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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Honestly, I don't think many black people are used to seeing stories starring black people that don't feature some kind of social commentary or allusions to race. That may be why, when it's not featured, some bring it up as a complaint. Because they're just not used to seeing something like that, and something they're expecting just isn't there. Kinda' like it's an elephant in the room to them that's just not being addressed.

    Regarding Cyborg and Justice League, I think he was overshadowed by all the other heroes there, so he was kind of a non-issue. Plus the movie was a critical and commercial failure, so people just don't really consider it too much.
    This is true, when I bring up how I’m not interested in slavery, hood, or civil rights films I always get the answers “this is our culture” or “this is our history”. These types of images a lot of times are demeaning yet we say this is representation of us. Not to mention stereotypes, black people have grown so accustomed to seeing these things that we perpetuate them ourselves in film. I’ve seen so many films/tv shows that I’m shocked they were created by black people.
    That’s my main complaint when it comes to black superheroes Black Panther, Luke Cage and Black Lightning have had lead roles in tv/film in this Golden Age Of Heroes and they all have the same underlying theme of social commentary. I think if there was variety amongst these stories it would be a lot more special based on what is presented rather than represented.

  2. #212
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    I don't know how this all deviated into "the black experience" but that's not what was being asked for. I believe Coates would give Vic humanity and respect. I also believe he can do more than what many think without tying it to race. He's deep and Vic could use some depth.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. D. Guy View Post
    Shame on you for perpetuating that lie/exaggeration. Like seriously, shame, man! I'm legit upset to see this.

    I would love Coates to get the chance to do a DC book, and having him on Cyborg (or Superman for a bit) would be fun! That man is an awesome and nuanced writer.

    It would still fall down to what would the higher-ups allow; he'd need to be given free-enough reign and not have what happened to Walker and Semper happen to him. (I still stand by Semper having done right by Cyborg during his time. He was just hampered and put on more of a leash than Walker was.)
    Sorry being honest. That is Black Panther's BOOK not anyone else. And I would say the same if it was done to Batman, Barry or anyone else.
    You want to build up PETS? Nothing is wrong with backups-we saw it done with Duke in All Star Batman. Savage Dragon does it way too much. Ahoy Comics does it.
    I will give him credit for building up Storm but where is her book at? At least the Doras started in a spinoff.


    Honestly I agree with him. I understand the importance of social commentary but not every black character needs to take up a political stand, especially in substitution of grand adventures. Black characters rarely get grand adventures stories and I would lile to see more of those.
    Okay you need to stop preaching to the choir
    Once of the issues we have with black (mainly) characters being accepted is way too much ABC After School Special nonsense gets used with them way too much or we fill a diversity check.

    I could do a THREAD on how many times a race or social commentary story has been used on black characters.
    Static did it TWICE in his 26 years of being around. Issue 5-7 in his first series and one episode of Static Shock.
    Cyborg's little bud Exxy is a walking example. Can't be a smart nerd have to have only a mother and into criminal stuff.
    Wallace West accused of robbing a store DESPITE the robber being WHITE (see Teen Titans Rebirth issue).
    Eli Bradley is the alpha and omega of social commentary.
    I can't even watch Black Lightning.

    It's a trap. When a black character moves away from being an outlet for social commentary, there will be a segment of people who try to put them back in that box, saying, "We need to explore their experience as a black person, because ignoring it isn't genuine."
    I thought you didn't read Miles Morales. Because that is who you are talking about. Before Jason Reynolds novel and even Spiderverse that was all I heard was Miles was not black enough.
    Wizard the Guide to comics TRASHED Milestone over those guys not being "black" enough.
    Storm's book had her blackness questioned in issue ONE.
    Lion Forge's Noble is getting that treatment too now because of a reference about "what about black violence."


    I don't know if that's the best example since the BL tv show does have an audience.
    Because it uses the social commentary to PANDER to an audience. It's telling folks what they WANT to hear versus what they NEED to hear.
    It gets to you are so HAPPY to see this stuff starring us that everything else takes a backseat.
    See Titus Makin Jr on ABC's The Rookie. If his character was not gay-no one would care about him. The LEAST developed person on that show. Remind anyone of somebody who say Booyah?

