BOOYAH!! Cyborg Appreciation Thread '19

[DragonsChi]

Hmmm, I can see what you mean but at that point we start to get into Westworld territory: if it's that indistinguishable from being human, does it really matter if it's "manufactured"? Especially in Vic's case in this particular situation since, generally in fiction, what makes robots/synthetic beings "inferior" is that they lack a soul. So if he looks and feels like a human, experiences stimuli like a human, and has a human soul?

I think that kind of transhumanist concept could be a more interesting thing to explore nowadays considering post-DCYou Vic's cybernetics have reached the point where he can regenerate/simulate a human, even if he generally stays fully metallic, than him debating himself about the merits of his humanity. Not more man or monster but maybe have him be more secure in his transhumanism and have it be that he has to help others contextualize that kind of bleeding edge philosophy.

World already has Vision, Red Torrnado, RoboCop, Robot Man, Mega Man and so on. And all of them probably has and will do it better at this point.

[lemonpeace]

World already has Vision, Red Torrnado, RoboCop, Robot Man, Mega Man and so on. And all of them probably has and will do it better at this point.

Eh, Robotman sure but I don't think Vision, Megaman, Red Tornado, or RobotCop really encompass that concept in the same way Vic could. Even Robotman doesn't have the same kind of approach(?) Vic brings to the table simply due to the natures of the characters and the genres they inhabit. Cliff is a white man's brain in a can inhabiting an insane world of absurd reality-bending gobbledee-gook, Vic is a black man with hyper-advanced enhancements in a world not too dissimilar from our own (sans the supers obviously). For Vic, imagine being a black man, a group often seen as natural "super predators", who's body is technologically enhanced far beyond most people on your planet. Black bodies get killed all the time for thinking they have a gun on them, now you are a black body that IS a gun (so to speak). That's what sets Vic apart, most of these high concept scifi transhuman type characters are easily white-coded, what happens when it's a black face trying to reassure you of their humanity? How would you feel if you were part of a marginalized group and suddenly found yourself beyond the human status quo? In AMERICA no less! I'm just saying they can tackle these tech issues from different angles besides man v machine-monster. Clearly we have very different ideas on the direction the character should be taken or how he can be interpreted and I know you care for the character but, with all due respect, I don't think painting him in a smaller and smaller box for where he can go or moving the goal post when DC barely knows how to kick the damn ball helps the character at all.

[Wakeneuron]

Silas may not have been as hands on as Superman's dad but he was present in his life as were Vic's mother. They pushed him to be a scientist he rebelled and became a football player. But inserting Vic's past memories of his time on Earth in JLO doesn't have to be equivalent to Superman's memory in JL # 25. I was only implying that any memories or even any mention of his family or supporting cast on Earth would make JLO a better title. It could have just been Vic meeting someone special on a date but couldn't take the relationship further because he had to travel into the Ghost Sector.

[Killerbee911]

That's what sets Vic apart, most of these high concept scifi transhuman type characters are easily white-coded, what happens when it's a black face trying to reassure you of their humanity? How would you feel if you were part of a marginalized group and suddenly found yourself beyond the human status quo? In AMERICA no less! I'm just saying they can tackle these tech issues from different angles besides man v machine-monster. Clearly we have very different ideas on the direction the character should be taken or how he can be interpreted and I know you care for the character but, with all due respect, I don't think painting him in a smaller and smaller box for where he can go or moving the goal post when DC barely knows how to kick the damn ball helps the character at all.

You are fighting a lost cause regardless of how many we say it some people just want him to be an ugly monster. When we have seen enough Vampire movies to see a person who looks exactly human feel like a monster. They are fiction like Blade Runner and Ghost in Shell who with Cyborgs who look completely like a human, do the I am man or machine, what is a soul. I don't think his presentation needs to be the disfigured guy all the time I think Cyborg works perfectly fine with a mode that looks human and when he is combat obviously he looks like the classic cyborg.

[Wakeneuron]

After Cyborg got the clone body created by Nightwing he was still able to summon up his cybernetics and became Cyborg with a golden color because his golden omegadrone body also merged with the cloned human body.
During that time Cyborg started to appear in the Flash title written by Geoff Johns starring Wally West. And fans began complaining about wanting Cyborg to have his original white metallic look back. So in the Flash the villain the Thinker froze Cyborg's cybernetics in place. He could no longer look human. He was now a cyborg 24/7 as he originally was.
Also. In his original form Cyborg did not lack 'junk'. In New Teen Titans # 7 (1980) when the Titans fought Dr. Light George Perez clearly drew were Cyborg's cybernetics end and his human flesh began. So originally he still had 'junk' and Marv wrote him having sex with Sarah Charles in NTT # 54 baxter edition. So when Thinker froze him back into his original form he should still have his manhood because it was there originally.
And now that Rebirth is here this story could still be canon. And if Cyborg could possibly undo what the Thinker did to him he could go back to looking human.

