BOOYAH!! Cyborg Appreciation Thread '19

[DragonsChi]

But that's not something to build upon either.

He wanted to be an athlete, couldn't be because he became a super-hero against his will.

Great. And ?

What stories can you build out of this ? Not much. If his whole purpose is "I wanted to be an American football star" and he just became a hero by accident and never change from there... well, I'm sorry, but I won't give a **** for such a character, because he would be aimless, as deep as a flattened piece of paper and unable to move in any direction. Ergo, what's been plaguing Cyborg ever since the 80's ended and the luster he had as a New Teen Titan faded away.

If it's truly what DC wants for the character, then the best thing they could do to it is to retire him. Because he would have no story nor character potential, if he always has to be that, the former athlete whose dream has been destroyed. And I don't want Vic to go into limbo, but frankly, if he has to be just that, it would be an act of mercy. At least then, DC could perhaps try to have an actually more deep and interesting PoC (by virtue of not being tied to a foundation as rotten as Cyborg the former Jock is) put to prominence.

Just my opinion...but by your comments I don't think you understand a few things. (and others)

1) What it is truly like to be disabled.

2) Having your dreams ripped from you and the physical, emotional, and mental impact that can have on someone.

3) What true story development is. The stuff that really makes you invested in a character on-going.

4) The consequences of essentially erasing core concepts to a character on a whim.


By understanding these aspects, along with story progression and character development, you will gain a better understand of what can be done with Cyborg. Your whole framework is based on what YOU would want and HOW you would deal with it. Not Cyborg. YOUR dream is to be a superhero with superpowers. YOUR idea of a good trade off for your working limbs and face is tech powers.

CYBORG wanted something else for his life. HE wanted to play a sport that he loved. HE wanted to challenge himself in the framework of the game. Cyborg never woke up and said to himself "Man it be great to Superman". That was the furthers thing from his mind. When Cyborg was written at his prime you knew that given the option of playing Football, even in a low minor league or being a superhero(or a Movie Star, or a Astronaut, or anything thing ELSE) Cyborg would have picked playing football. Being just a "normal" dude who played the game he loved.

Thats the character. He is the guy who somewhat was pushed into becoming a superhero by happen stance. Because he knows he can help now and has a sense of duty that he must. Not to say he doesn't enjoy it or appreciate the opportunity to help others. Just that his plans for HIS life was never what it is now and given the opportunity to reverse it he would. In a heartbeat. (if no one was to suffer for the decision of reversing it.)

That's the character. That's what makes him work. That's what keeps people interested long term. That provides the emotional connections to real people that writers can build off of forever. He is a Solider in a War he doesn't really want fight but knows that he must.

Cyborg is a proctor to his detriment. He is the role model of turning struggle and weakness into strength. He is the role model of the only disability you truly have are the one you place on yourself. He is ideal of life having other plans than the ones you make for yourself and then doing your best with what you are given.

If someone does not understand, does not care, or does not appreciate that then Cyborg is simply not a character of your personal taste and you would be better off finding another. Lucky thing there are several to choose from.

[king81992]

But that's not something to build upon either.

He wanted to be an athlete, couldn't be because he became a super-hero against his will.

Great. And ?

What stories can you build out of this ? Not much. If his whole purpose is "I wanted to be an American football star" and he just became a hero by accident and never change from there... well, I'm sorry, but I won't give a **** for such a character, because he would be aimless, as deep as a flattened piece of paper and unable to move in any direction. Ergo, what's been plaguing Cyborg ever since the 80's ended and the luster he had as a New Teen Titan faded away.

If it's truly what DC wants for the character, then the best thing they could do to it is to retire him. Because he would have no story nor character potential, if he always has to be that, the former athlete whose dream has been destroyed. And I don't want Vic to go into limbo, but frankly, if he has to be just that, it would be an act of mercy. At least then, DC could perhaps try to have an actually more deep and interesting PoC (by virtue of not being tied to a foundation as rotten as Cyborg the former Jock is) put to prominence.

Ideally, you want to build a story about Cyborg going from reluctant hero to willing hero. This was already done years ago but writers keep revisiting the 'man or monster issue' because they are unable or unwilling to do anything else with Vic.

What do some athletes do after their career ends? They try to become coaches or try working in a team's front office. A mature Cyborg who has been a hero for years and accepted himself, should act as a coach/ mentor for younger heroes. That would open up a new direction for him.

[Iconic]

Why is the goal of a black male character to always be an athlete in majority white comics? How many of those were in Milestone. In Catalyst Prime? It's a tired trope from the minds of old non-black men.

Why do y'all think that's a thing? Who is that supposed to appeal to?

It's embarrassing that someone would feel that not being a star athlete would mentally cripple a person in such a way that being a superhero is a downgrade. He's a superior being but still moans that he doesn't get to pass a ball like a common fleshbag. Get real.

The average playing span of a football player is what...3-4 years. What about after that? Is he still supposed to be crying. Maybe he looked forward to a life of pain after his career is over. Who knows?

[DragonsChi]

Why is the goal of a black male character to always be an athlete in majority white comics? How many of those were in Milestone. In Catalyst Prime? It's a tired trope from the minds of old non-black men.

