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  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    Yeah, I'm with you on the nanotechnology being a fantastic design. And technology inherently is something that stays modern and continues to develop.

    I'm really hoping that Cyborg's confessional line in Heroes in Crisis is foreshadowing bigger things to come.
    You do know King wrote that and it was the editors that decided who went into the book.

    That line could have been said by a variety of heroes like Superman's kid, Damian, Aqualad, Ronnie and so on.

    It means nothing.

  2. #317
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    You do know King wrote that and it was the editors that decided who went into the book.

    That line could have been said by a variety of heroes like Superman's kid, Damian, Aqualad, Ronnie and so on.

    It means nothing.
    Yeah, it was just me hoping.

  3. #318
    Fantastic Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I actually don't mind the space part. I mind that Cyborg could almost be replaced by any character because he lacks a narrative currently.


    At the end of the day how does solving all his problems with the tech and human make him a more interesting character? World already has an Iron Man.

    That type of stuff. But that's just me.
    I think what you're saying is true. If you repair all of Cyborg's problems, such as making him look completely human, you're essentially taking away what makes him Cyborg, and that is why DC doesn't let that happen. I don't believe it's a slap at black people, whether intentionally or not, it's just that's what makes that character what it is and his visual is a big part of that.

    Other fans are just wishing for him to be something he is not. And that's what I've often seen from people in this topic. I always see them brainstorming and wishing for these grand ideas for Cyborg that usually involve him being some kind of uber tech god who can turn into a regular looking human and grow his penis back, but that's just not who the character is and those fans are just pissing in the wind. Which is fine! Don't let me rain on your parade. We're all just here to have fun.

    If anything is a slap at black people, it's that there aren't many awesome black heroes that can stand on their own. But at the same time, I think that's something black people should strive to establish themselves. If you guys want an uber tech god black hero who is loved by beautiful women, well...go write that, then! Cyborg is not likely to give it to you in any satisfactory capacity.

    My issue is that if Cyborg is going to be this robot guy missing his face, his penis, and all of that, I dob't believe it is wise for him to be DC's primary black male superhero. If DC wants him to be effective as the primary black character, they need to fundamentally change the character, and DC has made it clear they will not do that.

    There are interesting characters that are man-monsters, like Swamp Thing and Ben Grimm, but in a universe with Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, The Flash, and so on at the forefront of it, black guys shouldn't have to try to relate with Cyborg the way others fantasize about being like Batman. And if Cyborg is the only black guy you're promoting at that level, the message you're sending is you want black guys to relate with the character like that. He was added to the League and pushed in large part to hook that black male demographic.

    Cyborg is just not a character to fill that kind of role, and I think it was a tremendous misstep on DC's part putting him in the Justice League alongside those characters (I know that won't be popular saying that here, but oh well) while mostly chucking John Stewart aside, who was the previous black guy that was most associated with the League, as if to say, "Here, you black guys don't need Green Lantern, because we (DC) don't like this version. Here's Cyborg instead. Shut up and be happy." That was the impression I got from that.

    Now, John Stewart has his own problems, being he's mostly a white version of Hal Jordan, and because he doesn't have much of his own foundation, he "steals" Hal Jordan's stuff to help him be interesting. So, that's like saying, "We like some of this Hal Jordan stuff, but I don't like that he's a white guy, so we'll take what makes him interesting and give it to John Stewart, who is black." That isn't good, either! And it's situations like this that just create this massive mess that is going on now.

    The real answer is DC just does not have a character that can sufficiently fill that spot.

    Cyborg is simply not who certain fans want him to be. Being a metal man is just fundamentally a part of his character. You can change that, but when millions of people know him as a metal man, you risk confusing and alienating the people who know him and like him that way.

    John Stewart has no real foundation of his own and is mostly just a character in Hal Jordan's overall story. You can change that, but it flies in the face of decades of published comics, and you will piss off an already defensive fanbase of Hal Jordan fans. And it ultimately isn't worth doing, because no matter how far John Stewart advances, the shadow of Hal Jordan will always haunt him.

    All the other black characters are just not developed or not interesting enough, or they, too, are in a white characters shadow. Oftentimes it's a mix of all three factors. I know that statement is partially subjective on my part, but there is a lot of truth in it.

