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  1. #661
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I wouldn't listen to Darkseid. He's a villain. And no hero that isn't actually a diety (or a New God) should ever consider themselves a god. Gods are meant to be worshiped - and to mete out punishment to those who don't worship properly. It's a villain's role. Which, without wider context, would be what I would think Darkseid was trying to lead him to. When, in fact, Victor is human. Actually, Darkseid has historically been a worse god that than, since his goal was the anti-life equation, which would take away free will (at least when I read).

    I can't help it, I'm old school and prefer the non-connected-to-mother-box version of Cyborg. I don't want him to be all-powerful. It's dull. I don't want Bart of have scouts, Barry to have electrokensis, or Wally to be a speed-thief, either. Part of it is a lack of liking for change. But part of it is heroes becoming too powerful. Superman in the silver age was just too far. Not sure he still isn't, really (same with Diana), but certain powers are so baked in public consciousness now, they aren't going to be reduced. Kinda like all the Bats to be more human and less super-human, too, btw.

    Plus I deeply hate "it's all connected," especially where villains are retconned to have personal connections or control lives, etc when we saw them meet for the first time and it was not this at all. Like Ra's training Bruce or the Joker killing his parents (movie). The Talons wanting Dick, the Joker setting up Jason's life. Sinestro training Hal. Etc. It's a lazy way of adding drama to me. But I acknowledge a lot of people love that stuff.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-11-2019 at 04:46 PM.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I can't help it, I'm old school and prefer the non-connected-to-mother-box version of Cyborg. I don't want him to be all-powerful. It's dull.
    This is an interesting point. I completely understand the desire for Cyborg to move on from stories about Man vs. Machine. However, I do not understand this desire for this god version of Cyborg as much. Or rather, I do think I understand it, but I believe the thinking behind it to be somewhat wrongheaded.

    Godly powers do not necessarily make for better stories. I seem to see this type of thing with fans of black characters, where they want to see some godly black man and get off to powers, like people jizzing over this invisible spectrum stuff for John Stewart when, in reality, it's just a whole lot of nothing and not even really a good idea. When you really get down to it, what these characters really need are good stories, not power level adjustments. It's true that powers can drive plots, but that stuff is more or less superficial, or it's just one part of a much bigger picture. Cyborg essentially has no good solo stories. This is where his biggest problem as a leading protagonist lies. I wouldn't even say it's his faceplate or whatever. It's primarily that he lacks any, any good stories. David Walker wasn't really good, in my opinion, and John Semper Jr. was terrible.
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 07-11-2019 at 05:23 PM.

  3. #663
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    This is an interesting point. I completely understand the desire for Cyborg to move on from stories about Man vs. Machine. However, I do not understand this desire for this god version of Cyborg as much. Or rather, I do think I understand it, but I believe the thinking behind it to be somewhat wrongheaded.
    Sincere questions:
    Are you a fan of this character?

    Based on your signature as well as your posts in here and from the John Stewart thread, why do you post here?

  4. #664
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    It depends on your definition of "godly". There's quite a difference between being moderately above street level and being able to duke it out with Superman so I think there's plenty of room to play with what Cyborg can do. I believe DC initially upped his power levels when he joined the League because they wanted him to fit the archetype the team has of being "gods among men". For the most part they have incredible abilities that defy our imaginations and I think DC wanted Cyborg to follow along those lines thematically. Additionally, they probably wanted to give him a more well defined role within the League in terms of combat and supplementary skills.

    Giving Cyborg arguably the best hacking skills and teleportation tech was DC's means of giving him relevance in their stories. Though we can argue about what that really did for his character, because being glorified tech support/taxi driver didn't exactly generate much interest in him. So you're right in saying power levels aren't the biggest issue Cyborg has, it's garbage, repetitive stories that don't expand his character and make him endearing to fans. I don't think Cyborg needs to have class 100 strength or full dimension hopping capabilities to be a great character, especially when you consider he's rather powerful with the upgrades he has already. My standard Cyborg power set would be:

    - Sonic Cannons
    - Emission of various other types of energies he can synthesize or absorb
    - Tech morphing/digitization (changing his shape and taking the properties of tech he comes into contact with)
    - Top-tier hacking
    - Localized teleportation
    - Physical stats on par with Aquaman (though more durable)

    That's pretty much where he's at now and to make it even more fun just be creative with it. That means writers have to create interesting rogues and put him in interesting situations that let him showcase his various skills. But if we're talking powers I'm more interested in Cyborg having them originate from something within his own mythos than pulling from the New Gods. A motherbox is cool, but all its capabilities could have been performed by some sort of tech his dad developed and mixing it with teleportation tech. Even if they wanted to connect his tech to something extraterrestrial, I think it would've been more lore-friendly to have portions of it based on an original alien species.