Why do y'all think that's a thing? Who is that supposed to appeal to?

It's embarrassing that someone would feel that not being a star athlete would mentally cripple a person in such a way that being a superhero is a downgrade. He's a superior being but still moans that he doesn't get to pass a ball like a common fleshbag. Get real.

The average playing span of a football player is what...3-4 years. What about after that? Is he still supposed to be crying. Maybe he looked forward to a life of pain after his career is over. Who knows?

Friend this narrative is completely false and off base. Victors wanting to be an athlete had NOTHING to do with his race.

As a Black Man I can tell you turning this into "Another way for the White Man to hold us down" argument is more embarrassing then having a character stay true to who and what he is so more people will appreciate him.

The ideal of taking away all of Victors problems and making him God in power levels simply because he is a Black Man does nothing more then turn him to Super POC. There is no depth there, there is no character, and there is no reason to be interested. All there is a cardboard cutout to trod out to give some false appearance of representation and heroism.

Ideally, you want to build a story about Cyborg going from reluctant hero to willing hero. This was already done years ago but writers keep revisiting the 'man or monster issue' because they are unable or unwilling to do anything else with Vic.

What do some athletes do after their career ends? They try to become coaches or try working in a team's front office. A mature Cyborg who has been a hero for years and accepted himself, should act as a coach/ mentor for younger heroes. That would open up a new direction for him.

This part was actually happening in Geoff Johns run of Teen Titans. It was a interesting role/mode to take but due to 52 being right around the corner we didn't get to see much off it.

[Iconic]

Some apparently think not being able to play a sport is a long-lasting, soul-crushing trauma. "This just in!" It's not. It's not that big of an issue. Dreams like that are crushed everyday. You move on. Sadly, all those who don't get to the pros also don't then get to be intergalactic superheroes.

[Iconic]

How long do you mourn over your body being made technologically superior?

People who lose limbs don't regain absolute use of them again. Cyborg does.

They don't get to fly. Cyborg does.

They don't morph their body into amazing forms. Cyborg does.

They don't gain the ability to fight crime and save those in need. Cyborg does.

How long?!?

And here's what I never got. Vic gets critically injured. It's either get injected with this nanotechnology and live....or let him die. His father saved his life!!! Initially, I expect shock but then I also expect acceptance. It was life or death. Or was it "the football" or death? This thread has confused me with that.

Either way he wasn't going to be playing "the football"! Oh! And the nanotechnology gave him amazing and unique super abilities that got him on the Justice League. They also gave him intergalactic fame he never would have achieved as "the football" player. But no-no. Let's just sulk about "the football" career that is just oh so important. Mm-hmm.

[king81992]

Friend this narrative is completely false and off base. Victors wanting to be an athlete had NOTHING to do with his race.

As a Black Man I can tell you turning this into "Another way for the White Man to hold us down" argument is more embarrassing then having a character stay true to who and what he is so more people will appreciate him.

The ideal of taking away all of Victors problems and making him God in power levels simply because he is a Black Man does nothing more then turn him to Super POC. There is no depth there, there is no character, and there is no reason to be interested. All there is a cardboard cutout to trod out to give some false appearance of representation and heroism.



This part was actually happening in Geoff Johns run of Teen Titans. It was a interesting role/mode to take but due to 52 being right around the corner we didn't get to see much off it.

That was probably the only worthwhile thing to come out of Johns run, I sometimes wonder how that would have played out if the storyline continued. Then again, Johns handling of the YJ cast in that run and certain other characters makes me think that things would've gone horribly wrong.

[DragonsChi]

This should be relatable to some:

That was probably the only worthwhile thing to come out of Johns run, I sometimes wonder how that would have played out if the storyline continued. Then again, Johns handling of the YJ cast in that run and certain other characters makes me think that things would've gone horribly wrong.

I'm inclined to agree with you. There were a lot of good idea's in his run but in quiet a few places the execution falls flat.

[Iconic]

In other news:

Nostalgia aside, would it be a worthwhile idea to have Vic go complete metallic face in the comics? Is anything lost by doing so?

[Ascended]

In other news:

Nostalgia aside, would it be a worthwhile idea to have Vic go complete metallic face in the comics? Is anything lost by doing so?

I think you lose a lot, actually.

From the business side of things you lose the character's most recognizable visual trait. Vic doesn't really have an emblem with any staying power. They've done a few over the years but none of them are nearly as recognizable to fandom (or the general public who know who Vic is) than the half-face plate. Removing that removes the biggest marketable aspect Cyborg has. And that's a big mistake.

You also lose some thematic elements that's expressed through his face design. Vic is a cyborg; man and machine both. His half-face plate represents that aspect of having a foot in both the physical world and the digital one.

Give him a full metal face and he's just going to look like any number of robots and Iron Men we have in comics. And we have plenty already. Likewise, if you remove the face plate and give him his full face back, you lose that same thematic visual representation.

[Iconic]

I think you lose a lot, actually.

