop him? Which parts/stories/moments are the most important? Just feels like a direction in the discussion that isn't going to serve anyone, yknow?
    Oh, I agree with you here. The issue comes in to play when the atmosphere in the thread is mostly negative and is not actually discussing the character but said non-existent idea's.

    "DC writers don't want X because of X" or "Cyborg is so boring and should be X" or "Cyborg should be able to do X even if people will be bothered by X"

    That is the stuff that gets others to be like " Well this doesn't fit and here's why." With most of the time being whatever doesn't fit based on the actual characters history, personality or whatever else.

    You could say just ignore those post then but if you look through the thread it takes up a very large chunk of so it becomes unavoidable.
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  3. #693
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    STAR labs are independently funded from what I am reading. But it would make sense that they have some federally funded projects being an independent lab.

    I like the Flashpoint set up for Cyborg I think he works really well as a government agent or federal back hero. It is a really good set up for a solo hero
    Considering how often STAR ends up with dangerous artifacts and devices that're supposed to be kept on ice, they've *gotta* have some federal funding of some kind, I would think. Man, it must suck being a grant writer for STAR Labs. They do a lot of good work, but given the amount of experiments that've gone wrong I wouldn't want to be the guy responsible for asking for money.

    I agree (obviously) about the Flashpoint status quo. It seemed such a.....obvious......thing once I saw it. Given who Vic's dad is and where Vic's powers came from it would make a lot of sense for him to work with the government on some level. Flashpoint made me think of Invincible (the Image comic), back when Mark was basically paid to be a superhero and the pentagon would sometimes let him know where the trouble was.
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  4. #694
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I get what your saying. And I have never said that Cyborg shouldn't be happy or have some advancement of his powers.

    It's the concepts of him eliminating the things that actually make him a character real readers will purchase, that I take issue with. Not only that the whole concept of the "Tech God" potentially flies in the face of who Cyborg is. That step would erase the Man aspect of him and would be something Cyborg as a character would reject/fight.

    Not only that but even with todays technology a "Tech God" would be vastly OP. The true implications of that means that Cyborg could end most fights without leaving the Watch Tower. Once it's done once there is no back tracking it and off Cyborg goes to limbo for a spell before he is depowered for a few years and then thrown back in the mix.

    What comes then? "Fans" complaining about how the creative teams can't handle powerful X characters and so on. We all have seen that movie playout before on this very forum. Rather skip it.



    Oh, I agree with you here. The issue comes in to play when the atmosphere in the thread is mostly negative and is not actually discussing the character but said non-existent idea's.

    "DC writers don't want X because of X" or "Cyborg is so boring and should be X" or "Cyborg should be able to do X even if people will be bothered by X"

    That is the stuff that gets others to be like " Well this doesn't fit and here's why." With most of the time being whatever doesn't fit based on the actual characters history, personality or whatever else.

    You could say just ignore those post then but if you look through the thread it takes up a very large chunk of so it becomes unavoidable.
    Doesn't stop Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Captain Marvel (DC), Ironman, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel (Marvel), etc from being used and having long running solos.

    I just noticed that Cyborg is in the Darkhorse crossover Black Hammer/Justice League. So currently Cyborg is in two books right now, that and JLO. Which begs this question. When JLO is over, will Vic be shelved since he currently isn't on the main JL book and will any progress made with him in JLO ultimately be reset again like with Walker/Reiss Cyborg, Semper Cyborg, Priest Leader of the Justice League Cyborg 1,000,000?

  5. #695
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Considering how often STAR ends up with dangerous artifacts and devices that're supposed to be kept on ice, they've *gotta* have some federal funding of some kind, I would think. Man, it must suck being a grant writer for STAR Labs. They do a lot of good work, but given the amount of experiments that've gone wrong I wouldn't want to be the guy responsible for asking for money.
    That's one of the areas I feel would indicate the comics drifting from the at-least-at-one-time-premise of STAR Labs and making it a more generic company.