[DragonsChi]

Eh, Robotman sure but I don't think Vision, Megaman, Red Tornado, or RobotCop really encompass that concept in the same way Vic could. Even Robotman doesn't have the same kind of approach(?) Vic brings to the table simply due to the natures of the characters and the genres they inhabit. Cliff is a white man's brain in a can inhabiting an insane world of absurd reality-bending gobbledee-gook, Vic is a black man with hyper-advanced enhancements in a world not too dissimilar from our own (sans the supers obviously). For Vic, imagine being a black man, a group often seen as natural "super predators", who's body is technologically enhanced far beyond most people on your planet. Black bodies get killed all the time for thinking they have a gun on them, now you are a black body that IS a gun (so to speak). That's what sets Vic apart, most of these high concept scifi transhuman type characters are easily white-coded, what happens when it's a black face trying to reassure you of their humanity? How would you feel if you were part of a marginalized group and suddenly found yourself beyond the human status quo? In AMERICA no less! I'm just saying they can tackle these tech issues from different angles besides man v machine-monster. Clearly we have very different ideas on the direction the character should be taken or how he can be interpreted and I know you care for the character but, with all due respect, I don't think painting him in a smaller and smaller box for where he can go or moving the goal post when DC barely knows how to kick the damn ball helps the character at all.

All the beats you are asking for have already been done by them in some form. Those are more or less their story lines/archs. Asking for Cyborg to be a specific Black Narrative like Luke Cage or something will just place him in a another box and still will not achieve the goal you are looking for as being "Top Black Male Character int the DCU".

Having another "Black Man Potentially Dangerous" story line will do nothing but alienate his audience. Since Cyborg race was hardly ever mentioned in his story arch. Cyborg was just a character not a black character. Now they did use his cybernetics as an allegory to race once ,and it was done really well, but thats it. Him being black was never the focal point of his character. Those types of stories would work better with John Stewart (though he kind of grew out of that) and Black Lightning more so then it would be for Cyborg.

You are fighting a lost cause regardless of how many we say it some people just want him to be an ugly monster. When we have seen enough Vampire movies to see a person who looks exactly human feel like a monster. They are fiction like Blade Runner and Ghost in Shell who with Cyborgs who look completely like a human, do the I am man or machine, what is a soul. I don't think his presentation needs to be the disfigured guy all the time I think Cyborg works perfectly fine with a mode that looks human and when he is combat obviously he looks like the classic cyborg.

Eh, we pretty much established that you don't really understand characterization with the Hulk debate and prefer your idealization version verses true character and story development. You also made it clear that your willing to force things on people who won't buy the stuff you want leading to failed books. Sooooo, at this point not sure how valid your points can be.

[DragonsChi]

To go off of what Wakeneuron said here is Marv original design where he makes it clear that Cyborg is half man/half machine



You can see that most of his mid section is flesh/human while his limbs are all cybernetics. The design of his body costume also confirmed this just by how it was drawn.

Compared to this, where the artist is telling you how he see's cyborg.


Where the close go on top of his metal body.

Also...if fans were the ones who help get rid of the gold look then good for them. lol


This design was not flattering. It be cool if he could have kept the ability to go back and forth for a little bit but the metal/cybernetics be there traditional silver. But the changing back in forth would never last. Because it plays against who the character is.

[DragonsChi]

Take a look at this page


See the line of struggle and happiness. That give and flow that makes you care and feel for the character in one page. You take away the elements of that from a character and you might as well be clipping him at the knees.

The character will not take off and no one will care. See several of the new characters at Marvel for that. Many of them have potential to be good well developed characters but most of them are step down form a Mary Sue. They don't have a real voice at all. DC was in a similar boat not to long ago but you can tell they are in serious course correct mode so it's getting better slowly.

[DragonsChi]

After Cyborg got the clone body created by Nightwing he was still able to summon up his cybernetics and became Cyborg with a golden color because his golden omegadrone body also merged with the cloned human body.
During that time Cyborg started to appear in the Flash title written by Geoff Johns starring Wally West. And fans began complaining about wanting Cyborg to have his original white metallic look back. So in the Flash the villain the Thinker froze Cyborg's cybernetics in place. He could no longer look human. He was now a cyborg 24/7 as he originally was.
Also. In his original form Cyborg did not lack 'junk'. In New Teen Titans # 7 (1980) when the Titans fought Dr. Light George Perez clearly drew were Cyborg's cybernetics end and his human flesh began. So originally he still had 'junk' and Marv wrote him having sex with Sarah Charles in NTT # 54 baxter edition. So when Thinker froze him back into his original form he should still have his manhood because it was there originally.
And now that Rebirth is here this story could still be canon. And if Cyborg could possibly undo what the Thinker did to him he could go back to looking human.