    So, ultimately, it's just a mess which leads to a lot of frustrated fans.

  4. #319
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I think what you're saying is true. If you repair all of Cyborg's problems, such as making him look completely human, you're essentially taking away what makes him Cyborg, and that is why DC doesn't let that happen. I don't believe it's a slap at black people, whether intentionally or not, it's just that's what makes that character what it is and his visual is a big part of that.

    Other fans are just wishing for him to be something he is not. And that's what I've often seen from people in this topic. I always see them brainstorming and wishing for these grand ideas for Cyborg that usually involve him being some kind of uber tech god who can turn into a regular looking human and grow his penis back, but that's just not who the character is and those fans are just pissing in the wind. Which is fine! Don't let me rain on your parade. We're all just here to have fun.

    If anything is a slap at black people, it's that there aren't many awesome black heroes that can stand on their own. But at the same time, I think that's something black people should strive to establish themselves. If you guys want an uber tech god black hero who is loved by beautiful women, well...go write that, then! Cyborg is not likely to give it to you in any satisfactory capacity.

    My issue is that if Cyborg is going to be this robot guy missing his face, his penis, and all of that, I dob't believe it is wise for him to be DC's primary black male superhero. If DC wants him to be effective as the primary black character, they need to fundamentally change the character, and DC has made it clear they will not do that.

    There are interesting characters that are man-monsters, like Swamp Thing and Ben Grimm, but in a universe with Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, The Flash, and so on at the forefront of it, black guys shouldn't have to try to relate with Cyborg the way others fantasize about being like Batman. And if Cyborg is the only black guy you're promoting at that level, the message you're sending is you want black guys to relate with the character like that. He was added to the League and pushed in large part to hook that black male demographic.

    Cyborg is just not a character to fill that kind of role, and I think it was a tremendous misstep on DC's part putting him in the Justice League alongside those characters (I know that won't be popular saying that here, but oh well) while mostly chucking John Stewart aside, who was the previous black guy that was most associated with the League, as if to say, "Here, you black guys don't need Green Lantern, because we (DC) don't like this version. Here's Cyborg instead. Shut up and be happy." That was the impression I got from that.

    Now, John Stewart has his own problems, being he's mostly a white version of Hal Jordan, and because he doesn't have much of his own foundation, he "steals" Hal Jordan's stuff to help him be interesting. So, that's like saying, "We like some of this Hal Jordan stuff, but I don't like that he's a white guy, so we'll take what makes him interesting and give it to John Stewart, who is black." That isn't good, either! And it's situations like this that just create this massive mess that is going on now.

    The real answer is DC just does not have a character that can sufficiently fill that spot.

    Cyborg is simply not who certain fans want him to be. Being a metal man is just fundamentally a part of his character. You can change that, but when millions of people know him as a metal man, you risk confusing and alienating the people who know him and like him that way.

    John Stewart has no real foundation of his own and is mostly just a character in Hal Jordan's overall story. You can change that, but it flies in the face of decades of published comics, and you will piss off an already defensive fanbase of Hal Jordan fans. And it ultimately isn't worth doing, because no matter how far John Stewart advances, the shadow of Hal Jordan will always haunt him.

    All the other black characters are just not developed or not interesting enough, or they, too, are in a white characters shadow. Oftentimes it's a mix of all three factors. I know that statement is partially subjective on my part, but there is a lot of truth in it.

    So, ultimately, it's just a mess which leads to a lot of frustrated fans.
    I agree with just about everything you said here. I am a POC and I still thought this was a Incredible and truthful post and I applaud you.

    My only disagreements are...

    1) Cyborg's penis was intact when he was first created. Now it's pretty much agreed upon that now its not and it's screwed up. DC should at least do that much whether he gets a love interest or not.

    2) If DC really cared about have a strong Black Male lead they would squash whatever hang up they have with the creator of Black Lightning and pushed him. He is literally the only Black Male that could stand equal with the Original Members of the League on all levels. This isn't to slight Cyborg he can be a #1 character too but just in a different way.
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  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I agree with just about everything you said here. I am a POC and I still thought this was a Incredible and truthful post and I applaud you.