  4. #214
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    I don't know how this all deviated into "the black experience" but that's not what was being asked for. I believe Coates would give Vic humanity and respect. I also believe he can do more than what many think without tying it to race. He's deep and Vic could use some depth.
    He does, but I think the point is what kind of depth would he give him. We've seen on many occasions that if you give writers free reign, there can be everlasting consequences even if they had noble intentions. Someone had the bright idea to have Hank Pym strike his wife decades ago because they probably thought domestic violence was a serious issue that needed to be brought up in one of their stories, and to this day the two things everyone remembers the most about Pym is the fact that he abused his wife and created a genocidal robot. That character is a founding Avenger and he's been seen as toxic for so many years because of writers who wanted to give him more "depth" ended up doing to him instead. That's just one example.

    I'm by no means suggesting that a writer like Coates would portray Cyborg in a negative light like that, but there could often be a price to pay when you give one of your premier characters to a writer and tell them they can basically do whatever they wish with them.

  5. #215
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    I'm absolutely loving the version of Cyborg in "Doom Patrol" (the TV series). I'm glad he is a patroller.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    This is true, when I bring up how I’m not interested in slavery, hood, or civil rights films I always get the answers “this is our culture” or “this is our history”. These types of images a lot of times are demeaning yet we say this is representation of us. Not to mention stereotypes, black people have grown so accustomed to seeing these things that we perpetuate them ourselves in film. I’ve seen so many films/tv shows that I’m shocked they were created by black people.
    That’s my main complaint when it comes to black superheroes Black Panther, Luke Cage and Black Lightning have had lead roles in tv/film in this Golden Age Of Heroes and they all have the same underlying theme of social commentary. I think if there was variety amongst these stories it would be a lot more special based on what is presented rather than represented.
    Because it is the EASY way to MONEY.

    The moment you VEER from it you got a harder battle to fight.

    It's hard for us to get that BALANCE of representation.


    I also believe he can do more than what many think without tying it to race. He's deep and Vic could use some depth.
    Question-will DC TELL him that?

    The issue is they see MONEY in RACE issues.
    This is what they see when they look at trade sales on Amazon.

    Black Panther (Coates) volume 1
    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #14,257 in Books
    Luke Cage vol 1
    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #306,666 in Books
    Miles Morales (last run by Bendis)
    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #9,264 in Books
    Miles Morales (new run)
    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #277,437 in Books
    Falcon (solo under his name)
    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #508,894 in Books

    Cyborg Rebirth vol 1
    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #903,099 in Books
    vol 2
    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #1,063,798 in Books
    vol 3
    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #1,267,495 in Books

    Coates would be allowed to do WHATEVER he wanted with Cyborg and that in NOT a good thing. Yeah you would see the SAME thing Panther got-website suddenly doing reviews and mysterious praise for issues NOT out yet.
    And eventually sales on the floppy decline. However because it was Black Panther with a BILLION dollar film-it made no difference in trade sales as they increased.

    Cyborg does not have a movie. Coates antics on Panther is a turn off to some people especially considering he did not do those antics with Cap America. So even if you got him-he would have to try something different in getting readers from the jump.

  7. #217
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    I hear what y'all are saying but I'm hungry for legit Cyborg development. I'd be thrilled if Bendis took interest.

    @skyvolt2000
    Where are you seeing any talk about Noble? I've been looking around for forums about him and Catalyst Prime.

  8. #218
    Astonishing Member Cville's Avatar
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    I would say no to Coates writing Cyborg. While it appears most Cap fans like his run, I read the first couple of issues and found it drab. But I also remember him saying that the EIC helped to revise his script, so it seems like Cap gets a lot of oversight. But in general seems to prefer to write men down to build up women. Which is fine if he is writing a comic with a lead female protagonist. I'd give him Misty, Storm, or an X title before Cyborg.

  9. #219
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    I would love to have Ta-Nehisi Coates on Cyborg, especially if he were pick up the threads from David F Walker's run. I never understood the whole "he tears down the male character to build up the female ones" nor the socio-conscious criticisms, they generally come off hyperbolic and exaggerated when actually reading his books. I rather a writer who would actually move the needle for the character than the copy-paste uninspired stuff DC tends to slap him with and I'm fairly certain Coates would be able to make moves with Cyborg that'll actually matter.
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  10. #220
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I would love to have Ta-Nehisi Coates on Cyborg, especially if he were pick up the threads from David F Walker's run. I never understood the whole "he tears down the male character to build up the female ones" nor the socio-conscious criticisms, they generally come off hyperbolic and exaggerated when actually reading his books. I rather a writer who would actually move the needle for the character than the copy-paste uninspired stuff DC tends to slap him with and I'm fairly certain Coates would be able to make moves with Cyborg that'll actually matter.
    Have you read any of his Black Panther run? There is a lot of it in there.
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  11. #221
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I would love to have Ta-Nehisi Coates on Cyborg, especially if he were pick up the threads from David F Walker's run. I never understood the whole "he tears down the male character to build up the female ones" nor the socio-conscious criticisms, they generally come off hyperbolic and exaggerated when actually reading his books.
    o____O

