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  1. #601
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Haha! Cyborg was referenced in Stranger Things season 3.

  2. #602
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    If they had left Cyborg on the Titans then maybe I would have been willing to accept status quo stories. But once they move Cyborg to the Justice League and you see the there was clear attempt to make him "premium hero" and the face of black heroes for DC the expectations changed. It is not just Cyborg this applies to but Hawkgirl,John Stewart, Martian Manhunter, Mera,etc. I don't get the point of moving Cyborg to a founder of Justice League and feature him more if not to treat him on the same level of those heroes. The talk of change isn't because people dislike Cyborg .The talk of change in my mind because everyone understood what moving Cyborg to Justice League meant and the ideas that don't have limits on the them because he is on freaking team with Superman,Batman and Wonder Woman arguable the biggest heroes in comics and that is what people think needs to happen to make him stand on the same level as them.

    Overall I am pretty happy with Cyborg it just that he is not doing great on what I call the higher level( Solo comic, Solo movie and Justice League). In this topic they are actually two Cyborgs being talk about A. The Cyborg you see presented in stuff B. The Cyborg who was moved to Justice League and is expected to be Iconic hero. Most of us I think are talking about Cyborg B. The weirdest thing is couple of people who show to say that Cyborg can't be this or only he should be this like people don't what Cyborg is. We know what Cyborg is we just choose to see what he could be. I will end similar to where I started as long as DC is doing thing to make Cyborg the premier Black hero you will see different expectations from me. They decide use Mr Terrific, Vixen, Steel, Batwing, John Stewart,etc in that spot. They are going to inherit higher expectations as well.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 07-07-2019 at 11:43 PM.

  3. #603
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    So let's talk about Young Justice Cyborg. He has excellent design but he is trapped right now in the "poor me" Cyborg mode. I think he has been in 4 or 5 episodes now and he has just been moping around and sad. I expect obviously at some point for it to stop but shows in microcosm what has been bigger issue with Cyborg even when he is good place. What makes Cyborg a good character is also sinking him he is deep and complex character but they seem to forget he is also a fun character. They are working up something so they get a pass from me but we have seen this from Cyborg before mad at his dad, wants to be normal, doesn't like who he is, etc

  4. #604
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Haha! Cyborg was referenced in Stranger Things season 3.
    The comment about "what Victor Stone's dad used to make Cyborg"? Good to see our boy referenced on a show like that.
    Last edited by Johnny; 07-08-2019 at 12:19 AM.

  5. #605
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    *WARNING POST WILL CONTAIN UNBIASED TRUTH. THOSE WHO CAN NOT HANDLE IT SHOULD AVOID READING OR KEEP THEIR EMOTIONAL SUPPORT DOGS/ANIMALS ON STANDBY*

    The idea that any one character should be the "face" of an entire race is not only regressive but it is insulting an self depreciating.

    Every character being created and written on-going should worry about one thing and one thing only and that is BEING A GOOD CHARACTER WITH DEPTH.

    From what I can tell ever since the New 52 happen Cyborg has been a character who lost his purpose and was turned into a prop to show how "diverse" the company is. Doing so has caused them to FAIL at BOTH.

    Along with that, the continual narrative that to be the most prominent *insert race here* should be this or should be that is also counterintuitive to developing a GOOD character. There is no CHECK BOX of surface level traits in constructing a good character. Especially if those traits start and finish around power levels and what they look like. You want a character to be dead on arrival, focus mostly on power level and feats and watch how quick said character gets thrown into limbo. *Looks at Sentry, Firestorm, Blue Marvel, Captain Atom.*

    I get that people want a hero they can stand behind and I do too. However, you are defeating yourself with these points. You want characters you can stand with? Then start asking for true character development that fits the characters narrative, history, and purpose. As opposed to power levels, current social/team status, and narratives that take the character further away from who he/she is.

    *two cents thrown*
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 07-08-2019 at 04:25 AM.
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  6. #606
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    *WARNING POST WILL CONTAIN UNBIASED TRUTH. THOSE WHO CAN NOT HANDLE IT SHOULD AVOID READING OR KEEP THEIR EMOTIONAL SUPPORT DOGS/ANIMALS ON STANDBY*

    The idea that any one character should be the "face" of an entire race is not only regressive but it is insulting an self depreciating.

    Every character being created and written on-going should worry about one thing and one thing only and that is BEING A GOOD CHARACTER WITH DEPTH.

    From what I can tell ever since the New 52 happen Cyborg has been a character who lost his purpose and was turned into a prop to show how "diverse" the company is. Doing so has caused them to FAIL at BOTH.