    My only disagreements are...

    1) Cyborg's penis was intact when he was first created. Now it's pretty much agreed upon that now its not and it's screwed up. DC should at least do that much whether he gets a love interest or not.

    2) If DC really cared about have a strong Black Male lead they would squash whatever hang up they have with the creator of Black Lightning and pushed him. He is literally the only Black Male that could stand equal with the Original Members of the League on all levels. This isn't to slight Cyborg he can be a #1 character too but just in a different way.
    I agree with what you're saying. Cyborg got worse when the New 52 started and that horrible Jim Lee design was unveiled. The best Cyborg in comics is the original Marv Wolfman Cyborg.

    About Black Lightning, he is DC's best candidate for a black male hero...I'm just of the mind that he's not that interesting, but that's just me.
    I've found I usually don't have any interest in these black heroes who are about cleaning up the streets and fighting gangs and crap, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It just doesn't do anything for me.

  6. #321
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    I agree with what you're saying. Cyborg got worse when the New 52 started and that horrible Jim Lee design was unveiled. The best Cyborg in comics is the original Marv Wolfman Cyborg.
    I'm not even an old head and I agree. But the original tends to always be better than whatever comes next.

    About Black Lightning, he is DC's best candidate for a black male hero...I'm just of the mind that he's not that interesting, but that's just me.
    I've found I usually don't have any interest in these black heroes who are about cleaning up the streets and fighting gangs and crap, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It just doesn't do anything for me.
    I can understand that . I honestly know the least about Black Lightning than I do about Cyborg, Stewart, Static, Steel, and others. Black Lightning comics are harder to get a hold of than others. But from what little I do know his character wasn't entirely on that narrative. His time in the Outsiders and even in his solo title he had a little bit more going on. I think the CW show is the one pushing that narrative more so then it actually being part of the character.

    But again I haven't read as much of him then I have of other characters. But he is on my list.
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  7. #322

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    I liked the DC You run by David Walker so I'd just continue with that take on Cyborg.

  8. #323
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    As an aside, how do you compare Cyborg's condition with the condition of Doom Patrol's Robotman (or, to a lesser degree, the villain Kryptonite Man)? It seems that TPTB wants Cyborg to be more like Robotman than someone who is "half-man, half-machine", whether intentional or not. IMO, in order to keep Cyborg unique, he should only have 50 percent of his body mechanical.

  9. #324
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    While we're on the subject of Cyborgs penis, I think that he should keep it. I think he should at-least have that.
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  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    About Black Lightning, he is DC's best candidate for a black male hero...I'm just of the mind that he's not that interesting, but that's just me.
    I've found I usually don't have any interest in these black heroes who are about cleaning up the streets and fighting gangs and crap, but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It just doesn't do anything for me.
    Yes this is then main thing that hinders Black Lightning and black heroes in general. When you read Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Spider Man Etc they are fighting and doing things out of this world yet in the black heroes comics theyíre fighting gang bangers and protecting the hood. Itís so unimaginative thatís why those characters donít garner long term interest, should Black Lighting have been pushed over Cyborg it would received a much more polarizing reaction because the character truly brings nothing mythological to the table.

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    Yes this is then main thing that hinders Black Lightning and black heroes in general. When you read Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Spider Man Etc they are fighting and doing things out of this world yet in the black heroes comics theyíre fighting gang bangers and protecting the hood. Itís so unimaginative thatís why those characters donít garner long term interest, should Black Lighting have been pushed over Cyborg it would received a much more polarizing reaction because the character truly brings nothing mythological to the table.
    Didn't stop Luke Cage and Black Lightning's t.v. shows from being record breaking hits. Luke's show nearly crashed the Netflix service.

    Cyborg, meanwhile, fought other worldly threats in the JL movie and that didn't really help him.

  12. #327
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    This is a Cyborg Appreciation thread no need to pit the two against each other to heavily.

    However, I will say the very nature of Black Lightning powerset makes him "Mythical" , I mean how could it not be.