  5. #665
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    Sincere questions:
    Are you a fan of this character?

    Based on your signature as well as your posts in here and from the John Stewart thread, why do you post here?
    No, I'm not.

    When I interact with others here, I do so largely for my own educational purposes. This, however, does not invalidate anything I've posted. I still hold that Cyborg's problems aren't that DC doesn't portray him as a god. If you think otherwise, I believe you're mistaken. His problem is that DC doesn't portray him in his own good stories.
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 07-12-2019 at 01:22 AM.

  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    Sincere questions:
    Are you a fan of this character?

    Based on your signature as well as your posts in here and from the John Stewart thread, why do you post here?
    I don’t think it’s a case of being a fan of either one. It’s a case of what is the company doing to make either one interesting enough to get fans. Or someone curious enough to read a trade in the library or buy it in a buy 2 get 1 free deal at Barnes and nobles.

    Because right now that doom patrol series is selling cyborg but dc comic side is not taking advantage of it.

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    I don’t think it’s a case of being a fan of either one. It’s a case of what is the company doing to make either one interesting enough to get fans. Or someone curious enough to read a trade in the library or buy it in a buy 2 get 1 free deal at Barnes and nobles.

    Because right now that doom patrol series is selling cyborg but dc comic side is not taking advantage of it.
    Actually...you're exactly right!

    I don't really have anything against Cyborg or John Stewart. I don't want to dive too far into my personal criticisms of them in a thread like this, but since I was specifically asked, I think they're kind of lame based primarily on how they've been handled. Again, Cyborg has virtually no good stories. As for John Stewart, his are few and far between and they're all relatively very short, like around 20 issues. For characters that have been around 40 plus years, I find them...very lacking. This isn't inherently the characters' faults, I guess. While I have issues with both of them, I guess they aren't conceptually terrible ideas.

    For my own purposes, it can be useful for me to find out why people like them, why people put up with them despite endless grievances (which they seem to have), find what their grievances are and why they have them, why they always tolerate lack of support from the company that owns them, and so on, and why people like what they like about them. That said, I'm not entirely silent and neutral. I do have my own opinions on why a character might be good or bad, or why a character isn't working right, or connecting with audiences.
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 07-12-2019 at 01:43 PM.

  8. #668
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    This is an interesting point. I completely understand the desire for Cyborg to move on from stories about Man vs. Machine. However, I do not understand this desire for this god version of Cyborg as much. Or rather, I do think I understand it, but I believe the thinking behind it to be somewhat wrongheaded.

    Godly powers do not necessarily make for better stories. I seem to see this type of thing with fans of black characters, where they want to see some godly black man and get off to powers, like people jizzing over this invisible spectrum stuff for John Stewart when, in reality, it's just a whole lot of nothing and not even really a good idea. When you really get down to it, what these characters really need are good stories, not power level adjustments. It's true that powers can drive plots, but that stuff is more or less superficial, or it's just one part of a much bigger picture. Cyborg essentially has no good solo stories. This is where his biggest problem as a leading protagonist lies. I wouldn't even say it's his faceplate or whatever. It's primarily that he lacks any, any good stories. David Walker wasn't really good, in my opinion, and John Semper Jr. was terrible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I wouldn't listen to Darkseid. He's a villain. And no hero that isn't actually a diety (or a New God) should ever consider themselves a god. Gods are meant to be worshiped - and to mete out punishment to those who don't worship properly. It's a villain's role. Which, without wider context, would be what I would think Darkseid was trying to lead him to. When, in fact, Victor is human. Actually, Darkseid has historically been a worse god that than, since his goal was the anti-life equation, which would take away free will (at least when I read).

    I can't help it, I'm old school and prefer the non-connected-to-mother-box version of Cyborg. I don't want him to be all-powerful. It's dull. I don't want Bart of have scouts, Barry to have electrokensis, or Wally to be a speed-thief, either. Part of it is a lack of liking for change. But part of it is heroes becoming too powerful. Superman in the silver age was just too far. Not sure he still isn't, really (same with Diana), but certain powers are so baked in public consciousness now, they aren't going to be reduced. Kinda like all the Bats to be more human and less super-human, too, btw.

    Plus I deeply hate "it's all connected," especially where villains are retconned to have personal connections or control lives, etc when we saw them meet for the first time and it was not this at all. Like Ra's training Bruce or the Joker killing his parents (movie). The Talons wanting Dick, the Joker setting up Jason's life. Sinestro training Hal. Etc. It's a lazy way of adding drama to me. But I acknowledge a lot of people love that stuff.
    You are making entirely to much sense for this thread. Please Don't Stop.
    Idea's Open Discussion And Growth. Silencing Idea's Confirms Them To Be True In The Minds Of Those Who Hold Them. The Attempt Of Eliminating Idea's Proves You To Be A Fool.