    In the early Post-COIE era, the independence from government was kind of a point. Don't know how long it lasted, though.
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  6. #696
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmonk View Post
    Doesn't stop Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Captain Marvel (DC), Ironman, Thor, Hulk, Captain Marvel (Marvel), etc from being used and having long running solos.

    I just noticed that Cyborg is in the Darkhorse crossover Black Hammer/Justice League. So currently Cyborg is in two books right now, that and JLO. Which begs this question. When JLO is over, will Vic be shelved since he currently isn't on the main JL book and will any progress made with him in JLO ultimately be reset again like with Walker/Reiss Cyborg, Semper Cyborg, Priest Leader of the Justice League Cyborg 1,000,000?
    Your pointing out powerful characters but it's not the same really.

    Cyborg in his current form can already access the internet and computer networks remotely. Push that into "Tech God" it now means that he can feasibly find anyone on earth with satellites or surveillance systems in a single panel. Ergo no other hero should ever have to look/hunt down anyone because Cyborg would then be able to just text every hero where their villain is.

    To add further "Tech God " would also mean that he has control of over long range weapon systems developed by multiple government powers. Satellite detects alien invasion Cyborg is warned he send nukes into space and the threat is over. Or even on earth monster attacks have or some other defense take it out before it gets going.

    We have algorithms now that predict behavior and can track where we are going, that alone with Cyborg's current abilities make's him stupid powerful and scary. Turn the notch a little further and he can shut things down before they even start.

    A "Tech God" Cyborg is void of plot, conflict, or struggle and would lead to his eventual unusability in the confines of an on-going story .
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  7. #697
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I get what your saying.

    That is the stuff that gets others to be like " Well this doesn't fit and here's why." With most of the time being whatever doesn't fit based on the actual characters history, personality or whatever else.

    You could say just ignore those post then but if you look through the thread it takes up a very large chunk of so it becomes unavoidable.
    (cropped the quote to save space).

    Eh, I try to keep in mind that Vic's in a unusual (but not unique) situation. He's been around for decades, and a lot of people know *of* him but really dont *know* him. From the 80's Super Friends cartoon (with him and Firestorm) to the Titans cartoons, and now the JL film, Doom Patrol, Young Justice (cartoon).....dude's been around the block. But always as part of an ensemble, not as a solo act. So while he's gotten his spotlight moments, his development and mythos haven't been on display the same as you'd see for a big solo star. But now he's League, and we expect him to hold his own with those huge A-list names as both a solo IP and part of the JLA. I think there's a lot of people who always liked Vic when he showed up as part of a team, but never really gave him a ton of thought as an individual player, and now they're trying to figure out how he works in this new role with its bigger responsibilities and how you get him to that new level. (yes the NTT were a big damn team and a big deal back in the day but we're talking perception and we all forget stuff; to them this is the first time Vic's been with the A-list).

    You see a lot of the same thing in Martian Manhunter threads; people who like J'onn when they see him on the League, but when it comes to the deeper workings of the character they're not nearly as well informed, and a lot of the stuff you see posted appears to be filtered through the lens of J'onn's position in the League. I mean, people suggest J'onn drop the super strength and pick up telekinesis (ala the YJ show). It's a cool idea that I agree with, but a lot of people don't come to that idea from J'onn's character, but how to make J'onn's character work better within the context of his team.
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  8. #698
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    Your pointing out powerful characters but it's not the same really.

    Cyborg in his current form can already access the internet and computer networks remotely. Push that into "Tech God" it now means that he can feasibly find anyone on earth with satellites or surveillance systems in a single panel. Ergo no other hero should ever have to look/hunt down anyone because Cyborg would then be able to just text every hero where their villain is.

    To add further "Tech God " would also mean that he has control of over long range weapon systems developed by multiple government powers. Satellite detects alien invasion Cyborg is warned he send nukes into space and the threat is over. Or even on earth monster attacks have or some other defense take it out before it gets going.