    In Black Panther & The Crew, Hydra’s Getting Into the Most Nefarious Business of All: Gentrification
    https://io9.gizmodo.com/in-black-pan...e-m-1796181847
    "In this week’s issue of Ta-Nehisi Coates’ Black Panther & The Crew, T’Challa, Storm, and Misty Knight continue to look into the mysterious death of Harlem-based civil rights activist Ezra Miller. The team’s sleuthing takes them to the newly christened “So-Ha,”a place that used to be known as South Harlem."

    ---------

    I understand that you may like the idea of "black-centric" stories, but I don't see how you can say that what some have said about Coates is hyperbolic. For example, the man literally wrote a story of black Marvel superheroes getting together to fight the gentrification of Harlem.

    I would also think it would be easy to understand why some might not want something like that from Cyborg, since he wasn't necessarily created for the purpose of social commentary. Luke Cage, Black Panther, and Black Lightning have that stuff in their very foundation since their creation, so it makes more sense to do that with them, and if you don't like that stuff, you just avoid those characters (like I do, for the most part). But Cyborg wasn't created with that as a part of his foundation. He just happens to be black.

  12. #222
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    I don’t really see why you can’t do social commentary with Cyborg. As an African-American raised in Detroit he’s far more suited to talking about topics such as gentrification than T’Challa will ever be. And frankly I’d take using Cyborg to make commentary about race and class in America over “Man or Machine?” bull any day. But Coate s has been odd in that if you had asked me before he started writing comics who he’d be better suited for, BP or Cap America, I’d have said BP. Yet I’ve really enjoyed his Cap run and been utterly bored by his BP. So even though he seems like he’d mesh well with Cyborg that’s no guarantee that he actually would do a good job.

    It’s a moot point though, I don’t believe Coates is going to make the hop over to DC. He was a Marvel kid growing up and I’d sooner believe he’d abandon comics all together and go back to writing his essays than come to DC and write Cyborg.

  13. #223
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    o____O

    In Black Panther & The Crew, Hydra’s Getting Into the Most Nefarious Business of All: Gentrification
    https://io9.gizmodo.com/in-black-pan...e-m-1796181847
    "In this week’s issue of Ta-Nehisi Coates’ Black Panther & The Crew, T’Challa, Storm, and Misty Knight continue to look into the mysterious death of Harlem-based civil rights activist Ezra Miller. The team’s sleuthing takes them to the newly christened “So-Ha,”a place that used to be known as South Harlem."

    ---------

    I understand that you may like the idea of "black-centric" stories, but I don't see how you can say that what some have said about Coates is hyperbolic. For example, the man literally wrote a story of black Marvel superheroes getting together to fight the gentrification of Harlem.

    I would also think it would be easy to understand why some might not want something like that from Cyborg, since he wasn't necessarily created for the purpose of social commentary. Luke Cage, Black Panther, and Black Lightning have that stuff in their very foundation since their creation, so it makes more sense to do that with them, and if you don't like that stuff, you just avoid those characters (like I do, for the most part). But Cyborg wasn't created with that as a part of his foundation. He just happens to be black.
    I wouldn’t want a writer to focus solely on Vic’s “blackness” but as a black man in America the issue of race would be brought up for good or for ill. Cyborg as one of the faces of the Justice League would be one of the most respected superheroes on earth. I guess the closest we would have in the real world would be someone like Lebron James. One of the most successful and respected athletes in the world but he has still had to deal with racist shit. Cyborg’s race was referenced a bit during his NTT days, but like you said it wasn’t the focus of the character.

  14. #224
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    I believe VS is saying that those stories can be done but a whole arch or several wouldn't fit with the characters motivation or previous history.

    If you wanted you could do the same "gentrification" or African-American stories that you mentioned with Superman (In fact he has a couple under belt already) but no one would argue he wouldn't be the best character for that type of story telling on-going.

    It's the same with Cyborg. Being black or growing up in a certain place does not define who you are or mean that you follow the same line of "think" and struggles. Not trying to speak for VS but I think he just means there are better characters suited for it. Which I would agree.
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  15. #225

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    I enjoyed Christopher Priest's recent work so I'd be interested in him doing a solo on him. I liked his take on Cyborg in Justice League and thought it had promise. The whole run started out strong but had a whimper of an end.

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