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  1. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    If you look at the Justice League Animated Series John Stewart had multiple love interest which included Katma Tui, Vixen And Hawkgirl he got more women than anybody in the show.
    John Stewart was pretty fascinating on that show because he dodged so many tropes usually put on black guys in genre fiction. That was likely due to Ben Tucker and McDuffie being in such influential positions, and Bruce Timm never struck me as tone deaf about stuff like that.

    I'd probably bring the Jinx relationship from the toons over into the comics. That would make Cyborg more interesting in the comics, and she is probably Cyborg's best love interest in any medium, in my opinion. Cyborg isn't really an idealized hero, so it actually fits well that his girlfriend would be some weird evil girl. The toons, of course, put a silly spin on the whole thing, but a clever writer could get a lot of mileage out of that.


  2. #287
    Ultimate Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I'm not a big fan of her's but would Jessica Cruz and Cyborg make an interesting couple? I don't think the two of them ever really have that many scenes together (alone) despite them being on two different teams together.
    I can see that. It's an interracial pairing between a black male and a Hispanic female, which I'm not sure there is in comics currently, and they both have history with depression. Jessica's personal struggles are well documented and if DC won't ever allow Cyborg to move on from being turned into a machine, then he can at least find someone with her own struggles to confide in.

  3. #288
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Here's the thing to realize:
    The leadership in DC's comic book division are old "establishment" men. They still see man mixed with machine as the future. The same stale thinking of the 80's drenched in nostalgia.

    It's now 2019. We no longer look to machines. We look to technology. Vic at this point should be a blend of man and technology. It shouldn't even be that obvious that he's a techno-organic being. Most of the tech we use today isn't even seen, yet with this being a visual medium it's necessary to show something tech related on Vic. Still no reason that he can't be appealing.

    Seems the upgrade is needed in DC's offices.
    Last edited by Iconic; 05-30-2019 at 07:33 PM.

  4. #289
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    The easiest way of breaking a character and make him/her unusable is by making them something they are not or forcing them into a role they don't fit in.

    Yes, I do think many people currently working at DC probably shouldn't be there. (Same for Marvel) But I also think that making Vic purely a techno-organic being is a bad call. Beyond that I think solely being worried about what Vic can do besides who he is and what his character motivation are is what largely went wrong with the character in the first place.

    As soon as the New 52 rolled out he became a laundry list feats. Most of which revolved around him being less human. Here we are years later and the character still can't sell a solo title. Vic's problems will not be solved with an upgrade as if he is some buggy iPhone.

    If people really want to love Vic again it's by given him less and bring him back to his roots to grow the character from there. Read the OG titan stuff when he first came out onward. The depth of character, his personality, and his struggle is what made the character shine. Everything else was barely considered.
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  5. #290
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    I am so sick of "the struggle". Been there. Done that ad nauseum. Their highest profile black hero and we've got to continue to deal with the struggle? Advance the concept already.

    Superman only leapt tall buildings and there was a time he had a lot less abilities. Things changed.

    Batman wore purple gloves and used to be a lot less cooler. Things changed.

    Green Lantern was weak against the color yellow and used to be far more limited. Things changed.

    These characters are appealing. People want to be them. They feel positive. Why does Vic need to be left in the past. His character is being sold as a technologically advanced being. Fourth World technology. Why does he come off so low-tech then? Why can't he advance as the others have?
    Last edited by Iconic; 05-30-2019 at 08:40 PM.

  6. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I'm not a big fan of her's but would Jessica Cruz and Cyborg make an interesting couple? I don't think the two of them ever really have that many scenes together (alone) despite them being on two different teams together.
    Havent they both been pretty much written out of Snyder's Justice League? Like there weren't even no spoilers:
    future alternate versions of them
    end of spoilers in the latest issues like there were the other leaguers. I love John but doesn't it seem weird they traded out the black character and the green lantern for one that happens to be both? If they claim is for continuity with JLO then what about the other characters? They are keeping their own stories in the title books and other ensembles. Would have been nice to have John and Victor being able to relate to each other. I'm more than sure John would have had plenty of wisdom to pass on to him.

