BOOYAH!! Cyborg Appreciation Thread '19

[DragonsChi]

The demographics of the creators definitely does affect the characters of color at DC (and comics as a whole), however in regards to Cyborg specifically, writers being passionate about the character isn't always the issue. A creator can be as passionate as can be but if editorial always bottle-necks his progress it doesn't matter. I mean, look at what happen with Walker and him leaving because they didn't see why he was doing what he was doing and rather a "safer" plot point. We complain about Cyborg's appearance being dehumanizing but remember DC higher ups are the ones who decide the references that the artist have to use and they are ones who want him to be 92% metal bits. Tying back to the issue of demographics, it's very possible that because a lot of these people aren't black or people of color, they don't pay too much mind to the concerns of people who see a black face and feel discouraged by the weak characterization because they don't or can't relate.

Eh, Walkers run was void of true characterization. He had cool moments and he made cyborg cool inspector gadget. But outside of that he was just some generic character. None of Cyborg's personality was in that book.

That's why even Grid, who could have been his perfect nemesis, the Machine who wants to feel and will go to any length to feel something, anything, hasn't been used quite well since his introduction. He's a one trick pony and not that different from the rest of Cyborg's foes, if all he fights is tech or mechanical enemies. Batman doesn't fight just gangsters or Clown Princes of Crime, he has a very wide and varied rogue gallery. Each and every side-character in Cyborg runs seems to be either "human repeating that he is totally human" or "tech based vilain doing tech based things".

That's not great for the character, and his mostly monstrous body right now doesn't help him move beyond that, like every successful hero moved from his/her roots to become something more.

I agree with this. Cyborg lacked unique villains when he had a solo. They over played one angle of the character and missed the other half with it. Funny enough Walker did a lot of the tech villains too.

[lemonpeace]

Eh, Walkers run was void of true characterization. He had cool moments and he made cyborg cool inspector gadget. But outside of that he was just some generic character. None of Cyborg's personality was in that book.



I agree with this. Cyborg lacked unique villains when he had a solo. They over played one angle of the character and missed the other half with it. Funny enough Walker did a lot of the tech villains too.

I have to disagree, I believe there were definitely solid moments of humanity from Vic and again, it was cut short when Walker wanted to explore more of that humanity (from what I read, specifically from the perspective of Vic as a black man and how that informs his journey). Maybe it would've ended up being disappointing or lackluster BUT you can't say he wasn't passionate about the character and editorial stepping in didn't derail the momentum he was trying to build.

[DragonsChi]

I have to disagree, I believe there were definitely solid moments of humanity from Vic and again, it was cut short when Walker wanted to explore more of that humanity (from what I read, specifically from the perspective of Vic as a black man and how that informs his journey). Maybe it would've ended up being disappointing or lackluster BUT you can't say he wasn't passionate about the character and editorial stepping in didn't derail the momentum he was trying to build.

It was story that could have been done with Vic sure. But the characterization was off. It was another story that any Black Male character could have been placed in. It was "Generic Black Guy Behind Door Number One" type deal.

I should say that Walker is not fully to blame since the New 52 pretty much wiped Vic of pretty much of everything that made him who he is. But if we are talking why that book failed or why Vic is not working ...the argument still stands.

[skyvolt2000]

The demographics of the creators definitely does affect the characters of color at DC (and comics as a whole), however in regards to Cyborg specifically, writers being passionate about the character isn't always the issue. A creator can be as passionate as can be but if editorial always bottle-necks his progress it doesn't matter. I mean, look at what happen with Walker and him leaving because they didn't see why he was doing what he was doing and rather a "safer" plot point. We complain about Cyborg's appearance being dehumanizing but remember DC higher ups are the ones who decide the references that the artist have to use and they are ones who want him to be 92% metal bits. Tying back to the issue of demographics, it's very possible that because a lot of these people aren't black or people of color, they don't pay too much mind to the concerns of people who see a black face and feel discouraged by the weak characterization because they don't or can't relate.

The editor of Cyborg's books was a black guy.

I think the issue at DC is they have been allowed to escape with limited characterization of POC for way too long. Some fared better than others only to have it thrown away.
See John Stewart, Steel & Cassandra Cain. Others have been a battle to move beyond limited characterization like Cyborg.

It can't be by accident the majority of POC (at least with the black ones) have nothing in the level of development of others.

[skyvolt2000]

I have to disagree, I believe there were definitely solid moments of humanity from Vic and again, it was cut short when Walker wanted to explore more of that humanity (from what I read, specifically from the perspective of Vic as a black man and how that informs his journey). Maybe it would've ended up being disappointing or lackluster BUT you can't say he wasn't passionate about the character and editorial stepping in didn't derail the momentum he was trying to build.

