Would you care if Diana's main love interest was a woman?

[Ascended]

Finally having a successful movie isn't the end all be all. It could be if its capitalized on and DC really put effort into a marketing machine behind her wholesale, but they don't do that.

I was in Target the other day (strange how exciting that is after months stuck at home) and you know how much merchandise I saw for WW84?

None.

If this is the height of Diana's popularity and/or WB/DC's investment, it's not really an argument for much.

[kjn]

Not all of Marston's bondage was meant to be sexual. With how Dc writes Diana. And how I feel Diana should just have one person. Other amazons can have multiple but Diana one

While true that Marston's bondage with Wonder Woman wasn't always sexual, I would posit that it was nearly always either sexual or playful, and sometimes both. Diana's reaction to being tied up is not one of helplessness, but usually commenting on how badly she is being tied up by the villains.

As for a polyamorous Diana, I'm not necessarily against it, but I think there are lots of other stuff that should be prioritised. If the right writer comes with an idea for a strong story, then by all means go ahead, but to me it feels much more important to get a good Steve, a good Etta, and a couple villains going.

[AmiMizuno]

I don't know even with the right writer it's going to go wrong. It's better to have one person than many. You have to actually make the characters interesting. Dc can't do that. Also, do we really need to go all the way with the greek gods?

[Ascended]

As for a polyamorous Diana, I'm not necessarily against it, but I think there are lots of other stuff that should be prioritised. If the right writer comes with an idea for a strong story, then by all means go ahead, but to me it feels much more important to get a good Steve, a good Etta, and a couple villains going.

Gods yes; Diana herself needs some consolidation and refinement, her world needs building, her supporting cast and rogues......there's damn little about the mythos that doesn't need some degree of work. And all that should come before the relationship stuff. After all, if the love interest isn't a interesting and compelling character in their own right, nobody's gonna care about their relationship with Di. If Diana herself isn't interesting and consistent, a relationship won't fix it.

But once the foundation is secure? I see no real reason not to take Diana in a poly direction, beyond the fact that DC wouldn't handle it right 95% of the time. But if they manage to fix all the crap that needs fixing, then the quality of their craft will have improved, so.....might be viable?

[Sacred Knight]

I was in Target the other day (strange how exciting that is after months stuck at home) and you know how much merchandise I saw for WW84?

None.

If this is the height of Diana's popularity and/or WB/DC's investment, it's not really an argument for much.

Right, its freaking mindboggling.

And I mean, I don't mean to belittle her having a successful major motion picture. That was a big deal. And I dunno, maybe that should qualify it by default as being the best time for the character. I can at least see the argument. Maybe I'm erroneously holding too much against the really low standard. But its just that this could have been huge for her in a much more substantial way and DC just doesn't give a ****, and its maddening.

[PopQuezy]

I was in Target the other day (strange how exciting that is after months stuck at home) and you know how much merchandise I saw for WW84?

None.

If this is the height of Diana's popularity and/or WB/DC's investment, it's not really an argument for much.

Well, to be fair, we are in the middle of a pandemic, and I haven't seen much merchandise for any movies that were originally supposed to release. I have seen the Wonder Woman 84 Doritoes at Target, at least.

That being said, if it were not for the pandemic, it seems there were a lot of deals in place for the movie. I've seen action figures, dolls, Doritos, Pepsi products, Revlon makeup, clothing, Funko Pops, a LEGO set, Halloween costumes and an online Wonder Woman game all to promote the movie. If we were under normal circumstances, I would argue there would be a lot more hype for this movie and its merchandise as Wonder Woman was a top ten merchandise seller in 2017.

[Agent Z]

Yes and always has been. That's why she's become a cross between Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm and the Statue of Liberty, instead of the intellectual and sexual provocateur she was intended to be.

..... I have no idea who that is, so I’ll just say I don’t agree.

Yes.

There's a difference between sexuality and objectification. Diana shouldn't be objectified, but desexualizing her just makes her a robot. Besides, commentary on sex, gender relations, all that stuff, it's built into the DNA of the character. Pretending that this isn't part of who Diana is, is just ignoring who she is.

I feel this ignores other facets of Diana that don't revolve around sex. As I said, it often feels like writers sensationalize sex so much and I think this affects how fans view it to an extent. Looking at Diana across the books, I cannot say she is a robot.

Well, to be fair, we are in the middle of a pandemic, and I haven't seen much merchandise for any movies that were originally supposed to release. I have seen the Wonder Woman 84 Doritoes at Target, at least.