    We have algorithms now that predict behavior and can track where we are going, that alone with Cyborg's current abilities make's him stupid powerful and scary. Turn the notch a little further and he can shut things down before they even start.

    A "Tech God" Cyborg is void of plot, conflict, or struggle and would lead to his eventual unusability in the confines of an on-going story .
    I swear I'm not picking on you man, you just have solid posts I want to respond to. I enjoyed your contributions to the Nova thread too, so I promise this is all in the spirit of good discussion and Im not just singling you out.

    But everything you mention here, Oracle could do twenty years ago, and Superman can do now. Hell, Batman can do all this now. As with any character of any power level, you just use equal threats. When Superman became much stronger than a locomotive, he stopped fighting gangsters and started fighting other aliens. Vic's upgrades just mean he can fight a higher caliber of foe.

    I tell you what, I could write a script that would tackle every concern you have. I don't promise that it'd be any good, but it'd answer every worry. And (writing ability aside) I could show that it can be done without sacrificing Vic's character. Would that assuage your concerns? And really, as with all things, it just comes down to the execution. A Cyborg exploring his new limits (or lack thereof) could be awful and boring in the wrong hands, or it could be amazing and fun and wild in the right ones. A more powerful Cyborg does mean that you need a slightly higher quality of writer to handle things properly (a problem Superman has had for many years) and that is indeed a limitation and it does increase the odds of a writer not getting it right, but the comic shelves are full of characters who can toss planets around who have all been in publication for decades. If they can do it, so can Vic.
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  9. #699
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    In a universe with Superman, Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman,Green Lantern and Flash I never worry about if a Superhero is OP, As long as they are under Superman (and nobody gets to be above Superman) They are fine. Let's be clear it is not a matter of DC making Cyborg as we like to say it in this thread "Tech God". Cyborg is already a "Tech God" just for fun a list of Cyborg abilities


    Cybernetic Enhancement: Cyborg possesses cybernetic enhancements that provide superhuman strength, endurance and durability

    Superhuman Sensory Array: Due cybernetic enhancements Stone's five senses were increased to superhuman levels.

    Sound amplifier/white noise cannon

    Flight

    Technopathy-the ability to mentally control technological constructs, computers, robots, hardware and other devices that can be termed as "technology"

    Shape-Shifting: He can reshape parts of his body into various weapons and technological equipment. His arsenal includes a finger laser attachment, telescopic eyepiece, sonic disruptor, electric shockers, grappling hooks, winches and electromagnetic pulse cannons

    Teleportion-Via Boom Tubes

    Technorganic Restoration: Cyborg showcases self-regenerative capabilities as not only are his technological parts able to reintegrate after destruction but recently, his damaged flesh has also been shown regenerating beneath and around his cybernetic systems

    Genius Level Intellect: In addition to his mechanical enhancements, Stone possesses an "exceptionally gifted" level of intelligence; his IQ has been measured at 170

    That is without mention the esoteric silly stuff from the mother/father box. The one annoying thing about this topic is the myth of Cyborg isn't something and we are creating some imaginary narrative to build up him as fans. People hear Cyborg "should be" and assume people are saying he isn't that and we are making up something he isn't. For example

    1. Cyborg should look more human. Not made up Cyborg has the ability to make himself look, normal human, he has done so in solo.

    2. Cyborg should be treated like a top tier hero. Not made up we got a glimpse Flashpoint, We got a glimpse in Justice League when he was made the chairman

    3. Cyborg should be this amazing technologically powerful hero. Not made up you can see the list of his abilities above

    4. Cyborg should show more of his skin. Most fans like the Ivan Reis look for what I have seen, There is also Young Justice Cyborg look which I think people will be okay with.