  7. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    I am so sick of "the struggle". Been there. Done that ad nauseum. Their highest profile black hero and we've got to continue to deal with the struggle? Advance the concept already.

    Superman only leapt tall buildings and there was a time he had a lot less abilities. Things changed.

    Batman wore purple gloves and used to be a lot less cooler. Things changed.

    Green Lantern was weak against the color yellow and used to be far more limited. Things changed.

    These characters are appealing. People want to be them. They feel positive. Why does Vic need to be left in the past. His character is being sold as a technologically advanced being. Fourth World technology. Why does he come off so low-tech then? Why can't he advance as the others have?
    The Doom Patrol version of Victor has none of those things and has been positively received. There's more than one way to make characters appealing.

  8. #293
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    Night Begins to Shine is the one thing, the ONE THING, that Cyborg has actually done that I thought was totally awesome and blew my mind! If Cyborg was like this all the time, and doing things like this with comparable levels of awesome, I really think he'd be my favorite DC character. When I saw that I couldn't believe how great it was.


  9. #294
    Hey Baby--Wha's Happ'nin? HandofPrometheus's Avatar
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    It's sad because I don't think the art with the couple's was intentional, it's just that DC never utilized Cyborg' s life outside of crime fighting. Wolfman till this day was the only one interested enough to give Cyborg a life. I love him with Sarah. He really got to open up with her and they were just so perfect.
    NTT041-001 - Copy.jpg

  10. #295
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    I am so sick of "the struggle". Been there. Done that ad nauseum. Their highest profile black hero and we've got to continue to deal with the struggle? Advance the concept already.

    Superman only leapt tall buildings and there was a time he had a lot less abilities. Things changed.

    Batman wore purple gloves and used to be a lot less cooler. Things changed.

    Green Lantern was weak against the color yellow and used to be far more limited. Things changed.

    These characters are appealing. People want to be them. They feel positive. Why does Vic need to be left in the past. His character is being sold as a technologically advanced being. Fourth World technology. Why does he come off so low-tech then? Why can't he advance as the others have?
    Everything you listed is not essential to who those characters are. In fact everything listed are entirely superficial to those characters narrative. Cyborg being HALF man and HALF machine is critical to the core of the characters story. If a writer falls to far on either side of the fence Cyborg just becomes Joe Schmo that no one has a reason to care about. The very nature of his concept is and always will have a bit of struggle to it. If people aren't interested in that then they aren't really interested in who Cyborg is as a character and should seek out others characters to follow, instead of saying Cyborg needs to change for them.

    Now Yes, there are things DC is currently choosing to do to the character that fly in the face of what I said. However, look how unsuccessful they have been with the character trying the very thing you are suggesting here. Cyborg shouldn't be the pinnacle of technology but he should have tech that he can work with, to potentially advance gradually. The HALF man aspect of him should always be something of a road block for him to going full Robot or becoming this absurdity of robot parts.

    Besides, making him some Uber death machine would just be boring and poor story telling. Which his stint in the Justice League and his two solo's have already proven. DC gave Cyborg so many bells and whistles to make him the perfect Deus Ex Machina and it only made him less appealing and hard to relate to.

    No offense meant but a common issue with these forums is a lot of people only think in terms of Video game stats. Water beats fire but fire beats grass types of stuff.Comic Book Superheroes aren't poke'mon. They should be characters with easily distinguishable innate narratives first, have some over the top ability or power second, and what beats who powers/upgrades should be like the 100th thing on the list to be concern about. Power does not equal or guarantee good story telling. Power does not make you instantly popular. Power just means you have power, the end.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-31-2019 at 05:26 AM.
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  11. #296
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The Doom Patrol version of Victor has none of those things and has been positively received. There's more than one way to make characters appealing.
    Yes, Doom Patrol Cyborg was positively received. It just so happens that his look was based on the just as positively received and favored Ivan Reis redesign. So he actually did have every one of those things I described.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    Everything you listed is not essential to who those characters are. In fact everything listed are entirely superficial to those characters narrative. Cyborg being HALF man and HALF machine is critical to the core of the characters story. If a writer falls to far on either side of the fence Cyborg just becomes Joe Schmo that no one has a reason to care about. The very nature of his concept is and always will have a bit of struggle to it. If people aren't interested in that then they aren't really interested in who Cyborg is as a character and should seek out others characters to follow, instead of saying Cyborg needs to change for them.