That being said, if it were not for the pandemic, it seems there were a lot of deals in place for the movie. I've seen action figures, dolls, Doritos, Pepsi products, Revlon makeup, clothing, Funko Pops, a LEGO set, Halloween costumes and an online Wonder Woman game all to promote the movie. If we were under normal circumstances, I would argue there would be a lot more hype for this movie and its merchandise as Wonder Woman was a top ten merchandise seller in 2017.

Well said.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well, to be fair, we are in the middle of a pandemic, and I haven't seen much merchandise for any movies that were originally supposed to release. I have seen the Wonder Woman 84 Doritoes at Target, at least.

That being said, if it were not for the pandemic, it seems there were a lot of deals in place for the movie. I've seen action figures, dolls, Doritos, Pepsi products, Revlon makeup, clothing, Funko Pops, a LEGO set, Halloween costumes and an online Wonder Woman game all to promote the movie. If we were under normal circumstances, I would argue there would be a lot more hype for this movie and its merchandise as Wonder Woman was a top ten merchandise seller in 2017.

Yeah, the pandemic is making the marketing front on WW84 a bit hard to judge, and not helped by the movie being pushed back.

Still, one very good (but not perfect) Wonder Woman movie isn't the best argument against aspects of her world not being focused on in the comics. Comics wise, the best thing we got to coincide with the DCEU was Rucka's run, and that was released around the time of BvS, not even her solo. By the time her solo came out, Rucka was either wrapping up or we were into the Robinson run. Later the only noteworthy thing we got was Earth One volume 2, while the main comics continued to be underwhelming. We got one DTV which was just ok. Wonder Woman is a criminally underutilized IP, and DC/WB continues to not do much with her. The movies are important, but can't do the heavy lifting by themselves, especially if the parent company isn't going to take advantage of the opportunities the movies create to help them.

I feel this ignores other facets of Diana that don't revolve around sex. As I said, it often feels like writers sensationalize sex so much and I think this affects how fans view it to an extent. Looking at Diana across the books, I cannot say she is a robot.

It's not ignoring the other facets. The sex stuff is what is being ignored, so people are arguing in favor for the whole package, not having her be pigeonholed.

[AmiMizuno]

The thing is the sex stuff has always been subtle never in your face. It's the way it's handled, Morrison. It's overtime. It's not bad but compared with the fact Marston did a balance of women being tied down and the sex stuff. The thing is I feel people would just make it too weird. The bracelets were to be about her amazonian heritage being tied to love.

[Ascended]

Right, its freaking mindboggling.

And I mean, I don't mean to belittle her having a successful major motion picture. That was a big deal. And I dunno, maybe that should qualify it by default as being the best time for the character. I can at least see the argument. Maybe I'm erroneously holding too much against the really low standard. But its just that this could have been huge for her in a much more substantial way and DC just doesn't give a ****, and its maddening.

I think maybe you're holding too much against the low standard, but you're not wrong either; Diana's had one movie that WB ignored and barely did any merchandising for (compared to what other superhero movies enjoy). And the movie was a big damn deal and we shouldn't marginalize it, it helped make Diana relevant to the general audience again for the first time in decades. But WB ignored it as much as they could, and the new movie isn't getting much hype either. Which brings me to my next point....

Well, to be fair, we are in the middle of a pandemic, and I haven't seen much merchandise for any movies that were originally supposed to release. I have seen the Wonder Woman 84 Doritoes at Target, at least.

Yeah, the pandemic has screwed up stuff. But that excuse only takes you so far. It's not like retailers like Target and Wal-Mart stopped getting shipments in; they've continued to do business both physically and online. We're less than a month away from WW84's current release date, so what's the excuse for the lack of merchandise? Yes, that release date might be pushed back again, but it might not. And if it is pushed back again? That's not gonna stop people from buying merchandise. There's no justification for WB not pushing merchandise here and the pandemic hasn't stopped efforts with other movies. I mean, crap, that Trolls film didn't even hit theaters and still had more stuff on the shelf than WW84.

It's not ignoring the other facets. The sex stuff is what is being ignored, so people are arguing in favor for the whole package, not having her be pigeonholed.

Exactly. Obviously Diana is more than the commentary on sex, and nobody is asking for that to be the *only* facet of her character that gets page time. But it's part of who she is, and ignoring it not only ignores part of Diana, but ignores part of the feminist themes and topics she's designed to explore.

[PopQuezy]

Yeah, the pandemic is making the marketing front on WW84 a bit hard to judge, and not helped by the movie being pushed back.