    But not for nothing Cyborg can eventually claw his way to the top. It's just going to take someone who actually wants to sit down and think something all the way through on how to get him there. Someone who really cares deeply and is willing to put the work in. Until that day happens we will get what we get from the character.
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  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    Yes this is then main thing that hinders Black Lightning and black heroes in general. When you read Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Spider Man Etc they are fighting and doing things out of this world yet in the black heroes comics they’re fighting gang bangers and protecting the hood. It’s so unimaginative that’s why those characters don’t garner long term interest, should Black Lighting have been pushed over Cyborg it would received a much more polarizing reaction because the character truly brings nothing mythological to the table.
    Because it's ACCEPTABLE for Hal, Clark and those guys to have those stories.
    Because someone finds USAGE for those guys.
    They have had solos and roles on teams and roles in EVENTS.

    Black heroes for the most part are held hostage by editors and those who think they can ONLY deal with the hood or be background fodder in events (as we saw with Vixen, Hotspot & Tattoman in HIC).
    Let me quote a black writer when she pitched a story about a black skateboarder-her own publishers asked her "do black folks REALLY do that?" The lack of imagination with black characters is an issue.
    Let me recommend 3 books at Image right now-Prodigy (future Netflix show), Bitter Root (future movie) and Excellence. Along with After Shock's Relay. All star black males as leads.
    Honorable mention Titans' Rivers of London and the novel Arcade & The Triple Token by Rashad Jennings.

    Prodigy could EASILY be about Cyborg or Michael Holt.
    Bitter Root could EASILY about Cyborg, Vixen, Duke, Bumblebee, Amanda Waller and I can not think of his name but he was a black guy in Night Force and maybe Primal Force.
    Excellence could be more Duke than Cyborg.
    Relay-Cyborg with some rewriting.
    The point is they were green lighted because folks THOUGHT outside the box.

    We get stick with man versus machine with Cyborg but not Robotman because of folks not thinking outside the box.

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Because it's ACCEPTABLE for Hal, Clark and those guys to have those stories.
    Because someone finds USAGE for those guys.
    They have had solos and roles on teams and roles in EVENTS.

    Black heroes for the most part are held hostage by editors and those who think they can ONLY deal with the hood or be background fodder in events (as we saw with Vixen, Hotspot & Tattoman in HIC).
    Let me quote a black writer when she pitched a story about a black skateboarder-her own publishers asked her "do black folks REALLY do that?" The lack of imagination with black characters is an issue.
    Let me recommend 3 books at Image right now-Prodigy (future Netflix show), Bitter Root (future movie) and Excellence. Along with After Shock's Relay. All star black males as leads.
    Honorable mention Titans' Rivers of London and the novel Arcade & The Triple Token by Rashad Jennings.

    Prodigy could EASILY be about Cyborg or Michael Holt.
    Bitter Root could EASILY about Cyborg, Vixen, Duke, Bumblebee, Amanda Waller and I can not think of his name but he was a black guy in Night Force and maybe Primal Force.
    Excellence could be more Duke than Cyborg.
    Relay-Cyborg with some rewriting.
    The point is they were green lighted because folks THOUGHT outside the box.

    We get stick with man versus machine with Cyborg but not Robotman because of folks not thinking outside the box.
    Thanks for reminding me about Excellence, and I'm going to try out Relay as well.
    Reading list:
    Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel)
    Ironheart (Marvel)
    Champions (Marvel)
    Jessica Jones: Purple Daughter (Marvel)
    Runaways (Marvel)
    Young Justice (DC)
    Naomi (DC)
    Justice League Odyssey (DC)
    My Hero Academia (VIZ)
    Bitter Root (Image)
    Quincredible (Lionforge)
    Buffy the Vampire Slayer Reboot (BOOM!)

  15. #330
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    Yes this is then main thing that hinders Black Lightning and black heroes in general. When you read Batman, Superman, Iron Man, Spider Man Etc they are fighting and doing things out of this world yet in the black heroes comics they’re fighting gang bangers and protecting the hood. It’s so unimaginative that’s why those characters don’t garner long term interest, should Black Lighting have been pushed over Cyborg it would received a much more polarizing reaction because the character truly brings nothing mythological to the table.
    According to Bryan Hill (writer of Batman and the Outsiders) this issue is going to be addressed. It seems like Black Lightning is about to be unlocked. Thankfully. I've grown weary of the neighborhood watch black heroes, too.

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