    5. Cyborg should be happier personality. Not made up one of the more popular incarnations is from teen titan cartoon

    Cyborg for the most part really close to the ideal version that many of us are asking for in the thread. The annoying "you guys are making up the perfect Cyborg that doesn't exist" is BS. The John Semper Jr version with some slight tweaks would be perfectly fine. Seeing every fan express what they want for Cyborg including all the crazy ideas is not the reality of what people would take and be happy with it. The myth of people don't like Cyborg and just want to change him is bs. We don't have an editor on us in a thread we don't have to limit ideas, of course, it is going to sound crazy and over the top. Put an idea through first and second drafts and editors and corporate and of course, the idea will be changed and more reasonable. It is weird we have to almost apologize for being fanboys when even in Superman threads they are suggestions that make him more powerful.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 07-13-2019 at 07:13 PM.

  10. #700
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    (cropped the quote to save space).

    Eh, I try to keep in mind that Vic's in a unusual (but not unique) situation. He's been around for decades, and a lot of people know *of* him but really dont *know* him. From the 80's Super Friends cartoon (with him and Firestorm) to the Titans cartoons, and now the JL film, Doom Patrol, Young Justice (cartoon).....dude's been around the block. But always as part of an ensemble, not as a solo act. So while he's gotten his spotlight moments, his development and mythos haven't been on display the same as you'd see for a big solo star. But now he's League, and we expect him to hold his own with those huge A-list names as both a solo IP and part of the JLA. I think there's a lot of people who always liked Vic when he showed up as part of a team, but never really gave him a ton of thought as an individual player, and now they're trying to figure out how he works in this new role with its bigger responsibilities and how you get him to that new level. (yes the NTT were a big damn team and a big deal back in the day but we're talking perception and we all forget stuff; to them this is the first time Vic's been with the A-list).

    You see a lot of the same thing in Martian Manhunter threads; people who like J'onn when they see him on the League, but when it comes to the deeper workings of the character they're not nearly as well informed, and a lot of the stuff you see posted appears to be filtered through the lens of J'onn's position in the League. I mean, people suggest J'onn drop the super strength and pick up telekinesis (ala the YJ show). It's a cool idea that I agree with, but a lot of people don't come to that idea from J'onn's character, but how to make J'onn's character work better within the context of his team.
    I understand what they and what you are saying now. None of which change's the fact though. Do you honestly believe I , Vamp, or anyone else gets any enjoyment telling asking other poster WTF they are talking about? And then having to go in great detail to explain a character to those people knowing full well they aren't going to listen because it wont fit the Mary Sue they made in their minds? (But hoping they take something from what you said)

    So yeah I hear you but the facts do not change. The history does not change. And what has worked rarely ever changed. Current Cyborg personality is interchangeable. The character lacks a true voice. We see glimpses of the real him here and there but that is it. If someone bases their version of Cyborg almost totally on the 52 onward Cyborg, chances are they are going to be greatly confused about the character and it's mostly because that version is barely is one.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I swear I'm not picking on you man, you just have solid posts I want to respond to. I enjoyed your contributions to the Nova thread too, so I promise this is all in the spirit of good discussion and Im not just singling you out.

    But everything you mention here, Oracle could do twenty years ago, and Superman can do now. Hell, Batman can do all this now. As with any character of any power level, you just use equal threats. When Superman became much stronger than a locomotive, he stopped fighting gangsters and started fighting other aliens. Vic's upgrades just mean he can fight a higher caliber of foe.
    I respectfully disagree. The levels in which we are talking are vastly different.


    I tell you what, I could write a script that would tackle every concern you have. I don't promise that it'd be any good, but it'd answer every worry. And (writing ability aside) I could show that it can be done without sacrificing Vic's character. Would that assuage your concerns? And really, as with all things, it just comes down to the execution. A Cyborg exploring his new limits (or lack thereof) could be awful and boring in the wrong hands, or it could be amazing and fun and wild in the right ones. A more powerful Cyborg does mean that you need a slightly higher quality of writer to handle things properly (a problem Superman has had for many years) and that is indeed a limitation and it does increase the odds of a writer not getting it right, but the comic shelves are full of characters who can toss planets around who have all been in publication for decades. If they can do it, so can Vic.
    Cyborg's power offers a different niche than any member of the JL. Most of the "Upgrades" in suggested in this thread just makes him another ridiculous OP character. The perpetual forced ignoring of characters abilities in the JL is one of the reason the title constantly losses it's footing in terms of popularity and sales.

