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  1. #91
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Anti-Geek View Post
    I don’t understand why he NEEDS to be a wish-fulfillment character?
    Well who knows, the Ivan Reis design and to a certain degree the Young Justice design is the closest to "wish-fulfillment" Cyborg I think we've seen so far. Even portions of the Semper run come to mind where Vic was walking around in human mode for an entire issue and even got laid. But it is interesting to see people who usually mock some of those good looking archetype characters and call them outdated or unrelatable, turn around and claim that a character like Cyborg is inferior because of the way he looks. Maybe it's because for the longest time he was the only character of color that was pushed by DC so I guess it kind of made him stick out like a sore thumb that DC would push "a robot" as opposed to an African supermodel or a space cop or a former olympic athlete with lightning powers, or a weapons engineer carrying the S on his chest, etc. In perspective I can understand those complaints, but it does bring up the question whether some fans want diversity in general or only specific type of diversity that fits their own perception of what a diverse hero "needs" to be.
    Last edited by Johnny; 03-04-2019 at 10:32 AM.

  2. #92
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Another huge problem is that DC doesn’t allow Cyborg to move on from his tragic origin. There are a lot of heroes who have tragedies in their past but they have grown into positive wish fulfillment characters. Batman, Spider-Man, The Flash, Green Lantern (Hal watched his father’s plane crash), etc.

  3. #93
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    I think that there's just too much out-of-this-world tech in the DC universe for him to be so limited in his visuals. Tech is way beyond what it was at his inception.

    Nanites. Comic book technology nanites. Both of his solos showed him being able to morph fully human. Justice League is the only hold out. Best we got was a hologram.

    I get that the faceplate is trademark, but give us techno-organic skin in the arms. That way he at least doesn't come off as he's naked all the time.

    Advance the concept of Cyborg.

    All that being said, I do enjoy what they're doing with him in Doom Patrol.
    Last edited by Iconic; 03-04-2019 at 09:50 AM.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    It's because wish fulfillment and power fantasy are DC's bread and butter, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's always been like that. All of DC's most prominent heroes are wish-fulfillment characters. Guys identify with and want to be like Superman and Batman. Girls want to be like Wonder Woman, and many guys want to date Wonder Woman, and Supergirl, and Zatanna, and even Harley Quinn, and so on. The characters are designed that way (they are idealized).
    Then again, Doom Patrol isn't depicting Victor as a wish fulfillment character and that's the best received version since the Teen Titans cartoon. Which didn't really depict him as a wish fulfillment character either.

    And there have been plenty of DC characters that aren't wish fulfillment that are well received.


    The Justice League cartoon show woke (har har) DC up to the idea that it would probably be a good idea to have a prominent black character in their universe who can be on the Justice League. However, DC doesn't like John Stewart, who was used in the cartoon, so they decided Cyborg would fill that role instead. I don't really think they like Cyborg, either, but they like John Stewart even less. The problem is, they were too dumb to realize that nobody wants to be like Cyborg, and nobody wants to be WITH Cyborg. Black male fans "suffer" from this. There is no DC Comics character that is confidently endorsed by DC that black males WANT to identify with on that level (many don't WANT to identify with Cyborg, and that is the problem) that isn't a sidekick, support character, or second or third string hero.

    I think it's a pretty easy to understand situation.
    Would Black Lightning count? He has a t.v. series and is on Young Justice.

  5. #95
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Then again, Doom Patrol isn't depicting Victor as a wish fulfillment character and that's the best received version since the Teen Titans cartoon. Which didn't really depict him as a wish fulfillment character either.

    And there have been plenty of DC characters that aren't wish fulfillment that are well received.



    Would Black Lightning count? He has a t.v. series and is on Young Justice.
    Doom Patrol Vic fits within the framework of that TV series. He's not advanced to the degree that he'd be when with the Justice League, so he fits.

    Teen Titans Vic was simply a jokey character on a jokey show. He wasn't put in the prominent position within DC at the time. John Stewart looked to be the most prominent on TV until the show ended.

    As for Black Lightning, he's just getting back on the scene of DC's books after DC and Isabella worked things out. The CW show is rocking along. His role in Young Justice is good. He is just not currently pushed to the forefront of the DCU.

    The thing that's important is that Vic is now a JL mainstay. With that being the case, he'll always be seen besides Superman, Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Flash.
    All attractive.
    All with their productive own lives.
    All able to advance beyond their initial tragedies.
    Meanwhile, Vic enjoys none of those things that allow us to enjoy reading about the other members. The one Leaguer no one would want to be as it currently stands.

