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  1. #631
    BANNED Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    I think it depends on the type of stories that DC wants to tell (assuming this is purely comics we're talking about). If they're interested in continuing the "man vs machine" narrative and questioning the extent to which Cyborg is a man, then the face plate makes perfect sense. It's a physical manifestation of that struggle and drives the point the point home that he's caught between these two worlds and hasn't come to terms with it. But if you're expanding the conventions of the character and moving his thematic arc from one of emotional torment to inhabiting his role as the scion of a new breed of human (which is also a struggle) you have more leeway.

    In the latter type of stories his appearance isn't as important and you can probably play with it more to remove what I feel is an archaic representation of technology. To me a red eye with some "techno"-like markings around it would be an adequate replacement. So depending on what aspect of the character DC wants to focus on they can move from the face plate into something more modern.

    Looking at marketability, DC has failed to give Cyborg other identifiable features, symbols, etc. so he's pretty much stuck with the face plate as his "thing". But you could argue that by changing his aesthetic into a more appealing one you entice readers and feed into the sense of wish fulfillment that the character lacks. And (assuming we're still talking comics) there's not a whole lot of characters that look like Cyborg regardless of the face plate, especially if they keep the red eye alternative. So I don't feel like he'd get lost in the crowd if they did make the shift.

    But as far as other media is concerned, there's definitely a hurdle but I feel like it's nowhere near as high as where it would've been 20 years ago. Society's notion of "cyborg" and "robot" have changed so dramatically that I don't think audiences would be floored at the idea of Cyborg replacing the face plate with something more seamless. Especially if they emphasize that he's a mix of alien tech and nanotechnology which pretty much explains anything in fiction lol. Shows like Westworld have demonstrated that human looking cybernetic beings can deliver powerful commentary on the nature of humanity and its conflict with technology without looking like a mix between the two. So while obviously one can expect opposition from some parts of the fanbase and perhaps casual viewers, I don't think it's a change that will entirely turn off people.

    So like the above poster suggested, a compromise could work. For the most part he keeps both sides of his face, but when in combat he enters a battle mode with his face plate or something. I'd definitely prefer we see more of his real face because the face plate really doesn't drive home the man vs machine story unless he's worrying about his appearance, which I would like the character to move away from.
    Young Justice has one of the better designs


    I think this logo is pretty good


    They just haven't put all the elements together at one time. It is amazing how it is said that Cyborg can't be changed because you have to keep him looking a certain way and every version of him in media is different. I think every animated movie he was the look was different from movie to movie.



    This is my ideal look for him,Just put in the logo I think it is perfect. The face plate isn't going away so best way to use I think is somelike " I can change my whole body to look human but I keep my face like that as a reminder". Make it something that he chooses do and not a fully curse.

  2. #632
    Ultimate Member Robotman's Avatar
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    I think it’s a good sign that both the Young Justice and Doom Patrol versions of Vic are basing his look on the Ivan Reis character design. Hopefully that becomes the mainstream image of the character.

  3. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post

    This is my ideal look for him,Just put in the logo I think it is perfect. The face plate isn't going away so best way to use I think is somelike " I can change my whole body to look human but I keep my face like that as a reminder". Make it something that he chooses do and not a fully curse.
    This was actual a point in the Walker's story for Vic. He could change into a fully human design, but chose to stay in the Reiss design because he felt others wouldn't be ready to handle him like that. Which is pretty on the nose with DC and the people that don't like him being able to do that. Look like a regular person when not superheroing.

  4. #634
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmonk View Post
    This was actual a point in the Walker's story for Vic. He could change into a fully human design, but chose to stay in the Reiss design because he felt others wouldn't be ready to handle him like that. Which is pretty on the nose with DC and the people that don't like him being able to do that. Look like a regular person when not superheroing.
    How true that ended up being.

    It really seems like they've done everything but blend those looks together. Give him the logo. Re-modernize his look. Clarify his ability to change or not. I'm waiting on the definitive Cyborg going forward.