I'm not sure about that since if he got "stuck" in the cybernetics mode how could he take off the now metal costume he wore over his body? His mid costume was also drawn in a more metallic than it was before.


Note how there is no break between his waist and legs anymore as well. Again, this is Geoff Johns work/idea the man who gave a Head on a Giant Metal Body Cyborg. Johns who was a Co-Architect of the New 52. Johns who is all about character driven stories but has shown on multiple occasions in his work how he thinks black men are or black men view the world. (Not saying John's racist. I am saying I think he is ignorant to Black culture and his line of story telling for black people would benefit from some tutelage from a Priest or McDuffie(RIP) just so he gets a better understanding.)

[Killerbee911]

Eh, we pretty much established that you don't really understand characterization with the Hulk debate and prefer your idealization version verses true character and story development. You also made it clear that your willing to force things on people who won't buy the stuff you want leading to failed books. Sooooo, at this point not sure how valid your points can be.

There was no Hulk debate... There is also no "WE" it is just your opinion. And I don't care how you prefer Cyborg that your choice. You keep interjecting "No Cyborg must be this", While I(and others) keep saying Cyborg could be this and I would like to see this direction. My opinions of a direction don't hurt what you think about Cyborg. You are the one who keeps jumping trying to minimize people's opinion. You like Cyborg a certain way fine I think he can evolve into something more. I prefer a different direction which doesn't mean I am not fine to some level with some presentation of the current Cyborg or his presentation in the past.

Clearly, understand this " I AM NOT TELLING YOU HOW YOU SHOULD PREFER CYBORG and you dam sure AREN'T GOING TO TELL ME HOW I SHOULD PREFER CYBORG" If you don't like my ideas fine I don't care don't the only issue I have in this thread is any person saying Cyborg can't be a certain thing because he was this thing in past. That is going ALWAYS be wrong. You don't like my opinion of a future direction fine, I am not a writer at DC my words aren't going to make a change happen. But one thing that is not going to happen you are not going to tell me it can't be that way. You don't like my post you don't have to comment on them.

[Vampire Savior]

I think people can like their daydream version of Cyborg all they want (as I said earlier, don't let me rain on your parade). The only points I will challenge somewhat are them blasting DC for not turning Cyborg into this daydream idea that has only really existed in their heads, and then implying that DC has a racist motive behind not turning Cyborg into this thing he has never really been. Because, you know, when you look at it that way, that's just a weird thing to do on all accounts.

No, it's just that DC believes there are certain points that are fundamental to Cyborg that they have been promoting to millions of people and DC will not change those things. They feel this way about pretty much all their characters. At least the ones they even remotely care about.

"Oh no! Cyborg isn't wish fulfillment." Guess what? He was never meant to be. Those of us saying that aren't the ones that are off base. We're just seeing what's there and what has been there this whole time. Like 40 years. Don't be upset at people for pointing that out or at DC for not capitulating to your daydreams, most of which are pretty darn off base for the character.

[Wakeneuron]

I'm not sure about that since if he got "stuck" in the cybernetics mode how could he take off the now metal costume he wore over his body? His mid costume was also drawn in a more metallic than it was before.


Note how there is no break between his waist and legs anymore as well. Again, this is Geoff Johns work/idea the man who gave a Head on a Giant Metal Body Cyborg. Johns who was a Co-Architect of the New 52. Johns who is all about character driven stories but has shown on multiple occasions in his work how he thinks black men are or black men view the world. (Not saying John's racist. I am saying I think he is ignorant to Black culture and his line of story telling for black people would benefit from some tutelage from a Priest or McDuffie(RIP) just so he gets a better understanding.)

I think that in this instance that Geoff Johns may have contradicted himself between two storylines. But are you saying that because Cyborg is covered in metal from the waist down in John's Titans run he didn't have a penis? I do not necessarily believe that to be the case. I don't know the intent of Geoff Johns or the DC office but I generally believe that Cyborg's manhood is intake because why wouldn't he want a penis since he's a man? Maybe the DC office joke about Cyborg not having one but generally this shouldn't even be discussed in a book aimed at a general audience.
Scientists today in the real world can make a penis for a Woman who want to transition into a man by taking a piece of her flesh from another part of her body. Also scientists can now make soft robots. I just read an article about how they made soft 2 inch worms that can be used as drones. So clearly today someone like Cyborg or even Robotman can have a penis. They are men after all so why wouldn't they want their manhood? The science is there but clearly today's comic book writers are stuck in the 80s or they're just do not care to do the research. Or maybe they think it's cool or funny that they possibly do not have one I don't know. But I hope that's not the case.