    I hope they address this soon.

    Young Justice Cyborg might be going in the right direction.
    Last edited by Iconic; 03-04-2019 at 11:32 AM.

  6. #96
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    That's it.

    He's the most (and only) prominent black hero DC has on the most prominent team, yet he doesn't have the benefit any of the wishfulfilment. Everyone else is someone you want to be...except the lone black hero. He's only allowed to be tragic. That speaks volumes.

    The current look of Cyborg seems like the idea of someone who might say "I don't see color". Seeing color would be beneficial here.

    I like the character of Cyborg. I want better for him though. I want the idealized, wishfulfilment aspect to be apart of him now.
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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    Doom Patrol Vic fits within the framework of that TV series. He's not advanced to the degree that he'd be when with the Justice League, so he fits.

    Teen Titans Vic was simply a jokey character on a jokey show. He wasn't put in the prominent position within DC at the time. John Stewart looked to be the most prominent on TV until the show ended.

    As for Black Lightning, he's just getting back on the scene of DC's books after DC and Isabella worked things out. The CW show is rocking along. His role in Young Justice is good. He is just not currently pushed to the forefront of the DCU.

    The thing that's important is that Vic is now a JL mainstay. With that being the case, he'll always be seen besides Superman, Batman, Aquaman, Wonder Woman and Flash.
    All attractive.
    All with their productive own lives.
    All able to advance beyond their initial tragedies.
    Meanwhile, Vic enjoys none of those things that allow us to enjoy reading about the other members. The one Leaguer no one would want to be as it currently stands.

    I hope they address this soon.

    Young Justice Cyborg might be going in the right direction.
    I agree Vic does fit into the framework of Doom Patrol. All those characters are broken just like him mentally, physically or both. Cyborg in the Teen Titans Cartoon was jokey character but it was a nice contrast to the depressive character heís commonly portrayed as.
    As of this moment Cyborgs film is not happening and heíll be the only Justice League member to not get one which is not a good look. John Stewart does serve as the best wish fullfilment but with Geoff Johns and Hal Jordan being involved heíll be limited. The same thing could be said for Black Lightning, the show should be called Thunder and Lighting because it feels like itís there show.
    Thereís been a common thing to push a black male lead to back burner in their own show or film. Blade, Black Lightning, Black Panther and a little bit of Luke Cage. The supporting characters are always written to outshine the main lead and make them look boring or less interesting.
    Cyborg is now becoming a The Lebron James of DC. Jumping from team to team and never fully realizing his potential as lead character. When it comes to Young Justice Iím going to wait and see because the cast is so big that most characters donít get that much time.

  8. #98
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Then again, Doom Patrol isn't depicting Victor as a wish fulfillment character and that's the best received version since the Teen Titans cartoon. Which didn't really depict him as a wish fulfillment character either.
    The Doom Patrol is not a wish fulfillment team. That's kind of the conceit of the whole thing. They are freak characters you can like, but you DON'T want to be. It's kind of the opposite of the norm of what goes on with DC heroes. I think it's very telling that Cyborg in Doom Patrol is so well accepted. I believe this is because--kinda' sadly--he fits there. This means he doesn't really fit alongside Superman, Batman, The Flash, Wonder Woman, and that gang. Again, that's part of the problem with DC pushing him as though he does, while also acting like they are promoting a positive, desirable image of a black man.

    And there have been plenty of DC characters that aren't wish fulfillment that are well received.
    This is true, and I never, ever said otherwise. But when was Swamp Thing ever the most prominent ANYTHING at DC Comics? DC has pushed Cyborg as the most prominent black character for the last eight or so years. The point is that DC should either not have done that, or they should have fixed Cyborg and featured him better, because what they put forward was not near good enough.

    Would Black Lightning count? He has a t.v. series and is on Young Justice.
    I kind of don't think so. He is too low profile. He isn't featured much in DC Comics, and when he is, a lot of the time he's one of Batman's goons. He has a T.V. show, but he isn't even up for consideration for a film. He is not a mainstay Justice League character.

  9. #99
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Well who knows, the Ivan Reis design and to a certain degree the Young Justice design is the closest to "wish-fulfillment" Cyborg I think we've seen so far. Even portions of the Semper run come to mind where Vic was walking around in human mode for an entire issue and even got laid. But it is interesting to see people who usually mock some of those good looking archetype characters and call them outdated or unrelatable, turn around and claim that a character like Cyborg is inferior because of the way he looks. Maybe it's because for the longest time he was the only character of color that was pushed by DC so I guess it kind of made him stick out like a sore thumb that DC would push "a robot" as opposed to an African supermodel or a space cop or a former olympic athlete with lightning powers, or a weapons engineer carrying the S on his chest, etc. In perspective I can understand those complaints, but it does bring up the question whether some fans want diversity in general or only specific type of diversity that fits their own perception of what a diverse hero "needs" to be.
    To a certain degree is right. I really don't see much wish-fulfillment with YJ Cyborg beyond the fact that he doesn't have a completely robotic/bulky design.