  5. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    In other news:

    Nostalgia aside, would it be a worthwhile idea to have Vic go complete metallic face in the comics? Is anything lost by doing so?
    I don't think so, I think the face plate is enough. Now what can be argued is the size of the face plate.
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  6. #636
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I agree with this. Cyborg should have overcome his angst a long time ago. Writers who keep bringing up the 'am I a man or monster/machine' storyline are actually stagnating his character. The whole NTT roster is a victim of this stagnation and part of the reason why writers constantly rehash old storylines or derail them when everything else fails. Just because it worked in the 1980s doesn't mean that it works in the current year or that a character has to remain the same because of 'muh tradition'.
    I actually think it quit working in the 1980s. I recently posted on this in the Teen Titans thread. Pre-Crisis was better than Post-Crisis to me. One reason was the rehashed storylines. Vic going back over "man or machine." Gar's dad going crazy/evil again (and being healed by Raven again in the end). I think having a specific idea what a motivation for a character is can be great, and it worked well in the early stories. But when you are trying to maintain an audience (instead of having new kids reading every few years), you can't do the same exact character struggle over and over again. Trigon needed to stay dead after he was killed and Raven move on with her life free of him and adjust to that. Tamaran or its remains have been destroyed how many times now?

    For my money, much as I loved the storyline, Dick trying to live up to Batman should have been resolved long ago. He was already widely recognized and respected as a hero and leader, IMO, when he took the name Nightwing (which I think was more editorial necessity than character-necessity, but for another discussion). What he needed was both to see it himself. And maybe, just maybe, have Batman act like it was true. Of course, post-Crisis, Bruce's parenting took a turn for the worse, as did the name-change, and the relationship. Dick's issue popped up again in his first solo days in Bludhaven and being around Bruce again, and I guess I can kinda get that. But he should have gotten over it quickly. Instead he lost his city and was a character adrift a bit, IMO. And Batman has grown to dominate everyone in the DC verse and Dick to be less than he once was, IMO, even before Ric. Sad.

    I do think they realized they were repeating, but then did things I had no interest in seeing (dark Raven, more machine Vic). Now that I think about it, for those two, instead of moving onward, they really just exaggerated the original issue to an unbearable degree. Of course, we were to the '90s by then. But even the second half of the '80s was weaker to me.

    Donna escaped the repeating, only to have her character lose everything that mattered be remade over and over. Raven and Gar have frequently been unallowed to grow up (though the latest de-aging seemingly didn't stick), having them on Teen Team again later. Vic has suffered from that, too. It's not them not being in solo comics that's a problem to me - there can be great characters on teams. It's the trying to keep them with the "kids" and rehashing of old storylines. Vic got upped to the big team on N52, but at the expense of important prior relationships. And, like most of the others, they wanted to start him over somewhere near the beginning. Like with most of the others, it doesn't work for me. I can really only like those when I haven't read prior stories, when those events and relationships that were important to a character are not too important for me to lose.

    Motivation can remain the same - Batman cleaning up Gotham, Superman saving people. Some underlying issues can even remain. I think Vic's could go either way: remain as a little underlying insecurity that just pops up occasionally or be something he works his way past. I do think the social exclusion he's likely to feel as long as his appearance is cyborgish is quite reasonably going to cause him frustration sometimes. But it's boring to read about over and over. Way back in classic Doctor Who, there's a season where the Doctor is supposed to be getting his companion back to the 1980s Heathrow Airport. In every story, when they land somewhere else, she complains about it. It's reasonable. But it's annoying to retread the same ground as a viewer over and over. So, no, I don't think he needs to be super happy about being a Cyborg - it definitely has a cost, particularly in social acceptance. And it can be explored in different ways. Never happened while I was reading, but I don't know if it ever did later - a lady who treats him as a novelty and wants to see how all the pieces work? But he needs more emotional range and goals and so forth. Different types of struggles. And a cast to interact with - either as a hero with a supporting cast or as part of ensemble. For my money, I'll almost always pick a book with a steady cast and home base over a nomadic hero.