    I could and would go into further detail but I'm trying not to dominate the conversation. But I will say this... DC characters run into the same set of problems regardless of the generation or time they are in. Current DC not only has those problems but they have an added issue of severally lacking driven cohesive story telling.(Not all titles but a large chunk of them) Cyborg is a major example of that as well as his handling and the various disappearing abilities are an example of what I am saying. Between the Inspector Gadget version and Boxy the robot version the current characters has little defined aspect about him in terms of what he can or can't not do. This , as well as other aspects, will forever keep the character in a place where people will see him and not be able to character on a larger scale. That isn't my opinion, that is provable by looking at various characters in comics and out. The American phrase "keep it simple stupid" in terms of powers across the board works better for Superhero characters more often then not. The more complex you get the more people loose interest.

    Not even going to get into how Cyborg's original abilities played off his personality better and made him a more complete character. (again not saying his power should stay the same, just saying the Tech God as being described in this thread will and has done little for him.)

    Edit:

    Also thank you for the compliment. I do appreciate it.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 07-13-2019 at 07:31 PM.
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  11. #701
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    I just want to see Vic in a red tracksuit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dswynne View Post
    I just want to see Vic in a red tracksuit.
    Now we're talking! Give that man some clothes. Either that or make it clear whether or not he's naked. We currently have no idea if he still has flesh or if everything we see is him bare. It's pretty ambiguous in JLO. Let's get some answers.

  13. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by dswynne View Post
    I just want to see Vic in a red tracksuit.
    I second that. I just want to see my boy wearing clothes; and not just when he's hiding his cybernetics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I swear I'm not picking on you man, you just have solid posts I want to respond to. I enjoyed your contributions to the Nova thread too, so I promise this is all in the spirit of good discussion and Im not just singling you out.

    But everything you mention here, Oracle could do twenty years ago, and Superman can do now. Hell, Batman can do all this now. As with any character of any power level, you just use equal threats. When Superman became much stronger than a locomotive, he stopped fighting gangsters and started fighting other aliens. Vic's upgrades just mean he can fight a higher caliber of foe.

    I tell you what, I could write a script that would tackle every concern you have. I don't promise that it'd be any good, but it'd answer every worry. And (writing ability aside) I could show that it can be done without sacrificing Vic's character. Would that assuage your concerns? And really, as with all things, it just comes down to the execution. A Cyborg exploring his new limits (or lack thereof) could be awful and boring in the wrong hands, or it could be amazing and fun and wild in the right ones. A more powerful Cyborg does mean that you need a slightly higher quality of writer to handle things properly (a problem Superman has had for many years) and that is indeed a limitation and it does increase the odds of a writer not getting it right, but the comic shelves are full of characters who can toss planets around who have all been in publication for decades. If they can do it, so can Vic.
    Cyborg got a power upgrade in Snyder's Dark Knight's Metal. Spoilers...





    In No Justice #4 Cyborg used these new upgrades which he called the Multiverse Engine to access and understand the Brainiac Files that Amanda Waller gave him. He was very much in a leadership position. He directed the other heroes to get seeds from the Tree of Wisdom. Cyborg then used his cybernetics to modify the seeds so that they can contain energies such as wonder, mystery and entropy. Green Lantern then launched the seeds into one of the Omega Titans which caused his brothers to attack and consume him. This lead to the destruction of the Source Wall.