    Now Yes, there are things DC is currently choosing to do to the character that fly in the face of what I said. However, look how unsuccessful they have been with the character trying the very thing you are suggesting here. Cyborg shouldn't be the pinnacle of technology but he should have tech that he can work with, to potentially advance gradually. The HALF man aspect of him should always be something of a road block for him to going full Robot or becoming this absurdity of robot parts.

    Besides, making him some Uber death machine would just be boring and poor story telling. Which his stint in the Justice League and his two solo's have already proven. DC gave Cyborg so many bells and whistles to make him the perfect Deus Ex Machina and it only made him less appealing and hard to relate to.

    No offense meant but a common issue with these forums is a lot of people only think in terms of Video game stats. Water beats fire but fire beats grass types of stuff.Comic Book Superheroes aren't poke'mon. They should be characters with easily distinguishable innate narratives first, have some over the top ability or power second, and what beats who powers/upgrades should be like the 100th thing on the list to be concern about. Power does not equal or guarantee good story telling. Power does not make you instantly popular. Power just means you have power, the end.
    Then why add those advancements to those 3 characters if they're non-essential in the first place?

    Why must Superman be the most powerful? Pretty much indestructible?

    Why must Batman be the best at everything? He goes from being the world's greatest detective to now the top 3 smartest in the world. Why? He wasn't always so dark. Why now?

    Why must Hal Jordan have the greatest willpower? Why must he be the greatest of all Lanterns?

    They weren't all those things when they started but some way, some how they decided to advance those characters. Times changed and as such, so did the characters. The characters started to mature and make more sense within the world that we're living in. The same case can be made for Cyborg.

    No one is asking for video game stats or feats here. He's getting that already. This is only about his looks being so dated and monstrous all too often. Justice League Odyssey alone puts to bed that argument on feats. He's not getting hacked and debugged like some old desktop PC anymore.

    Also, his book didn't suffer because of upgrades. They suffered from stale writing about "man vs machine". Most are just tired of the "what am I?" trash he gets saddled with non stop in addition to the only robot villains and would appreciate moving his story forward. Technology doesn't stay stagnant and neither should Vic. It only makes sense based on what DC tells us he is.

    Bottom line: We all want growth in our characters.
    Last edited by Iconic; 05-31-2019 at 07:26 AM.

  12. #297
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    Yes, Doom Patrol Cyborg was positively received. It just so happens that his look was based on the just as positively received and favored Ivan Reis redesign. So he actually did have every one of those things I described.
    His design and overall character is closer to his original appearance then anything else.



    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post

    Then why add those advancements to those 3 characters if they're non-essential in the first place?

    Why must Superman be the most powerful? Pretty much indestructible?

    Why must Batman be the best at everything? He goes from being the world's greatest detective to now the top 3 smartest in the world. Why? He wasn't always so dark. Why now?

    Why must Hal Jordan have the greatest willpower? Why must he be the greatest of all Lanterns?

    They weren't all those things when they started but some way, some how they decided to advance those characters. Times changed and as such, so did the characters. The characters started to mature and make more sense within the world that we're living in. The same case can be made for Cyborg.

    No one is asking for video game stats or feats here. He's getting that already. This is only about his looks being so dated and monstrous all too often. Justice League Odyssey alone puts to bed that argument on feats. He's not getting hacked and debugged like some old desktop PC anymore.