    If DC wants Vic to be a big name player, they have to find a status quo and mindset for Vic that can be sustained indefinitely. Suffering from the trauma of his accident isn't going to work. It makes sense that he'd struggle with it early on, but once you're saying he's been active for a decade? No one is going to be sympathetic to that. He can, and should, always feel the sting of what he lost but he's gotta make peace with himself sometime, otherwise he's always going to be seen as a kid in the process of figuring himself out, and that's not going to put him on the same level as the rest of the League.
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    1) What it is truly like to be disabled.
    I actually think that comes up a lot with Barbara fans (and I'm one). Saying the character made great strides or became more interesting later is fine. Saying you prefer it is fine. Saying that in-universe she shouldn't want her paralysis undone or that she didn't lose anything is not, to me. She lost something. She may have gained other things, but she lost something. And what she gained, she wouldn't lose by having a cure - she could still be Oracle and not be paralyzed. Even be Oracle and work on the street. I didn't want her going back to Batgirl or de-aged, but undoing the paralysis is a big "yes" to me for character happiness (though happiness isn't the same was being an interesting character, that's a different argument). I also think the loss is downplayed, both with Barbara and Victor. With Barbara, it's treating hers like she just lost sensation mid-thigh and doesn't have any of the issues frequently associated with paralysis (muscle spams including bladder, bowel issues, loss of sexual sensation in genitals, etc.). Nowhere is this more apparent than in smutfic. For Vic, it's being able to blend into society, being perceived as a person. Though, in all fairness, we often see more of him worrying about it than it actually happening. Also, yes, the limiting in factor in finding a romantic partner, because it is going to be a turnoff to a lot of people and that's just a reality. But being famous helps on acceptance account. It's all well and good to say he shouldn't care what other people think and accept himself as he is. That would be emotionally healthier to a degree. But we're social creatures, and having a normal life outside the hero set is something many want. To go grocery shopping without being stared at, to go clubbing and meet someone, etc. Not to mention that the lost physical pieces of himself. I think it should hurt at first. Then comes either acceptance, a change in perspective (when he looked normal he though of himself as "human again" even though he was still cybernetic) indicating his was about perception rather than reality, or innovation (giving himself the ability to blend).

    CYBORG wanted something else for his life. HE wanted to play a sport that he loved. HE wanted to challenge himself in the framework of the game. Cyborg never woke up and said to himself "Man it be great to Superman". That was the furthers thing from his mind. When Cyborg was written at his prime you knew that given the option of playing Football, even in a low minor league or being a superhero(or a Movie Star, or a Astronaut, or anything thing ELSE) Cyborg would have picked playing football. Being just a "normal" dude who played the game he loved.
    I remember something like this from cartoon (haven't seen in a while), and some other references. But it was not a major part of the character, early on. Yes, he was athlete and cared about sports. But after the accident, sports just were not foremost on his mind at all. He probably mentioned them at some point, but it was not a major character component. He wasn't typically dreaming of his life if he'd been an athlete or anything. It was about being able to walk around and not be stared at, and about feeling human.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-09-2019 at 10:46 AM.

  7. #637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    You could also design and introduce a logo for him, and then push it. Logos are very important, and I bet anyone here would be hard pressed to think of a real A-list character who doesn't have one. Gotta have something to put on the t-shirts!

    So you take a Cyborg logo and plaster it on everything he's in (TTGO! YJ Doom Patrol JL comics, everything). Then wait a few years and see if it's catching on and gaining any traction. And *that's* when you remove the face plate. If you gotta take out Vic's biggest visual marker, replace it with something else first.

    Of course, that would require a vaguely long-term game plan, and the gumption to stick with it. Not to mention an interest in really pushing Cyborg as a major character. So I dont see DC doing it anytime soon.
    Yeah, an identifiable logo would go a long way to wean the character off the necessity of the face plate. But DC probably won't go for it until editorial gets invested or a top writer comes on board and redefines the character altogether. Either way, I definitely think the face plate has to go if DC wants to advance the concept of Cyborg.

