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  1. #106
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I wonder if the perception towards Cyborg being in the JL would've been different had he never been in another team before. Let's say he was always a solo character who occasionally took part in team-ups, but never actually originated from a team. Would people see him in a different light or is it still going to be the same arguments about him supposedly being a character that comes off as inferior to the other members or feeling out of place, or anything that people have said about him since 2011.
    Whether Cyborg was on a team previously or not makes no difference. The problems are simply there with the character. What I suspect is if the character had success as a solo character, which is unlikely given, again, he supplies no wish fulfillment whatsoever, then there would be a segment of fans more accepting of him being on the Justice League and getting his push based on that. So he would have more legitimacy if he could carry a solo series... which he can't. Which hurts his legitimacy, because every other main Justice League character can.

    But the... "Cyborg is fundamentally flawed for being DC's premier black male character when you compare him to his peers," and "Put Cyborg back on the Titans and restore his history with them, I liked him how he was before," are two totally different discussions. Interestingly, they're both often points of discontent readers have with the character. He seems to get far more criticism than praise, yet DC doesn't do much to address issues people have with him. I guess they have him pal around with Starfire now, which may appease the people who like him to hang out with Titans.
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 03-04-2019 at 04:47 PM.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    Well who knows, the Ivan Reis design and to a certain degree the Young Justice design is the closest to "wish-fulfillment" Cyborg I think we've seen so far. Even portions of the Semper run come to mind where Vic was walking around in human mode for an entire issue and even got laid. But it is interesting to see people who usually mock some of those good looking archetype characters and call them outdated or unrelatable, turn around and claim that a character like Cyborg is inferior because of the way he looks. Maybe it's because for the longest time he was the only character of color that was pushed by DC so I guess it kind of made him stick out like a sore thumb that DC would push "a robot" as opposed to an African supermodel or a space cop or a former olympic athlete with lightning powers, or a weapons engineer carrying the S on his chest, etc. In perspective I can understand those complaints, but it does bring up the question whether some fans want diversity in general or only specific type of diversity that fits their own perception of what a diverse hero "needs" to be.

    What fans want Cyborg to have is what Batman, Superman and every other A-C lister has at DC. ALL THE TIME. Not once every blue moon.
    Black Panther & Spawn are not where they are with a crappy solo every blue moon. SOMEBODY had behind and put up EFFORT. Somebody had to FIGHT. Someone had to INVEST.
    Black Panther & Miles Morales are OSCAR WINNERS because someone had to FIGHT for them. Remember there were folks FIGHTING to keep both of them out of movies.

    I want someone to take this character and FIGHT for him.
    If he bombs a solo-do another one! Carol Danvers is on volume 10. Supergirl has 7! Keep FIGHTING. Keep BLEEPING fighting.

    Bendis is going to fight for Naomi.
    Synder is going to fight for Duke.

    Who is going to fight for Cyborg?

    Because everyone else is fighting for that top black hero. Marvel is about to have it on lock. Image is not playing around either-they are at 5 DAMN good ones. Lion Forge is not playing. Valiant is not playing. Kwanza & Black Mask are not playing. So why is DC playing?
    Why is YET another tv show treating Cyborg with WAY more respect than the comics? Why do THEY get it right with pretty much black folks and Young Justice kids and the comic side can't.

    I would be embarrassed as a DC employee to realize Miles started at the same time as Cyborg's push. And Cyborg got BURIED by him.



    Would Black Lightning count? He has a t.v. series and is on Young Justice.
    He should however where is all the Black Lightning merchandises at?

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    I wonder if the perception towards Cyborg being in the JL would've been different had he never been in another team before. Let's say he was always a solo character who occasionally took part in team-ups, but never actually originated from a team. Would people see him in a different light or is it still going to be the same arguments about him supposedly being a character that comes off as inferior to the other members or feeling out of place, or anything that people have said about him since 2011.
    YES.

    Because that would have meant SOMEONE put in effort to build him up at some point and he would probably have his own rivals and stuff.

  4. #109
    Mighty Member Iconic's Avatar
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    I said I liked the character of Cyborg. Truth is, he's become my favorite character. I feel like I'm more drawn in by his potential. I'm hoping for Doom Patrol and Young Justice to really advance what Cyborg can be and take him to new heights.

  5. #110
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    His potential is always there. And it bugs the hell out of me when potential is either being wasted or never fulfilled. It's a goddamn shame.