  9. #669
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    So Vampire Savior/skyvolt2000, what's your interest in this thread about appreciating Cyborg?

  10. #670
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    So Vampire Savior/skyvolt2000, what's your interest in this thread about appreciating Cyborg?
    Perhaps you should ask yourself that question. It seems most of your posts are about complaining about how the character isn't a god rather than appreciating the character. If anything, I've actually done more defending of what the character actually has been for like 40 years.

    If you have points to make, you should probably just stick to those rather than questioning why people who may disagree with you are in the topic, when they are not violating any of the rules of the discussion.
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 07-12-2019 at 04:03 PM.

  11. #671
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Perhaps you should ask yourself that question. It seems most of your posts are about complaining about how the character isn't a god rather than appreciating the character. If anything, I've actually done more defending of what the character actually has been for like 40 years.

    If you have points to make, you should probably just stick to those rather than questioning why people who may disagree with you are in the topic, when they are not violating any of the rules of the discussion.
    I expected that reply of you asking me the same question. I'm a fan of Cyborg that wishes for advancement. My history proves that. I don't frequent threads of characters that I have no interest in. Can't imagine the energy it takes discuss characters I don't care for.

    If I have points to make...don't worry. I'll make them. I don't care if you disagree. There are other fans of Cyborg that I disagree with but we share our appreciation of Cyborg and our desires for the character.

    You've made yourself part of this discussion with views, based on your signature, that seemed like you didn't care for Cyborg. I asked to see if that was true. You answered. Done deal!

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    I expected that reply of you asking me the same question. I'm a fan of Cyborg that wishes for advancement. My history proves that. I don't frequent threads of characters that I have no interest in. Can't imagine the energy it takes discuss characters I don't care for.

    If I have points to make...don't worry. I'll make them. I don't care if you disagree. There are other fans of Cyborg that I disagree with but we share our appreciation of Cyborg and our desires for the character.

    You've made yourself part of this discussion with views, based on your signature, that seemed like you didn't care for Cyborg. I asked to see if that was true. You answered. Done deal!
    Well, it's good you anticipated that question, because it's the common response when replying to someone whose posts are mostly centered around complaints about the character and allusions of racism because DC doesn't handle the character the way you would like. If you really feel that way about the company, I would question why you would even be in this subforum.

    Also, there's a difference between being a fan of something, and having "no interest" in something. I never said I wasn't interested in Cyborg. It doesn't take much energy to post here. I'm not going out of my way at all.

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    So Vampire Savior/skyvolt2000, what's your interest in this thread about appreciating Cyborg?
    Unlike some I actually own the 2009 and the last two cyborg books.

    Someone who didn’t care wouldn’t own them.

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    No, I'm not.

    When I interact with others here, I do so largely for my own educational purposes. This, however, does not invalidate anything I've posted. I still hold that Cyborg's problems aren't that DC doesn't portray him as a god. If you think otherwise, I believe you're mistaken. His problem is that DC doesn't portray him in his own good stories.
    ...Which is the concern of EVERYONE who posts on this thread. We may not agree on how Vic should be portrayed (I prefer a more jovial version, thanks to the Teen Titans cartoons), but we can all agree on this one thing: Vic's stories are inconsistent to the point of not being sustainable for his own comic. And personally? Taking him out of the Titans sphere, just to make Vic a founding member of the latest iteration of the Justice League, was detrimental to him as a character, when he works better as a second generation (not second tier) character. Perhaps a happy medium would be for Vic to be the JL's liaison to the Titans? Hmmm...

  15. #675
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Well, it's good you anticipated that question, because it's the common response when replying to someone whose posts are mostly centered around complaints about the character and allusions of racism because DC doesn't handle the character the way you would like. If you really feel that way about the company, I would question why you would even be in this subforum.
    Ooh that's easy! Because I care about the character in spite of the company. Static is another example of loving a character in spite of what DC has done poorly with him.

    Also, there's a difference between being a fan of something, and having "no interest" in something. I never said I wasn't interested in Cyborg. It doesn't take much energy to post here. I'm not going out of my way at all.
    I'm glad to know you're interested in Ol' Vic! Now when I read your posts I'll know it's from a position of interest in the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Unlike some I actually own the 2009 and the last two cyborg books.

    Someone who didn’t care wouldn’t own them.
    Cool.

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