  8. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Yeah, an identifiable logo would go a long way to wean the character off the necessity of the face plate. But DC probably won't go for it until editorial gets invested or a top writer comes on board and redefines the character altogether. Either way, I definitely think the face plate has to go if DC wants to advance the concept of Cyborg.
    DC seems pretty set on that awful C gear logo. Personally I'm team face plate.
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  9. #639
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    I remember something like this from cartoon (haven't seen in a while), and some other references. But it was not a major part of the character, early on. Yes, he was athlete and cared about sports. But after the accident, sports just were not foremost on his mind at all. He probably mentioned them at some point, but it was not a major character component. He wasn't typically dreaming of his life if he'd been an athlete or anything. It was about being able to walk around and not be stared at, and about feeling human.
    The cartoon was built around a mandate by a network with strict age restricted guidelines and by a creative team that wanted to keep the overall feel of the Titans light. They couldn't really play into the emotional loss to any degree warranted of Cyborgs stature even if they wanted too.
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  10. #640
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    The cartoon was built around a mandate by a network with strict age restricted guidelines and by a creative team that wanted to keep the overall feel of the Titans light. They couldn't really play into the emotional loss to any degree warranted of Cyborgs stature even if they wanted too.
    I should have clarified - it was not a major issue in the comics. I really don't remember the cartoon more than the tiniest amount (him talking about a time when he could work out to improve). But I just did a re-skim (too light to call a re-read) of about 1980-1987 in the comics earlier this week, and that's what I referring to in my post. I thought I'd said that and didn't - sorry. I just don't remember that sports were focused on at all for him in that era.

  11. #641
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I should have clarified - it was not a major issue in the comics. I really don't remember the cartoon more than the tiniest amount (him talking about a time when he could work out to improve). But I just did a re-skim (too light to call a re-read) of about 1980-1987 in the comics earlier this week, and that's what I referring to in my post. I thought I'd said that and didn't - sorry. I just don't remember that sports were focused on at all for him in that era.
    No worries.

    To the bold, it was there. It wasn't brought up all the time in the nature of "Man I wish I could play football" sense, though there are cases of it, but in the sense "that this was not the road I wanted to be on".
    He foresure does not wanted to have his limbs and face limbs taken from him for mechanical replacements.

    There are many people in general who view being a hero as some grand thing that anyone would want to be. But they forget that being a hero means continual sacrifice. It means constant pain, regret, and worry for little thanks, appreciation, or compensation. It's not some grand fun party of photos and showing off.

    Cyborg is a character who was built to show what it takes to be a real hero. Not because it's something he wants to do but because it's something worth doing now that he is able to. That is a character worth reading about and a real POC to follow for representation.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 07-09-2019 at 01:32 PM.
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  12. #642
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Yeah, an identifiable logo would go a long way to wean the character off the necessity of the face plate. But DC probably won't go for it until editorial gets invested or a top writer comes on board and redefines the character altogether. Either way, I definitely think the face plate has to go if DC wants to advance the concept of Cyborg.
    I think DC *could* advance the character with the face plate, but they'd have to bring their A-game with them. The size and shape, and more importantly the texture work, would be very important. Vic's tech has to look like an advanced version of our own, which currently means a super stylized and sleek look, like something Steve Jobs will invent in his next life. Not some 80's leftover.

    The face plate *does* serve two solid purposes; it illustrates how Vic has a foot in two worlds, and it shows that he's (technically) disabled. There are some strong parallels and narratives to pull from the.....I dont know what to call it, experience? struggle? ......of being handicapped and I think as much as Vic is (could be) wish fulfillment for everybody, he could perhaps strike an especially powerful chord with disabled readers.

    But its a double edged sword. Vic's situation also brings up some really rough issues and the face plate embodies those too. So not only do you have to spin the right stuff right, you have to be careful of how you spin and use the wrong stuff too.
    Last edited by Ascended; 07-09-2019 at 01:45 PM.
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  13. #643
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    Could have a middle ground of in the everyday Victor persona he's in human mode, wearing regular clothes and what-not. Then when it comes time to superhero he does like the rest of the heroes and does a quick change into his 'spandex'. That's where he gets the armor exterior, face plate, and logo. Cyborg in the streets, Victor in the sheets.

  14. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think DC *could* advance the character with the face plate, but they'd have to bring their A-game with them. The size and shape, and more importantly the texture work, would be very important. Vic's tech has to look like an advanced version of our own, which currently means a super stylized and sleek look, like something Steve Jobs will invent in his next life. Not some 80's leftover.