  6. #111
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    Every time he progresses, they make him regress. Walker had him progressing and then DC ran him off the book. Priest made him leader and gave him a power boost in but then he regresses to where he was at previously. Every time Cyborg gets a leg up DC kicks the other from under him. In this tech heavy age Cyborg should be someone you want to be.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    The Doom Patrol is not a wish fulfillment team. That's kind of the conceit of the whole thing. They are freak characters you can like, but you DON'T want to be. It's kind of the opposite of the norm of what goes on with DC heroes. I think it's very telling that Cyborg in Doom Patrol is so well accepted. I believe this is because--kinda' sadly--he fits there. This means he doesn't really fit alongside Superman, Batman, The Flash, Wonder Woman, and that gang. Again, that's part of the problem with DC pushing him as though he does, while also acting like they are promoting a positive, desirable image of a black man.
    The Justice League has featured the likes of Martian Manhunter, a freaky looking, green-skinned man from Mars and Plastic Man who isnít exactly turning heads for the right reasons. And Victor has been used as positive image for a disabled black man so if nothing else he shows what is considered a good image for black people isnít binary and can be viewed in a number of ways.



    This is true, and I never, ever said otherwise. But when was Swamp Thing ever the most prominent ANYTHING at DC Comics? DC has pushed Cyborg as the most prominent black character for the last eight or so years. The point is that DC should either not have done that, or they should have fixed Cyborg and featured him better, because what they put forward was not near good enough.
    Well Swamp Thing is on Justice League Dark, a team led by Wonder Woman, and was recently in an Injustice video game. And heís getting a t.v. series.



    I kind of don't think so. He is too low profile. He isn't featured much in DC Comics, and when he is, a lot of the time he's one of Batman's goons. He has a T.V. show, but he isn't even up for consideration for a film. He is not a mainstay Justice League character.
    A t.v. show isnít something to scoff at and is something a lot of fans would want for their favorite.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr HardKnocks View Post
    I agree Vic does fit into the framework of Doom Patrol. All those characters are broken just like him mentally, physically or both. Cyborg in the Teen Titans Cartoon was jokey character but it was a nice contrast to the depressive character heís commonly portrayed as.
    As of this moment Cyborgs film is not happening and heíll be the only Justice League member to not get one which is not a good look. John Stewart does serve as the best wish fullfilment but with Geoff Johns and Hal Jordan being involved heíll be limited. The same thing could be said for Black Lightning, the show should be called Thunder and Lighting because it feels like itís there show.
    Thereís been a common thing to push a black male lead to back burner in their own show or film. Blade, Black Lightning, Black Panther and a little bit of Luke Cage. The supporting characters are always written to outshine the main lead and make them look boring or less interesting.
    Cyborg is now becoming a The Lebron James of DC. Jumping from team to team and never fully realizing his potential as lead character. When it comes to Young Justice Iím going to wait and see because the cast is so big that most characters donít get that much time.
    Thunder and Lightning may have some prominence on the show but their father is still undoubtedly the main lead. A good show develops it's supporting characters as well and that's what Black Lightning is doing. But it doesn't make it Thunder and Lightning's show.

  9. #114
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconic View Post
    I'm not saying the TT version didn't have heart. I called it jokey as far as it was light and comical take. On that show his appearance was never an issue because he wasn't a premier character the way he is now.
    It's true they didn't really focus much on his issues with who he is and his appearance, although there were a few times where it slipped through.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsChi View Post
    I disagree. YJ for me is the most wish-fullment I ever got out of Cyborg as a character. He sleek, cool, and powerful(but Balanced). In comparison he went from being Blob to Nightcrawler. Where Blob is unappealing due to his excessive weight and his abilities while powerful tend to be off putting due to his disfigurement, Nightcrawler on the other hand, has cool powers and a interesting design you would be more incline to live with if you got stuck with his powers.
    I guess I can see that it's sleeker then some of his other animated designs but I feel like part of the reason his looks is more understated her is more to highlight the "man vs. machine" aspect instead of just making him more machine.

    I just haven't seen much of Vic in Young Justice that seems much like wish-fulfillment, especially when he hates everything about being Cyborg so far.

  10. #115
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    My problem with Cyborg being on the JL isn't with him being on the JL; it's him being a founding member, at the expense of his New Teen Titans history, while essentially replacing the Martian Manhunter. However, I will say that if a "person of color" had to be on the JL as a founding member, I would have elected the Martian Manhunter. Instead of J'onn J'onz having a "white" John Jones identity, I would have made John Jones a "Black" character. I would do so in order to enhance the sense of "other" within the character. Plus, I loved Phil Morris' take on the character in "SMALLVILLE". At any rate, I wouldn't mind Cyborg graduating to JL status, as a member of the New Justice League, which forms when Darkseid invades Earth (the original incarnation of the Justice League of America formed in response to Starro the Conqueror.

  11. #116
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The Justice League has featured the likes of Martian Manhunter, a freaky looking, green-skinned man from Mars and Plastic Man who isn’t exactly turning heads for the right reasons. And Victor has been used as positive image for a disabled black man so if nothing else he shows what is considered a good image for black people isn’t binary and can be viewed in a number of ways.
    At this point, you're just going into slivers and slivers of people who don't make up much of the audience or potential audience. Business-wise, you would probably do better getting a prominent black male that the demographic is satisfied with before you start working on inticing the minuscule group who identifies all at once as black, disabled, lesbian, transgender, mexican men.