    Along with that, the continual narrative that to be the most prominent *insert race here* should be this or should be that is also counterintuitive to developing a GOOD character. There is no CHECK BOX of surface level traits in constructing a good character. Especially if those traits start and finish around power levels and what they look like. You want a character to be dead on arrival, focus mostly on power level and feats and watch how quick said character gets thrown into limbo. *Looks at Sentry, Firestorm, Blue Marvel, Captain Atom.*

    I get that people want a hero they can stand behind and I do too. However, you are defeating yourself with these points. You want characters you can stand with? Then start asking for true character development that fits the characters narrative, history, and purpose. As opposed to power levels, current social/team status, and narratives that take the character further away from who he/she is.

    *two cents thrown*
    All right and well. Except that Cyborg's foundations are rotten, because he is fundamentally opposed to how peoples now see technology and especially human enhancements and prosthesis, and thus stuck in a never ending repeat of the same story-beats, which have outlived any interesting elements they could have had. Nobody would wallow for years because he's been bonded with super-tech to save his life. But apparently, wanting Cyborg to be relevant, and thus a Good Character, as opposed to an hopeless remnant of a bygone era is also opposed, because DC and most of its fans seems gripped into an unsustainable Nostalgia Wankfest were having their two biggest heroes wear underwear on the outside is somehow indicative of how true, iconic and thus Good Characters they are.
    Last edited by Korath; 07-08-2019 at 05:00 AM.

  7. #607
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    All right and well. Except that Cyborg's foundations are rotten, because he is fundamentally opposed to how peoples now see technology and especially human enhancements and prosthesis, and thus stuck in a never ending repeat of the same story-beats, which have outlived any interesting elements they could have had. Nobody would wallow for years because he's been bonded with super-tech to save his life. But apparently, wanting Cyborg to be relevant, and thus a Good Character, as opposed to an hopeless remnant of a bygone era is also opposed, because DC and most of its fans seems gripped into an unsustainable Nostalgia Wankfest were having their two biggest heroes wear underwear on the outside is somehow indicative of how true, iconic and thus Good Characters they are.
    Korath, ANYONE who lost the use of their arms, legs, and half their face would not be whistling dixi just because they got hooked up to cold lifeless tech. They fore certain wouldn't be happy if said results led to their one dream in life being virtually impossible to obtain. That's just realistic, no one who fully understands and/or has full contents of their mental faculties would be jumping for joy at the thought of being in a traumatic debilitating accident, just so they can be hooked up to machines.

    Now, I'm not saying every story should revolve around that. Nor am I saying he should mention it in every issue. But that is a core realistic trait of who the character is. He was a Jock who primary goal in life was to be Super Star Athlete, only for that to be taken away from him in one of the worst ways possible. That is who he is. That is realistic characterization. That is something STORIES can be MINED from for years to come.

    Using terms like "Nostalgia Wankfest" in the framework of your point is just code for the character should be "Marry Sue" . Because at its core all it's saying is "This character should not need to struggle because he should have all these awesome superpowers" , its a point that does nothing for the on-going development of the character.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 07-08-2019 at 05:24 AM.
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  8. #608
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    How long has Cyborg been struggling with it ?

    Far too long. He doesn't need to be "Gee, Thanks dad, I'm better than ever now!" from the get go, if ever. But the constant angst, questioning about his very nature, and his very look (basically a half-face on a robotic robot) combined make him unappealing and prevent him from growing as a character. Add to that a blatant lack of interesting concepts for his rogue gallery (the only notable exception being Grid), repetitive stories (usually involving robotic/virtual opponents, a heavy dose of afro-american culture which often feels forced into the story instead of being a natural part of it and, obviously, Vic crying about himself, unsure if he's a man or a machine, and if he has a soul) and you get a character who can't sustain anything.

    And it would be the case even if he was with the NTT still, because the writers knows perfectly that readers don't want new things for those characters. They want the NTT feel and aura... something which can't be replicated, especially not by aping older stories, but they'll try nonetheless because any change to the characters are either for making them "edgelords" or "Mary Sues" in the eyes of vocal portion of the fanbase who will be able, because of the nature of monthly comics, to extremely hurt some characters.

    As a character, Cyborg needs to grow out of his angst. He may not have the life he wanted, but he's alive, kicking and disabled only because he somehows doesn't want to apply his technology to get a normal appearance. Him not looking like a piece of meat on a robot won't hurt the appeal of the character, it won't make him less "disabled" or "crippled" or whatever. But it'll make him an inspiring figure, showing kids that they don't have to be defined by even a traumatic accident, that they can recover even from that.

    He doesn't even need to forgive his father, just to accept that Silas truly did it for him, and get on with his life. And considering how powerful he is nowadays, he doesn't need to be looking at screen constantly, hidden away at Star Labs or the Watchtower or the Hall of Justice. Give him a life outside heroics, he can still be with a girlfriend and monitoring the world for dangerous hackers or events for the League.