    The face plate *does* serve two solid purposes; it illustrates how Vic has a foot in two worlds, and it shows that he's (technically) disabled. There are some strong parallels and narratives to pull from the.....I dont know what to call it, experience? struggle? ......of being handicapped and I think as much as Vic is (could be) wish fulfillment for everybody, he could perhaps strike an especially powerful chord with disabled readers.

    But its a double edged sword. Vic's situation also brings up some really rough issues and the face plate embodies those too. So not only do you have to spin the right stuff right, you have to be careful of how you spin and use the wrong stuff too.
    Agree 100%. Cyborg's design issues are much bigger than the face plate. He needs a standardized design that reflects the seamless merger of technology and man he is supposed to represent. The fact that some outside media (Doom Patrol, YJ) are focusing on that is a good sign and could perhaps result in DC committing to a consistent look. Reiss' design was a very good choice for the character.

    However, I believe that from a thematic perspective, the face plate is only relevant insofar as writers are willing to tackle the man vs machine narrative from the perspective of Cyborg's appearance. If DC were to create Cyborg today and they wanted to illustrate him as being trapped between two worlds, I strongly suspect they would leave out the face plate and simply give him metallic limbs. It is an old-fashioned way of looking at technology that isn't exactly needed to depict the human-technology dichotomy in modern society. If writers were to broaden the types of ways his character approaches this dichotomy I think the face plate loses a lot of its narrative worth because his appearance is not the emphasis.

    A less "unconventional" face ups his wish fulfillment factor significantly (especially if combined with a lighter tone of storytelling) but it still allows him to comment on the disability narrative in a less on the nose manner. He's still a man deprived of his real limbs and with a computer running much of his biological processes, there are still avenues for him to be a strong character for the disabled (both physically and mentally). Like you said, reaching that balance is key, especially in light of the fact that DC promoted Cyborg to the League in large part because they wanted a premier, original black hero. Like any character with nuance, he could (and should) be many things to different people and the challenge of any writer is how to juggle all those elements.

  15. #645
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Agree 100%. Cyborg's design issues are much bigger than the face plate. He needs a standardized design that reflects the seamless merger of technology and man he is supposed to represent. The fact that some outside media (Doom Patrol, YJ) are focusing on that is a good sign and could perhaps result in DC committing to a consistent look. Reiss' design was a very good choice for the character.

    However, I believe that from a thematic perspective, the face plate is only relevant insofar as writers are willing to tackle the man vs machine narrative from the perspective of Cyborg's appearance. If DC were to create Cyborg today and they wanted to illustrate him as being trapped between two worlds, I strongly suspect they would leave out the face plate and simply give him metallic limbs. It is an old-fashioned way of looking at technology that isn't exactly needed to depict the human-technology dichotomy in modern society. If writers were to broaden the types of ways his character approaches this dichotomy I think the face plate loses a lot of its narrative worth because his appearance is not the emphasis.

    A less "unconventional" face ups his wish fulfillment factor significantly (especially if combined with a lighter tone of storytelling) but it still allows him to comment on the disability narrative in a less on the nose manner. He's still a man deprived of his real limbs and with a computer running much of his biological processes, there are still avenues for him to be a strong character for the disabled (both physically and mentally). Like you said, reaching that balance is key, especially in light of the fact that DC promoted Cyborg to the League in large part because they wanted a premier, original black hero. Like any character with nuance, he could (and should) be many things to different people and the challenge of any writer is how to juggle all those elements.
    Well said.

    I gotta say though, even if they remove the face plate, he's gotta keep the cybernetic eye, and I think it should be clearly cybernetic. It can be fairly small and unobtrusive rather than half his head (the YJ cartoon is moving in that direction, from the image above where Vic has a whole head of hair) but I think you can flip the "man or machine" theme and turn it into Vic seeing the world through two different perspectives, and the robot eye really helps sell that from a visual standpoint. I feel like that's the next natural step in Vic's journey; not one or the other but a fusion of both, and it keeps that "man or machine" theme active but in a different way.
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