    Also, his book didn't suffer because of upgrades. They suffered from stale writing about "man vs machine". Most are just tired of the "what am I?" trash he gets saddled with non stop in addition to the only robot villains and would appreciate moving his story forward. Technology doesn't stay stagnant and neither should Vic. It only makes sense based on what DC tells us he is.
    Not to slight you just trying to help. But you are arguing off of a faulty stance. Your main driving point is if one character has something another character must have or should be able to get the same thing or treatment. It is similar to saying Humans have two long legs and Ostriches have two long legs. Therefore, Humans should run as fast as ostrich's. See the mistake there in that line on 1+1= what I want it to be dialogue? It doesn't take into account what make up makes an Ostrich and Ostrich and visa versa what makes a human a human.

    But to dig into your actual argument...none of things you mentioned contradict who the character is as a character. So far you are list "WOW" traits and possibly showing that you may not fully understand those characters narrative/story points yourself. No one is saying that Cyborg can't have "Wow" traits. I'm saying that if traits being added or taken way Stomp on who the character is as character then that character is just being set up for eventual and currently present failure.

    I think we agree that Cyborg shouldn't just be a robot and he should have the basics of what makes a man a man connected to him . Young Justice version and the original accomplished both. JLO version leaves you in the seat of if he can even get out of all that metal. On the other end having him be mostly a nano-bot, as you would like, eliminates the characters human side and the conflict that drives the character. Without conflict you have a Marry Sue. When you have a Marry Sue you have an eventual dead in the water character or book. Plays out that way every single time.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-31-2019 at 07:50 AM.
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  13. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    Yes, Doom Patrol Cyborg was positively received. It just so happens that his look was based on the just as positively received and favored Ivan Reis redesign. So he actually did have every one of those things I described.



    Then why add those advancements to those 3 characters if they're non-essential in the first place?

    Why must Superman be the most powerful? Pretty much indestructible?

    Why must Batman be the best at everything? He goes from being the world's greatest detective to now the top 3 smartest in the world. Why? He wasn't always so dark. Why now?

    Why must Hal Jordan have the greatest willpower? Why must he be the greatest of all Lanterns?

    They weren't all those things when they started but some way, some how they decided to advance those characters. Times changed and as such, so did the characters. The characters started to mature and make more sense within the world that we're living in. The same case can be made for Cyborg.

    No one is asking for video game stats or feats here. He's getting that already. This is only about his looks being so dated and monstrous all too often. Justice League Odyssey alone puts to bed that argument on feats. He's not getting hacked and debugged like some old desktop PC anymore.

    Also, his book didn't suffer because of upgrades. They suffered from stale writing about "man vs machine". Most are just tired of the "what am I?" trash he gets saddled with non stop in addition to the only robot villains and would appreciate moving his story forward. Technology doesn't stay stagnant and neither should Vic. It only makes sense based on what DC tells us he is.

    Bottom line: We all want growth in our characters.
    The struggles of Cyborg's book were less about man vs machine(which is overused by writers)and more about the awful villains and supporting cast those writers have him.

  14. #299
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    His design and overall character is closer to his original appearance then anything else.





    Not to slight you just trying to help. But you are arguing off of a faulty stance. Your main driving point is if one character has something another character must have or should be able to get the same thing or treatment. It is similar to saying Humans have two long legs and Ostriches have two long legs. Therefore, Humans should run as fast as ostrich's. See the mistake there in that line on 1+1= what I want it to be dialogue? It doesn't take into account what make up makes an Ostrich and Ostrich and visa versa what makes a human a human.

    But to dig into your actual argument...none of things you mentioned contradict who the character is as a character. So far you are list "WOW" traits and possibly showing that you may not fully understand those characters narrative/story points yourself. No one is saying that Cyborg can't have "Wow" traits. I'm saying that if traits being added or taken way Stomp on who the character is as character then that character is just being set up for eventual and currently present failure.

    I think we agree that Cyborg shouldn't just be a robot and he should have the basics of what makes a man a man connected to him . Young Justice version and the original accomplished both. JLO version leaves you in the seat of if he can even get out of all that metal. On the other end having him be mostly a nano-bot, as you would like, eliminates the characters human side and the conflict that drives the character. Without conflict you have a Marry Sue. When you have a Marry Sue you have an eventual dead in the water character or book. Plays out that way every single time.
    No. His design is based on the DC You Ivan Reis design. He just wears a track suit with it. Nothing like the picture you showed.