Yes Walker did say that. While Sempter did it-you saw a scene where Cyborg interacted with cops. He talked the "bad" cop harassing them to back off as they were not doing anything wrong.

[lemonpeace]

It was story that could have been done with Vic sure. But the characterization was off. It was another story that any Black Male character could have been placed in. It was "Generic Black Guy Behind Door Number One" type deal.

I should say that Walker is not fully to blame since the New 52 pretty much wiped Vic of pretty much of everything that made him who he is. But if we are talking why that book failed or why Vic is not working ...the argument still stands.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I believe if Walker had been given the chance to continue to build on the momentum he was trying to get going, Cyborg would have been a stronger, better character for it. I don't think any black male character could've been put in that story because it was more focused on Cyborg's humanity, coming to terms with his cybernetics, and reconciling with his father; I don't think he touched on Cyborg's "blackness" (so to speak) to say any black male character exclusively could be plugged in in his place. Maybe more like any cybernetic character could be plugged and played.

The editor of Cyborg's books was a black guy.

I think the issue at DC is they have been allowed to escape with limited characterization of POC for way too long. Some fared better than others only to have it thrown away.
See John Stewart, Steel & Cassandra Cain. Others have been a battle to move beyond limited characterization like Cyborg.

It can't be by accident the majority of POC (at least with the black ones) have nothing in the level of development of others.

I should've done a better job of separating my points, I was speaking about demographics in editorial and then Cyborg's specific problems with his characterization. While I didn't know his editor was black, I don't think that negates or excuses the fact that for the most part the demographic of the talent/shot-callers behind the scenes aren't poc and the problems in characterization that proposes. In fact, that makes the choice to want to avoid Walker's direction even more perplexing to me (Edit) especially considering they let Semper touch on it in his short time on the title a year or two later.

[DragonsChi]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, I believe if Walker had been given the chance to continue to build on the momentum he was trying to get going, Cyborg would have been a stronger, better character for it. I don't think any black male character could've been put in that story because it was more focused on Cyborg's humanity, coming to terms with his cybernetics, and reconciling with his father; I don't think he touched on Cyborg's "blackness" (so to speak) to say any black male character exclusively could be plugged in in his place. Maybe more like any cybernetic character could be plugged and played.

Hmmm.... I will try to re-read. I read the the OG titians all the way through and then hopped into the Cyborg/Nightwing comics (still working on a lot of the Nightwing stuff). My judgement may be off since the new stuff seems to pale in-comparison to a lot of the old stuff across the board when it comes to Super Hero stuff. Maybe some time away from it and "fresh" eyes will help.

But I doubt I will feel different about it.

[lemonpeace]

Hmmm.... I will try to re-read. I read the the OG titians all the way through and then hopped into the Cyborg/Nightwing comics (still working on a lot of the Nightwing stuff). My judgement may be off since the new stuff seems to pale in-comparison to a lot of the old stuff across the board when it comes to Super Hero stuff. Maybe some time away from it and "fresh" eyes will help.

But I doubt I will feel different about it.

I haven't read much if any of Cyborg's older stuff but I would imagine it is probably better in many respect simply because he has more to work with and had a chance to progress organically due to years of growth and experimentation with the character. Is it true that they at one point did have Cyborg restore his body and keep his powers but he was rolled-back back then too?

[Agent Z]

Eh, Walkers run was void of true characterization. He had cool moments and he made cyborg cool inspector gadget. But outside of that he was just some generic character. None of Cyborg's personality was in that book.



I agree with this. Cyborg lacked unique villains when he had a solo. They over played one angle of the character and missed the other half with it. Funny enough Walker did a lot of the tech villains too.

A rogues gallery composed of robots or other cyborgs is rather unique among superheroes. What was needed was developed and varied characterization.

[DragonsChi]

I haven't read much if any of Cyborg's older stuff but I would imagine it is probably better in many respect simply because he has more to work with and had a chance to progress organically due to years of growth and experimentation with the character. Is it true that they at one point did have Cyborg restore his body and keep his powers but he was rolled-back back then too?

Which time?

Both times it be a technically no, since one time was artificial skin and his body rejected the process.(He didn't have his Superhero tech though)

The Second time it was alien tech that only made him look human. Effectively making him really all machine who can take a human appearance. But the reader never really saw him "live" a human life because quickly after it happen he was taken out of the book. When we saw him again the alien tech got stuck in an in between phase of his "standard" appearance. Which was a combination of his half man and half machine. But he was still all tech only looking partially human. Ergo no male parts.

A rogues gallery composed of robots or other cyborgs is rather unique among superheroes. What was needed was developed and varied characterization.

There was to many/to much of that in my opinion. The combination of dealing with Cyborg tech and villain tech got old fast. Grid was cool but they should have stopped there, moved to a villain with different powers then move back to that other tech crisis. Give the reader some breaks in between.


