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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    While it could work, I doubt it can do with the current leadership at DC, and the puritanism that seems to pervade their corporate culture. It'd also require the right writer, and would be a rather big whiplash for the depiction for Diana, who has been desexualised for too long.
    Wait, Diana being desexualised is a bad thing now?

  2. #122
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Actually it is, to a degree. Wonder Woman's very being has an innate erotica/bondage theme behind it by her creator.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Actually it is, to a degree. Wonder Woman's very being has an innate erotica/bondage theme behind it by her creator.
    A theme he handled questionably to say the least. Desexualising Diana isn't a problem in the slightest. Let's not forget one of the many problems DC had with female characters at the start of the New 52.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-13-2020 at 09:26 PM.

  4. #124
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Yet after all this time it still remains far and away WW's most successful and relevant time of existence. I'll always believe they need to take more from that original set up as opposed to deviating completely from it. I'm not saying she needs phallic symbols on every page or anything like that, but like what Morrison did utilizing it in a way in his Earth One books. Those books aren't perfect but researching and utilizing her Golden Age history modded for modern times served it well, imo.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-13-2020 at 09:41 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Yet after all this time it still remains far and away WW's most successful and relevant time of existence. I'll always believe they need to take more from that original set up as opposed to deviating completely from it. I'm not saying she needs phallic symbols on every page or anything like that, but like what Morrison did utilizing it in a way in his Earth One books. Those books aren't perfect but researching and utilizing her Golden Age history modded for modern times served it well, imo.
    Now is Diana's most successful and relevant time of existence thanks to the movie which didn't use any bondage themes. Morrison's book is only popular among a niche crowd and is even more exploitative than the Golden Age stories. If you're looking for a modern take on those themes, that book isn't it.

    Marston's take was popular in a very different time and I think people greatly overestimate how important bdsm is to WW's overall success. There is a reason you don't see those types of stories in the top 10 recommendations for WW very often.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-13-2020 at 10:23 PM.

  6. #126
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Wait, Diana being desexualised is a bad thing now?
    Yes, because sexuality—on her own terms—is part of Wonder Woman's character. I'm not talking suggestive poses with giant boobs here (even if you can find plenty of that in Wonder Woman's history). I'm talking about depicting a woman who is aware of her own sexuality and in control of it. Marston did it via BDSM references and Diana's reactions to them, but it's not necessarily the only way. The movie managed to portray Diana as a sexual being with some great exchanges.

    The trouble is that far too many comics creators only knows how to sexualise a character via the male gaze, and I'm afraid that has been internalised by DC.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yes, because sexuality—on her own terms—is part of Wonder Woman's character. I'm not talking suggestive poses with giant boobs here (even if you can find plenty of that in Wonder Woman's history). I'm talking about depicting a woman who is aware of her own sexuality and in control of it. Marston did it via BDSM references and Diana's reactions to them, but it's not necessarily the only way. The movie managed to portray Diana as a sexual being with some great exchanges.

    The trouble is that far too many comics creators only knows how to sexualise a character via the male gaze, and I'm afraid that has been internalised by DC.
    I'd say the issue is that writers in general just sensationalize sex too much.

  8. #128
    Fantastic Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yes, because sexuality—on her own terms—is part of Wonder Woman's character. I'm not talking suggestive poses with giant boobs here (even if you can find plenty of that in Wonder Woman's history). I'm talking about depicting a woman who is aware of her own sexuality and in control of it. Marston did it via BDSM references and Diana's reactions to them, but it's not necessarily the only way. The movie managed to portray Diana as a sexual being with some great exchanges.

    The trouble is that far too many comics creators only knows how to sexualise a character via the male gaze, and I'm afraid that has been internalised by DC.

    ^This. The problem isn't depicting sex or sexual desires, it's oversexualization in an immature manner.

  9. #129
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Now is Diana's most successful and relevant time of existence thanks to the movie which didn't use any bondage themes. Morrison's book is only popular among a niche crowd and is even more exploitative than the Golden Age stories. If you're looking for a modern take on those themes, that book isn't it.

    Marston's take was popular in a very different time and I think people greatly overestimate how important bdsm is to WW's overall success. There is a reason you don't see those types of stories in the top 10 recommendations for WW very often.
    Do we have any numbers to back that up? It seems to have sold well, and while it definitely isn't as popular as some runs, people on forums like this saying they didn't like it isn't really an indication that it isn't well liked outside of a niche crowd.