    There's still the body horror aspect, he thinks of himself as a freak and hates what he's become, and he gets brainwashed by the Fatherbox inside of him.

    Maybe that'll change when he develops into a hero, but right now he's pretty far from a wish-fulfillment character. Right now he's just kid who used to have it all but is now angry and unsure of his place in the world (which is basically the original Cyborg)
    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    Teen Titans Vic was simply a jokey character on a jokey show. He wasn't put in the prominent position within DC at the time. John Stewart looked to be the most prominent on TV until the show ended.
    Cyborg on the original Teen Titans cartoon wasn't just a jokey character. There was a lot of heart to him.
    .

  10. #100
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    Cyborg on the original Teen Titans cartoon wasn't just a jokey character. There was a lot of heart to him.
    .
    I'm not saying the TT version didn't have heart. I called it jokey as far as it was light and comical take. On that show his appearance was never an issue because he wasn't a premier character the way he is now.

  11. #101
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    I agree Vic does fit into the framework of Doom Patrol. All those characters are broken just like him mentally, physically or both. Cyborg in the Teen Titans Cartoon was jokey character but it was a nice contrast to the depressive character he’s commonly portrayed as.
    As of this moment Cyborgs film is not happening and he’ll be the only Justice League member to not get one which is not a good look. John Stewart does serve as the best wish fullfilment but with Geoff Johns and Hal Jordan being involved he’ll be limited. The same thing could be said for Black Lightning, the show should be called Thunder and Lighting because it feels like it’s there show.
    There’s been a common thing to push a black male lead to back burner in their own show or film. Blade, Black Lightning, Black Panther and a little bit of Luke Cage. The supporting characters are always written to outshine the main lead and make them look boring or less interesting.
    Cyborg is now becoming a The Lebron James of DC. Jumping from team to team and never fully realizing his potential as lead character. When it comes to Young Justice I’m going to wait and see because the cast is so big that most characters don’t get that much time.
    This, unfortunately, is a trend for Hollywood, with the goal of making Black Males seem less threatening while at the same time projecting how they would like for us to act. It's present even in the a lot of the Marvel Comics lately. They want the "Safe" black male.
    Last edited by DragonsChi; 03-04-2019 at 03:27 PM.
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  12. #102
    Astonishing Member DragonsChi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    To a certain degree is right. I really don't see much wish-fulfillment with YJ Cyborg beyond the fact that he doesn't have a completely robotic/bulky design.

    There's still the body horror aspect, he thinks of himself as a freak and hates what he's become, and he gets brainwashed by the Fatherbox inside of him.

    Maybe that'll change when he develops into a hero, but right now he's pretty far from a wish-fulfillment character. Right now he's just kid who used to have it all but is now angry and unsure of his place in the world (which is basically the original Cyborg)

    Cyborg on the original Teen Titans cartoon wasn't just a jokey character. There was a lot of heart to him.
    .
    I disagree. YJ for me is the most wish-fullment I ever got out of Cyborg as a character. He sleek, cool, and powerful(but Balanced). In comparison he went from being Blob to Nightcrawler. Where Blob is unappealing due to his excessive weight and his abilities while powerful tend to be off putting due to his disfigurement, Nightcrawler on the other hand, has cool powers and a interesting design you would be more incline to live with if you got stuck with his powers.

    At least thats how I feel.
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  13. #103
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    I wonder if the perception towards Cyborg being in the JL would've been different had he never been in another team before. Let's say he was always a solo character who occasionally took part in team-ups, but never actually originated from a team. Would people see him in a different light or is it still going to be the same arguments about him supposedly being a character that comes off as inferior to the other members or feeling out of place, or anything that people have said about him since 2011.

  14. #104
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    Im wondering if he will go back to being in the main JL book after JLO is done. Currently he's sometimes in the covers and sometimes not.

  15. #105
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironmonk View Post
    Im wondering if he will go back to being in the main JL book after JLO is done. Currently he's sometimes in the covers and sometimes not.
    Probably not until Snyder is off the book. I think when you read his run, it's abundantly clear that he doesn't care about writing Cyborg.

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