    I did not list "wow" traits for Superman, Batman & Green Lantern. I listed advancements that DC added to further enrich the characters. Things that also got me to enjoy the characters more. What is hard to enjoy is a constant struggle of a black hero in a comic book who can never seem to move forward. Who can only seem to bond with young boys like Billy Batson and Beast Boy. Who has mostly stayed tucked away like a troll over his appearance. Enough.

    Where's the joy in reading Cyborg? No one who cares about that character wants to read about him constantly questioning his humanity. He's black! Can none of those people in charge see that they might want to adjust that viewpoint in 2019? He's your highest profile character of color and he's treated as a Quasimodo. Your one black hero in the spotlight is relegated to a perpetual struggle and you can't see why his comic doesn't do better. Who wants to read that story over and over.

    I was never more excited for Cyborg than when the DC You design debuted. Excellent look and advancements hurt by a tired recycled story of whether this black man was even human.

    Odyssey is the best Cyborg has been shown in comics with regards to his personal story. No questioning. Just heroing.
    Last edited by Iconic; 06-01-2019 at 03:37 AM. Reason: Mistakenly typed New 52 instead of DC You

  15. #300
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    No. His design is based on the New 52 Ivan Reis design. He just wears a track suit with it. Nothing like the picture you showed.
    What exactly do you think makes it Ivan Reis design?

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    I did not list "wow" traits for Superman, Batman & Green Lantern. I listed advancements that DC added to further enrich the characters. Things that also got me to enjoy the characters more. What is hard to enjoy is a constant struggle of a black hero in a comic book who can never seem to move forward. Who can only seem to bond with young boys like Billy Batson and Beast Boy. Who has mostly stayed tucked away like a troll over his appearance. Enough.

    Where's the joy in reading Cyborg? No one who cares about that character wants to read about him constantly questioning his humanity. He's black! Can none of those people in charge see that they might want to adjust that viewpoint in 2019? He's your highest profile character of color and he's treated as a Quasimodo. Your one black hero in the spotlight is relegated to a perpetual struggle and you can't see why his comic doesn't do better. Who wants to read that story over and over.

    I was never more excited for Cyborg than when the New 52 design debuted. Excellent look and advancements hurt by a tired recycled story of whether this black man was even human.

    Odyssey is the best Cyborg has been shown in comics with regards to his personal story. No questioning. Just heroing.
    Nah Iconic. In the last post you placed "Wow" traits of what the characters can DO not who characters ARE. There is a difference. Your list shows abilities not on-going character progression or struggle. Abilities progression are video game stats, which I said earlier.

    You are also bringing in other things that has nothing to do with the current topic. Cyborgs POWERS has nothing to do with who he ASSOCIATES with. That has more to do with a lack of direction due to DC taking away many of what makes the character who he is and more importantly the primary core trait that defines the character to give him direction. There different arguments.

    Being defined as black will do the character no favors either. Black is what he is not who he is. I'm also not suggesting he be treated like Quasimodo. The ideal/perfect Cyborg should accept who he is begrudgingly. But he should also struggle sometimes with the fact that he is handicapped, struggle with the fact that his handicap prevents him from living his dream of being a pro- athlete, and struggle with the idea that being a superhero is not something he wanted originally but he does his best out of sense of duty. Those things are what make Cyborg a hero and a solid character. All of it is tied into his handicap. As soon as his handicap becomes not a handicap he becomes just another character without a proper motivation to exist.

    Odyssey is a momentary thing. Eventually, there will come a point where that will get old and it will happen relatively fast. Why? Who or what is that version of Cyborg when he isn't fighting Space Gods and Monsters. Why, is that "character" doing what he is doing? Because he is a head on a robot body doesn't really make a good premise for a solo venture. So while you're arguing Cyborg should and is the premiere black superhero of the DC Universe you are also unknowingly pushing the character into a box of having no real value out of battle or out of a team setting.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 05-31-2019 at 09:38 AM.
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