  9. #609
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    How long has Cyborg been struggling with it ?
    The character lost his limbs and half his face. It will always be there. Just like any normal human who has a disability, it is an intrinsic part of who he is.

    Again, not every story should or has to be about it but it's not going away.

    Anyone who has actually read his most of his appearances Pre-52 (and even to a lesser degree currently) would know that the characters whole world isn't revolved around his struggle. He has other stories and dialogue. Ergo a earlier post in this thread about it being obvious to those who actually read comics knows better and wouldn't be spouting certain talking points. Not saying your one of them (haven't seen many of your post and I think your intentions are pure. For now.) but the argument is one of their focal points because they don't know anything else about him. The same individuals appear in other threads doing the same thing, talking surface level points they disagree with, not knowing ANYTHING about that of which they speak.
    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post

    As a character, Cyborg needs to grow out of his angst. He may not have the life he wanted, but he's alive, kicking and disabled only because he somehows doesn't want to apply his technology to get a normal appearance. Him not looking like a piece of meat on a robot won't hurt the appeal of the character, it won't make him less "disabled" or "crippled" or whatever. But it'll make him an inspiring figure, showing kids that they don't have to be defined by even a traumatic accident, that they can recover even from that.

    He doesn't even need to forgive his father, just to accept that Silas truly did it for him, and get on with his life. And considering how powerful he is nowadays, he doesn't need to be looking at screen constantly, hidden away at Star Labs or the Watchtower or the Hall of Justice. Give him a life outside heroics, he can still be with a girlfriend and monitoring the world for dangerous hackers or events for the League.
    This is how you end a character's story. The day he or any character fully accepts his/her primary motivation is the day the character's story end.

    If Batman accepts his parents death and deals with world the way it is. THE END

    The day Superman lets humanity deal with their own vices and does not feel it needs an example to strive for . THE END

    The day Spider-Man feels that he met the obligations of his own going responsibility. THE END

    So on and So on.

    Cyborg primary character motivation in life at it very base is the JOCK SUPER STAR who had no goals of being a HERO but became one anyway in-spite of terrible struggle and disability.

    You take that away and his story is essentially OVER.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 07-08-2019 at 06:08 AM.
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  10. #610
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    I think that Cyborg struggles more with the grief of his Mother after the accident than his appearance/condition. Maybe there should be a storyline were he goes to counseling so that he can finally forgive himself and move on. I wonder if this was the pitch that Ray Fisher gave to Warner Bros, he said he wanted an intimate movie surrounding family. Recently I had a fanfic idea involving Mr. Freeze and Justice League Dark which involve Freeze letting his wife go and then he moved on but only after somehow combined the Afterlife with the dream world and the living world with the help of a wizard. Mr. Freeze is reunited with his wife because everyone who was once dead or in the dreamworld is now in a new shared space with people who are alive and living. But when the Justice League Dark gets involved everything is but back to normal. In this story Mr. Freeze could easily be swapped out with Cyborg. But the lesson is 'being' and accept things that can't be changed and then moving on. But I think Cyborg has moved on. Imo the John Semper jr. run was a great the characters and concepts just needed to be fleshed out more and exposed to a larger audience because they were introduced one after another. But Semper jr.'s run seemed to be influential. His last arc had Cyborg in the Digital Universe fighting people who transform into robot Zombies, which is similar to DCeased. And there was a character introduced in Black Lightning tv last season that was very similar to the character in Semper jr's run, the teenager Exxy. Another Exxy like character appeared in the last Titans run.
    fdf33669f5a5ad0881d898b0b8015d1c._SX360_QL80_TTD_.jpg


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    Last edited by Wakeneuron; 07-08-2019 at 06:29 AM.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    How long has Cyborg been struggling with it ?

    Far too long. He doesn't need to be "Gee, Thanks dad, I'm better than ever now!" from the get go, if ever. But the constant angst, questioning about his very nature, and his very look (basically a half-face on a robotic robot) combined make him unappealing and prevent him from growing as a character. Add to that a blatant lack of interesting concepts for his rogue gallery (the only notable exception being Grid), repetitive stories (usually involving robotic/virtual opponents, a heavy dose of afro-american culture which often feels forced into the story instead of being a natural part of it and, obviously, Vic crying about himself, unsure if he's a man or a machine, and if he has a soul) and you get a character who can't sustain anything.

    And it would be the case even if he was with the NTT still, because the writers knows perfectly that readers don't want new things for those characters. They want the NTT feel and aura... something which can't be replicated, especially not by aping older stories, but they'll try nonetheless because any change to the characters are either for making them "edgelords" or "Mary Sues" in the eyes of vocal portion of the fanbase who will be able, because of the nature of monthly comics, to extremely hurt some characters.