Edit:I should have mentioned the second time was shapeshifting alien tech that at first gave him an all gold body and pretty much made him Plastic Man with Gun Blaster arms. But he couldn't change from his gold state. Then when he could change to looking like a "human" Vic was written off the team.

[lemonpeace]

Which time?

Both times it be a technically no, since one time was artificial skin and his body rejected the process.(He didn't have his Superhero tech though)

The Second time it was alien tech that only made him look human. Effectively making him really all machine who can take a human appearance. But the reader never really saw him "live" a human life because quickly after it happen he was taken out of the book. When we saw him again the alien tech got stuck in an in between phase of his "standard" appearance. Which was a combination of his half man and half machine. But he was still all tech only looking partially human. Ergo no male parts.



There was to many/to much of that in my opinion. The combination of dealing with Cyborg tech and villain tech got old fast. Grid was cool but they should have stopped there, moved to a villain with different powers then move back to that other tech crisis. Give the reader some breaks in between.


Edit:I should have mentioned the second time was shapeshifting alien tech that at first gave him an all gold body and pretty much made him Plastic Man with Gun Blaster arms. But he couldn't change from his gold state. Then when he could change to looking like a "human" Vic was written off the team.

I believe I read somewhere that it was like a clone body made from alien tech that allowed him to have a human body with is cyborg powers and the retcon matches up with what I read about, so it was most likely the second one.

[DragonsChi]

I believe I read somewhere that it was like a clone body made from alien tech that allowed him to have a human body with is cyborg powers and the retcon matches up with what I read about, so it was most likely the second one.

From what I read when he got the tech it effectively took over his body and only thing was left was his brain/soul.

The his brain/soul was the only thing left but the gold form would rip apart a normal human body doing all the stretchy stuff it was like a colossus type deal....


Edit.: Thinking about again Nightwing did give him a cloned human body to transfer his brain/soul into. But again he was written out of the book and the next time we saw him he was stuck in between. From my interpretation of it when he got stuck he still had no junk because it was the same line of stories where Cyborg got completely wrecked and came off more machine than man in the art.(written by Geoff Johns)

[lemonpeace]

From what I read when he got the tech it effectively took over his body and only thing was left was his brain/soul.

The his brain/soul was the only thing left but the gold form would rip apart a normal human body doing all the stretchy stuff it was like a colossus type deal....


Edit.: Thinking about again Nightwing did give him a cloned human body to transfer his brain/soul into. But again he was written out of the book and the next time we saw him he was stuck in between. From my interpretation of it when he got stuck he still had no junk because it was the same line of stories where Cyborg got completely wrecked and came off more machine than man in the art.(written by Geoff Johns)

Damn c'mon DC, can our boy just be happy for a bit? good lord!

edit: If his new body was malleable and could simulate a human body, couldn't he have just grown a dick?

[DragonsChi]

Damn c'mon DC, can our boy just be happy for a bit? good lord!

edit: If his new body was malleable and could simulate a human body, couldn't he have just grown a dick?

Well yeah he could but he would essentially be a vibrator at that point. Anything he would be "feeling" would just be manufactured in what he thought the deed would feel like.

But that isn't even the point really. He's still not human at that point. He is just a machine with a possibly human brain but not really since it's just "soul" energy or something.

Comics *shrug*

Edit: Even saying all of that....I would still take those story lines over the recent stuff. At least Vic had solid characterization. In those books all the panels could be lights out black and you still be able to know who was saying what if you were a fan.

[lemonpeace]

Well yeah he could but he would essentially be a vibrator at that point. Anything he would be "feeling" would just be manufactured in what he thought the deed would feel like.

But that isn't even the point really. He's still not human at that point. He is just a machine with a possibly human brain but not really since it's just "soul" energy or something.

Comics *shrug*

Edit: Even saying all of that....I would still take those story lines over the recent stuff. At least Vic had solid characterization. In those books all the panels could be lights out black and you still be able to know who was saying what if you were a fan.

Hmmm, I can see what you mean but at that point we start to get into Westworld territory: if it's that indistinguishable from being human, does it really matter if it's "manufactured"? Especially in Vic's case in this particular situation since, generally in fiction, what makes robots/synthetic beings "inferior" is that they lack a soul. So if he looks and feels like a human, experiences stimuli like a human, and has a human soul?

I think that kind of transhumanist concept could be a more interesting thing to explore nowadays considering post-DCYou Vic's cybernetics have reached the point where he can regenerate/simulate a human, even if he generally stays fully metallic, than him debating himself about the merits of his humanity. Not more man or monster but maybe have him be more secure in his transhumanism and have it be that he has to help others contextualize that kind of bleeding edge philosophy.