[Iconic]

It's ok to tune out the noise.

So yeah, I'm enjoying this journey towards a more wishfulfilment Victor Stone. If someone wants the opposite, oh well!

[Killerbee911]

I think people can like their daydream version of Cyborg all they want (as I said earlier, don't let me rain on your parade). The only points I will challenge somewhat are them blasting DC for not turning Cyborg into this daydream idea that has only really existed in their heads, and then implying that DC has a racist motive behind not turning Cyborg into this thing he has never really been. Because, you know, when you look at it that way, that's just a weird thing to do on all accounts.

No, it's just that DC believes there are certain points that are fundamental to Cyborg that they have been promoting to millions of people and DC will not change those things. They feel this way about pretty much all their characters. At least the ones they even remotely care about.

"Oh no! Cyborg isn't wish fulfillment." Guess what? He was never meant to be. Those of us saying that aren't the ones that are off base. We're just seeing what's there and what has been there this whole time. Like 40 years. Don't be upset at people for pointing that out or at DC for not capitulating to your daydreams, most of which are pretty darn off base for the character.

Once again you are mistaken forum full out wish talk for people not knowing the difference of what can really be implemented

- We have talk about Cyborg looking more human- That is not wishful thinking- They have been version that looks more human than clunky robot. In fact, the current Cyborg can make himself look human if wanted too. We are not imagining that

-We have talk about Cyborg being more important- That is not wishful thinking- In flashpoint, they used him like Superman for a short period of time He was the leader of the Justice League. We are not imagining that

- We have talk about Cyborg being heavier hitter- That is not wishful thinking- He is Technopath, with regeneration, Teleportation, super strength,etc . We are not imagining that

You are trying to tell me this can't happen when this stuff is happening in the comics and other media. You are trying to say hey are wrong when in young justice he looks like this



The manner it is being presented at times is a little over the top but that is just us being fans, Everybody goes a little overboard with their favorite characters. What most people are saying based on things they are seeing and that is what you are missing. Yeah I am saying Cyborg should be a Tech God who can look human and that sounds crazy to you. But If I say he should look like Reis or young justice version with the ability to nanotech transform into human-like in Walker books and he should carry more important universe like he did in the flashpoint. I am saying the same thing. My "Daydreams" are things that have actually happen in books.

[DragonsChi]

There was no Hulk debate... There is also no "WE" it is just your opinion. And I don't care how you prefer Cyborg that your choice. You keep interjecting "No Cyborg must be this", While I(and others) keep saying Cyborg could be this and I would like to see this direction. My opinions of a direction don't hurt what you think about Cyborg. You are the one who keeps jumping trying to minimize people's opinion. You like Cyborg a certain way fine I think he can evolve into something more. I prefer a different direction which doesn't mean I am not fine to some level with some presentation of the current Cyborg or his presentation in the past.

Clearly, understand this " I AM NOT TELLING YOU HOW YOU SHOULD PREFER CYBORG and you dam sure AREN'T GOING TO TELL ME HOW I SHOULD PREFER CYBORG" If you don't like my ideas fine I don't care don't the only issue I have in this thread is any person saying Cyborg can't be a certain thing because he was this thing in past. That is going ALWAYS be wrong. You don't like my opinion of a future direction fine, I am not a writer at DC my words aren't going to make a change happen. But one thing that is not going to happen you are not going to tell me it can't be that way. You don't like my post you don't have to comment on them.

I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about anything. I am telling you most of your commentary on how the characters have been portrayed and how character development works is incorrect. Those aren't my opinions, there are actual text book ways on how to write literature and story development.

So far most of your "preferences" on Cyborg don't and have never existed. So what I'm saying lines up on how you are portraying yourself and your post. *shrug*

I think people can like their daydream version of Cyborg all they want (as I said earlier, don't let me rain on your parade). The only points I will challenge somewhat are them blasting DC for not turning Cyborg into this daydream idea that has only really existed in their heads, and then implying that DC has a racist motive behind not turning Cyborg into this thing he has never really been. Because, you know, when you look at it that way, that's just a weird thing to do on all accounts.

No, it's just that DC believes there are certain points that are fundamental to Cyborg that they have been promoting to millions of people and DC will not change those things. They feel this way about pretty much all their characters. At least the ones they even remotely care about.

"Oh no! Cyborg isn't wish fulfillment." Guess what? He was never meant to be. Those of us saying that aren't the ones that are off base. We're just seeing what's there and what has been there this whole time. Like 40 years. Don't be upset at people for pointing that out or at DC for not capitulating to your daydreams, most of which are pretty darn off base for the character.

This.