    Which top 10 lists are these? It's not like we have a whole slew of all time classic Wonder Woman stories once you get past the Marston run. The only near universally generally agreed upon classics are Perez, Jimenez, Rucka and the extremely divisive Azzarello, and while all of those offer different things outside of Marston's vision, they have drawbacks of their own and weren't prevented from being upended either. I agree with kjn and Sacred Knight that this is an important part of the character and something feels like its missing without it. The comic industry being really bad at being able to do it doesn't change that, it just means WW is at more of a disadvantage than she is already.

  10. #130
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    I thought maybe putting her in a polyamorous relationship with Steve and someone else would make sense, given Marston himself.
    I'd be fine with that conceptually but I distrust DC's ability to do it well consistently. Some writers would do it well, but I fear far too many would turn it into some weird high school fantasy. I mean, if it could be handled right it'd be fantastic; keeps Steve around as a love interest while exploring Diana's sexuality, opens up doors for narratives other heroes aren't even looking at, and it fits nicely within the framework of Diana's character and Themyscrian culture. But DC would handle it like a 13 year old boy who just found out boobs are fun....and it'd be awful.

    Maybe if a writer did this right in some OGN first, and established a baseline for how to treat it that the monthly writers could follow.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Wait, Diana being desexualised is a bad thing now?
    Yes.

    There's a difference between sexuality and objectification. Diana shouldn't be objectified, but desexualizing her just makes her a robot. Besides, commentary on sex, gender relations, all that stuff, it's built into the DNA of the character. Pretending that this isn't part of who Diana is, is just ignoring who she is.
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  11. #131
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Wait, Diana being desexualised is a bad thing now?
    Yes and always has been. That's why she's become a cross between Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm and the Statue of Liberty, instead of the intellectual and sexual provocateur she was intended to be.

  12. #132
    Incredible Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I'd be fine with that conceptually but I distrust DC's ability to do it well consistently. Some writers would do it well, but I fear far too many would turn it into some weird high school fantasy. I mean, if it could be handled right it'd be fantastic; keeps Steve around as a love interest while exploring Diana's sexuality, opens up doors for narratives other heroes aren't even looking at, and it fits nicely within the framework of Diana's character and Themyscrian culture. But DC would handle it like a 13 year old boy who just found out boobs are fun....and it'd be awful.

    Maybe if a writer did this right in some OGN first, and established a baseline for how to treat it that the monthly writers could follow.......
    Yeah, guess that's my hangup with a lot of ideas for Wonder Woman writers or fans bring up. Could be interesting and work but I wouldn't trust DC editorial or most writers to handle it well.

  13. #133
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Now is Diana's most successful and relevant time of existence thanks to the movie which didn't use any bondage themes. Morrison's book is only popular among a niche crowd and is even more exploitative than the Golden Age stories. If you're looking for a modern take on those themes, that book isn't it.
    I disagree. It should be, but its not. Finally having a successful movie isn't the end all be all. It could be if its capitalized on and DC really put effort into a marketing machine behind her wholesale, but they don't do that. They just let the movie do its thing and continued to treat her as an afterthought otherwise. I see no reason for a different approach with 84. Not to mention while the movie was good it wasn't perfect either.

    And as others have said, there's no evidence whatsoever that Morrison's book is only popular with a niche crowd. Its not the best thing he's ever done nor the best WW story ever told, but it was a fairly good seller. That's not niche crowd material. And I disagree its exploitative.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 07-14-2020 at 11:45 AM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

    "“Your boos mean nothing, I’ve seen what makes you cheer!”

  14. #134
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    And as others have said, there's no evidence whatsoever that Morrison's book is only popular with a niche crowd. Its not the best thing he's ever done nor the best WW story ever told, but it was a fairly good seller. That's not niche crowd material. And I disagree its exploitative.
    There is also the fact that it's outside of the main continuity, and each installment is a few years apart. There is not a lot of stuff to continually discuss the way we get with a canon book. So even if people either really loved it or really hated it, there's not any action each month to keep the debates going.

    I agree it's far from Morrison's best and falls into some traps both his other work and other WW stuff avoids (he goes overboard with the friction between Diana and Hippolyta in the first volume, these Amazons have more reason to hate men than the Azz ones and are far less villainous but their wariness of men also goes overboard). But by the same token he does do some things better than others (avoiding the depraved dwarf depiction of Psycho being the biggest, getting what makes Etta an awesome character, not nerfing the Amazons abilities with tech etc). No reason we can't have it around, and even if he himself didn't nail the execution some of his thoughts about the WW character and going back to the foundations for inspiration are not in any way bad themselves.

  15. #135
    Extraordinary Member AmiMizuno's Avatar
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    Not all of Marston's bondage was meant to be sexual. With how Dc writes Diana. And how I feel Diana should just have one person. Other amazons can have multiple but Diana one

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