    Well Swamp Thing is on Justice League Dark, a team led by Wonder Woman, and was recently in an Injustice video game. And he’s getting a t.v. series.
    This is neither here nor there, though. The point is that Swamp Thing is not DC Comics' most prominent white character or black character. Maybe he is DC's most prominent monster. I don't know. But that's not very important.

    A t.v. show isn’t something to scoff at and is something a lot of fans would want for their favorite.
    A T.V. show isn't enough. Not these days. Not unless it's a massive hit. T.V. isn't what it was back in previous decades. DC would need to push the character in various forms of media the way Cyborg has been pushed. We would need to see a stronger effort with Black Lightning in comics, movies, video games, and merchandise. We're not seeing that.
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 03-05-2019 at 12:00 AM.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    At this point, you're just going into slivers and slivers of people who don't make up much of the audience or potential audience. Business-wise, you would probably do better getting a prominent black male that the demographic is satisfied with before you start working on inticing the minuscule group who identifies all at once as black, disabled, lesbian, transgender, mexican men.
    This argument has been used as an excuse to not feature diverse characters plenty of times. Disabled or not, Cyborg is still a black man and one which people can like regardless of whether or not he qualifies as a wish fulfillment character.

    This is neither here nor there, though. The point is that Swamp Thing is not DC Comics' most prominent white character or black character. Maybe he is DC's most prominent monster. I don't know. But that's not very important.
    He’s a prominent character period and doesn’t require wish fulfillment to be one is my point.



    A T.V. show isn't enough. Not these days. Not unless it's a massive hit. T.V. isn't what it was back in previous decades. DC would need to push the character in various forms of media the way Cyborg has been pushed. We would need to see a stronger effort with Black Lightning in comics, movies, video games, and merchandise. We're not seeing that.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...e-time/577468/
    T.V is still very popular these days with the average American household being able to watch up to eight hours of t.v. per day. Jefferson’s show is nothing to dismiss especially given it has been the most critically acclaimed of the DC shows since its debut and the pilot was a record breaker for the CW. BL also has been seeing a push in merchandise.

  13. #118
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This argument has been used as an excuse to not feature diverse characters plenty of times. Disabled or not, Cyborg is still a black man and one which people can like regardless of whether or not he qualifies as a wish fulfillment character.


    He’s a prominent character period and doesn’t require wish fulfillment to be one is my point.




    https://www.theatlantic.com/family/a...e-time/577468/
    T.V is still very popular these days with the average American household being able to watch up to eight hours of t.v. per day. Jefferson’s show is nothing to dismiss especially given it has been the most critically acclaimed of the DC shows since its debut and the pilot was a record breaker for the CW. BL also has been seeing a push in merchandise.
    Likewise, I can say that your argument has been used as an excuse to keep DC's most prominent black character a deformed robot in a universe of attractive white demigods. Your argument might resonate with me when DC cuts off Superman's balls and permanently disfigures Batman with horrible burns, and makes Wonder Woman as fat as Blob from X-Men, so get back to me with it once DC does that.
    Last edited by Vampire Savior; 03-05-2019 at 12:44 AM.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Likewise, I can say that your argument has been used as an excuse to keep DC's most prominent black character a deformed robot in a universe of attractive white demigods. Your argument might resonate with me when DC cuts off Superman's balls and permanently disfigures Batman with horrible burns, and makes Wonder Woman as fat as Blob from X-Men, so get back to me with it once DC does that.
    You know this "DC cut of Cyborg's balls and lost him the ability to have sex" has never actually been proven despite how many times it's been parroted on this site. In fact, we saw Vic having sex in Walker's run.

    As for his deformities, DC's been pushing other black characters besides Victor so his looks aren't an issue. He's not even particularly horrific looking most of the time any way.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 03-05-2019 at 01:15 AM.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You know this "DC cut of Cyborg's balls and lost him the ability to have sex" has never actually been proven despite how many times it's been parroted on this site. In fact, we saw Vic having sex in Walker's run.

    As for his deformities, DC's been pushing other black characters besides Victor so his looks aren't an issue. He's not even particularly horrific looking most of the time any way.
    That was one of the sleek versions of Cyborg closer to wish fulfilment type that people are asking for in the thread. Yes Cyborg looks are an issue,Recently in some versions if him they have been easing back on the robotics and letting him have skin(like Reis version,Young Justice or Doom Patrol) but stuff like the animated Justice League movies,Justice League movie or Justice League Odyssey very much look his head is only part that remains of him that his human. You can't argue the two things can't praise the less robotic versions and then say it is fine to leave him as big more robotic tragedy .

    Anyways the worst part of this thread is that I always go back a read issues of the Cyborg and I am reminded of how bad the book is to read.

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