  15. #705
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dswynne View Post
    I just want to see Vic in a red tracksuit.
    I am definitely warming up to the idea of Vic wearing some regular clothes. Sejic had some interesting things to say about that when JLO was announced and he's got a good point. Probably not a track suit though; I'm thinking t-shirts so you can see more of his arms (which should mean more skin, like back in the day; I hate that modern Vic is completely covered except for half his face, he looks like a robot and not a cyborg).

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I understand what they and what you are saying now. None of which change's the fact though. Do you honestly believe I , Vamp, or anyone else gets any enjoyment telling asking other poster WTF they are talking about? And then having to go in great detail to explain a character to those people knowing full well they aren't going to listen because it wont fit the Mary Sue they made in their minds? (But hoping they take something from what you said)
    No, I get what you're saying, and of course its never fun to argue about basic character traits/themes with people who don't have as deep an understanding of a character (Im a hardcore Superman fan, trust me I get it!). I'm just saying, looking at Vic through the lens of his role on a team is.....its kinda the default, since he's never been a solo act, so you gotta expect that to play a role in how people view the character. Just like how almost no one ever thinks of J'onn as *just* his character but also his role with the League.

    Honestly, Vamp would probably have people listen more closely if his/her sig didn't call Vic a weak ass character.

    So yeah I hear you but the facts do not change. The history does not change. And what has worked rarely ever changed. Current Cyborg personality is interchangeable. The character lacks a true voice. We see glimpses of the real him here and there but that is it. If someone bases their version of Cyborg almost totally on the 52 onward Cyborg, chances are they are going to be greatly confused about the character and it's mostly because that version is barely is one.
    Honestly man I think Vic hasn't had more than glimpses of his actual character since before Wolfman left the Titans. Maybe Priest did it right I dont know, I wasn't read JL then (wanted to, but decided to trade wait).

    There's also the fact that Vic's character was built to be in the Titans ensemble, not as a solo/leading man. To truly function as a solo act, some of Vic's personality traits and core themes would need to be expanded upon, tweaked, and some blanks need to be filled in; stuff that a ensemble player doesn't have to worry about but a solo star has to have in order to appear fully developed. So some of the changes suggested here, it's not necessarily about changing who Vic is, it's about expanding who Vic is so he has what it takes to successfully carry a solo.

    I respectfully disagree. The levels in which we are talking are vastly different.
    And its cool that we disagree. Im not trying to change minds, I'm just explaining my opinion, enjoying the sharing of ideas and viewpoints.

    Cyborg's power offers a different niche than any member of the JL. Most of the "Upgrades" in suggested in this thread just makes him another ridiculous OP character. The perpetual forced ignoring of characters abilities in the JL is one of the reason the title constantly losses it's footing in terms of popularity and sales.
    To be fair, those upgrades already happened. What people are asking for now is that DC actually make the most of it. The idea of giving Vic New Gods tech never crossed my mind until Johns did it and I was very much against it at first, but have come to see how it could contribute and inform everything that Wolfman established. The problem with this is that DC hasn't actually done that. The Fourth World tech and all these new upgrades (in standing, role, and tech) *could* be good for the character, but *haven't* been yet, so we can't point to the comics and say "See, it works!" We have to point to the comics and say "See, if you took this and did it this way instead, it would work!"

    I could and would go into further detail but I'm trying not to dominate the conversation. But I will say this... DC characters run into the same set of problems regardless of the generation or time they are in.
    Yeah, Im not trying to rule this thread either. You're totally right about DC's problems, but those aren't Vic specific (as you point out) and there's nothing we can do about that. But in conversations like this, we all tend to ignore the fact that DC can't keep their sh*t straight. You're right that the problems DC has will prevent Vic from ever getting anywhere (just as they prevent other characters from stepping up) but where's the fun in saying "Vic could be X, Y, or Z.....but it wont happen until better management takes over."? That's just depressing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wakeneuron View Post
    Cyborg got a power upgrade in Snyder's Dark Knight's Metal.
    Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Just an example of how OP Vic can work just fine when someone gives a damn.
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