From the business side of things you lose the character's most recognizable visual trait. Vic doesn't really have an emblem with any staying power. They've done a few over the years but none of them are nearly as recognizable to fandom (or the general public who know who Vic is) than the half-face plate. Removing that removes the biggest marketable aspect Cyborg has. And that's a big mistake.

You also lose some thematic elements that's expressed through his face design. Vic is a cyborg; man and machine both. His half-face plate represents that aspect of having a foot in both the physical world and the digital one.

Give him a full metal face and he's just going to look like any number of robots and Iron Men we have in comics. And we have plenty already. Likewise, if you remove the face plate and give him his full face back, you lose that same thematic visual representation.

Excellent points but what about the Kingdom Come version of Cyborg that was full metal? Is that not a legit angle to go?

[Ascended]

Excellent points but what about the Kingdom Come version of Cyborg that was full metal? Is that not a legit angle to go?

For an Elseworlds where Vic is just a background player? Sure. For the mainstream version that is supposed to be sustainable long-term? No, I dont think its a legit angle.

Consider it like this; if you took away Batman's pointy ear mask and cape, would that be a good decision or would it remove too many visual ques that make the character recognizable and marketable? You'd probably say its a mistake. It's not a good idea to remove Vic's most recognizable feature either.

What you can do, however, is allow for more adaptability inside the pages. Vic's half-face plate is a big visual marker, but inside the story you can have him create a hologram so he looks fully human, or cover the rest of his face for added protection when he's going into space or fighting a big major threat. But as a status quo, the biggest visual marker Vic has is his face, and it informs a lot about who he is. You take that away and its not really Vic anymore (and also far less marketable, which is reason enough to not do it).

[chief12d]

I think it depends on the type of stories that DC wants to tell (assuming this is purely comics we're talking about). If they're interested in continuing the "man vs machine" narrative and questioning the extent to which Cyborg is a man, then the face plate makes perfect sense. It's a physical manifestation of that struggle and drives the point the point home that he's caught between these two worlds and hasn't come to terms with it. But if you're expanding the conventions of the character and moving his thematic arc from one of emotional torment to inhabiting his role as the scion of a new breed of human (which is also a struggle) you have more leeway.

In the latter type of stories his appearance isn't as important and you can probably play with it more to remove what I feel is an archaic representation of technology. To me a red eye with some "techno"-like markings around it would be an adequate replacement. So depending on what aspect of the character DC wants to focus on they can move from the face plate into something more modern.

Looking at marketability, DC has failed to give Cyborg other identifiable features, symbols, etc. so he's pretty much stuck with the face plate as his "thing". But you could argue that by changing his aesthetic into a more appealing one you entice readers and feed into the sense of wish fulfillment that the character lacks. And (assuming we're still talking comics) there's not a whole lot of characters that look like Cyborg regardless of the face plate, especially if they keep the red eye alternative. So I don't feel like he'd get lost in the crowd if they did make the shift.

But as far as other media is concerned, there's definitely a hurdle but I feel like it's nowhere near as high as where it would've been 20 years ago. Society's notion of "cyborg" and "robot" have changed so dramatically that I don't think audiences would be floored at the idea of Cyborg replacing the face plate with something more seamless. Especially if they emphasize that he's a mix of alien tech and nanotechnology which pretty much explains anything in fiction lol. Shows like Westworld have demonstrated that human looking cybernetic beings can deliver powerful commentary on the nature of humanity and its conflict with technology without looking like a mix between the two. So while obviously one can expect opposition from some parts of the fanbase and perhaps casual viewers, I don't think it's a change that will entirely turn off people.

So like the above poster suggested, a compromise could work. For the most part he keeps both sides of his face, but when in combat he enters a battle mode with his face plate or something. I'd definitely prefer we see more of his real face because the face plate really doesn't drive home the man vs machine story unless he's worrying about his appearance, which I would like the character to move away from.

[Ascended]

Looking at marketability, DC has failed to give Cyborg other identifiable features, symbols, etc. so he's pretty much stuck with the face plate as his "thing". But you could argue that by changing his aesthetic into a more appealing one you entice readers and feed into the sense of wish fulfillment that the character lacks. And (assuming we're still talking comics) there's not a whole lot of characters that look like Cyborg regardless of the face plate, especially if they keep the red eye alternative. So I don't feel like he'd get lost in the crowd if they did make the shift.

You could also design and introduce a logo for him, and then push it. Logos are very important, and I bet anyone here would be hard pressed to think of a real A-list character who doesn't have one. Gotta have something to put on the t-shirts!

So you take a Cyborg logo and plaster it on everything he's in (TTGO! YJ Doom Patrol JL comics, everything). Then wait a few years and see if it's catching on and gaining any traction. And *that's* when you remove the face plate. If you gotta take out Vic's biggest visual marker, replace it with something else first.

Of course, that would require a vaguely long-term game plan, and the gumption to stick with it. Not to mention an interest in really pushing Cyborg as a major character. So I dont see DC doing it anytime soon.

[Robotman]

The comment about "what Victor Stone's dad used to make Cyborg"? Good to see our boy referenced on a show like that.

It makes sense as the show takes place during the New Teen Titans peak in comic book popularity. They’re supposed to be the “nerdy” characters so they would most likely be in the know.