    As a character, Cyborg needs to grow out of his angst. He may not have the life he wanted, but he's alive, kicking and disabled only because he somehows doesn't want to apply his technology to get a normal appearance. Him not looking like a piece of meat on a robot won't hurt the appeal of the character, it won't make him less "disabled" or "crippled" or whatever. But it'll make him an inspiring figure, showing kids that they don't have to be defined by even a traumatic accident, that they can recover even from that.

    He doesn't even need to forgive his father, just to accept that Silas truly did it for him, and get on with his life. And considering how powerful he is nowadays, he doesn't need to be looking at screen constantly, hidden away at Star Labs or the Watchtower or the Hall of Justice. Give him a life outside heroics, he can still be with a girlfriend and monitoring the world for dangerous hackers or events for the League.
    I agree with this. Cyborg should have overcome his angst a long time ago. Writers who keep bringing up the 'am I a man or monster/machine' storyline are actually stagnating his character. The whole NTT roster is a victim of this stagnation and part of the reason why writers constantly rehash old storylines or derail them when everything else fails. Just because it worked in the 1980s doesn't mean that it works in the current year or that a character has to remain the same because of 'muh tradition'.

    Cyborg is in a worse position than the other NTT characters because he was promoted to the big leagues and writers refuse to have him grow beyond his original characterization.

  12. #612
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Ahh...the Super Jock Athlete dream. Wow! What an aspiration!

    A universe renowned superhero. Flight. Super strength. The ability to control technology. The ability to travel the universe. But wait! He couldn't play "the football". Ohhh nooo!

  13. #613
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    Ahh...the Super Jock Athlete dream. Wow! What an aspiration!

    A universe renowned superhero. Flight. Super strength. The ability to control technology. The ability to travel the universe. But wait! He couldn't play "the football". Ohhh nooo!
    Example of when your points are proven in a single post. *Nothing but Smiles*
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  14. #614
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post

    Cyborg primary character motivation in life at it very base is the JOCK SUPER STAR who had no goals of being a HERO but became one anyway in-spite of terrible struggle and disability.

    You take that away and his story is essentially OVER.
    But that's not something to build upon either.

    He wanted to be an athlete, couldn't be because he became a super-hero against his will.

    Great. And ?

    What stories can you build out of this ? Not much. If his whole purpose is "I wanted to be an American football star" and he just became a hero by accident and never change from there... well, I'm sorry, but I won't give a fuck for such a character, because he would be aimless, as deep as a flattened piece of paper and unable to move in any direction. Ergo, what's been plaguing Cyborg ever since the 80's ended and the luster he had as a New Teen Titan faded away.

    If it's truly what DC wants for the character, then the best thing they could do to it is to retire him. Because he would have no story nor character potential, if he always has to be that, the former athlete whose dream has been destroyed. And I don't want Vic to go into limbo, but frankly, if he has to be just that, it would be an act of mercy. At least then, DC could perhaps try to have an actually more deep and interesting PoC (by virtue of not being tied to a foundation as rotten as Cyborg the former Jock is) put to prominence.

  15. #615
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    I agree with this. Cyborg should have overcome his angst a long time ago. Writers who keep bringing up the 'am I a man or monster/machine' storyline are actually stagnating his character. The whole NTT roster is a victim of this stagnation and part of the reason why writers constantly rehash old storylines or derail them when everything else fails. Just because it worked in the 1980s doesn't mean that it works in the current year or that a character has to remain the same because of 'muh tradition'.

    Cyborg is in a worse position than the other NTT characters because he was promoted to the big leagues and writers refuse to have him grow beyond his original characterization.
    I think the problem DC has is that they forget what made the NTT sell in the first place; growth. In a market where everyone is stuck in a static status quo, the Titans actually grew up and developed. That's what made that book work, that's what made it popular (on top of just general quality too, of course!).

    That's the difference between Vic and Superman (or any other big name, sustainable IP) and why keeping Vic in "man or machine?" mode doesn't work. Clark, Bruce, Diana, etc., are built to stay in their static status quo while Vic got to grow and change and his early stage angst was something he got to deal with and move on from (more or less, it never totally went away, nor should it have. But "angst" wasn't his core trait after a while). Its ironic that development is what made the NTT popular in the 80's, and now DC is determined to keep them in a static shape trying to recapture that magic.

    If DC wants Vic to be a big name player, they have to find a status quo and mindset for Vic that can be sustained indefinitely. Suffering from the trauma of his accident isn't going to work. It makes sense that he'd struggle with it early on, but once you're saying he's been active for a decade? No one is going to be sympathetic to that. He can, and should, always feel the sting of what he lost but he's gotta make peace with himself sometime, otherwise he's always going to be seen as a kid in the process of figuring himself out, and that's not going to put him on the same level as the rest of the League.
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