Still, one very good (but not perfect) Wonder Woman movie isn't the best argument against aspects of her world not being focused on in the comics. Comics wise, the best thing we got to coincide with the DCEU was Rucka's run, and that was released around the time of BvS, not even her solo. By the time her solo came out, Rucka was either wrapping up or we were into the Robinson run. Later the only noteworthy thing we got was Earth One volume 2, while the main comics continued to be underwhelming. We got one DTV which was just ok. Wonder Woman is a criminally underutilized IP, and DC/WB continues to not do much with her. The movies are important, but can't do the heavy lifting by themselves, especially if the parent company isn't going to take advantage of the opportunities the movies create to help them.



It's not ignoring the other facets. The sex stuff is what is being ignored, so people are arguing in favor for the whole package, not having her be pigeonholed.

Hmmm...to me, it seems we're having a discussion regarding planning and intention vs. execution. Yes, Rucka's run started well before the release of the Wonder Woman film. However, during the time of the film's release, Wonder Woman: Year One was released for trade and was sold in major bookstores like Barnes and Noble. This was a similar strategy WB/DC used for the Suicide Squad film released in 2016, and that particular Suicide Squad trade was one of the top five trades released for DC that year. While I can't say if Wonder Woman: Year One was a top ten seller for DC that year, it did debut as number one for trades and graphic novels. Around that time for free comic book day, WB/DC also offered the first issue of The Lies and Year One for free during the time of the movie, as well.

I think it's easy to say, in hindsight, that DC didn't put effort into Wonder Woman's comics after the success of her first film, but I would vehemently disagree. I remember people being hesitantly optimistic about Robinson's announcement as the new Wonder Woman writer, and people were outright elated when G. Willow Wilson was announced. Hell, some people saw it as a huge win for DC and Wonder Woman after Wilson's extremely successful run on Ms. Marvel. Even The New York Times - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/14/b...ow-wilson.html - and Entertainment Weekly - https://ew.com/books/2018/11/14/g-wi...man-interview/ - did interviews with Wilson regarding her vision of Wonder Woman. Yes, both runs were ultimately rejected - as best as I can tell - by the audience, but that does not mean that these authors were not seen as "wins" at the time of their announcement. So while Earth One Vol 2 is the only "noteworthy" comic contribution to Wonder Woman around the time, I would not say it was not for DC Comic's lack of trying with the character or the publication. Especially since around this time, Wonder Woman: The True Amazon, an Eisner Award-winning graphic novel, was also released. According to this Amazon review - https://www.amazon.com/Wonder-Woman-...w%20and%20love. - the book was also a New York Times Bestseller.

Next, yes it's disappointing that we've only gotten one DTV; however, isn't that still effort? If we have to wait another decade before another DTV for Wonder Woman then WB/DC still does not see Diana as valuable, but I am going to wait until after the DC FANDOME before I make that proclamation. DC is seemingly rebooting its animated universe and if Wonder Woman isn't given a new announcement for a DTV or animated series, then I call foul after Superman and Batman already have their films announced. However, it has not even been a year since the DTV was released.

I also think DC Superhero Girls should be mentioned in this conversation a little more. It seemingly is a merchandising juggernaut. Wonder Woman is the face of the franchise, and Ares and Cheetah are represented as the big bads.

The film should not do all the havy lifting by itself; however, I would argue it is not. Just because something is not well received or successful doesn't erase the planning and intentions for success the company originally had for the property. Just ask Green Lantern after the Ryan Reynolds film.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think it's easy to say, in hindsight, that DC didn't put effort into Wonder Woman's comics after the success of her first film, but I would vehemently disagree. I remember people being hesitantly optimistic about Robinson's announcement as the new Wonder Woman writer, and people were outright elated when G. Willow Wilson was announced. Hell, some people saw it as a huge win for DC and Wonder Woman after Wilson's extremely successful run on Ms. Marvel. Even The New York Times - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/14/b...ow-wilson.html - and Entertainment Weekly - https://ew.com/books/2018/11/14/g-wi...man-interview/ - did interviews with Wilson regarding her vision of Wonder Woman. Yes, both runs were ultimately rejected - as best as I can tell - by the audience, but that does not mean that these authors were not seen as "wins" at the time of their announcement. So while Earth One Vol 2 is the only "noteworthy" comic contribution to Wonder Woman around the time, I would not say it was not for DC Comic's lack of trying with the character or the publication. Especially since around this time, Wonder Woman: The True Amazon, an Eisner Award-winning graphic novel, was also released. According to this Amazon review - https://www.amazon.com/Wonder-Woman-...w%20and%20love. - the book was also a New York Times Bestseller.

Next, yes it's disappointing that we've only gotten one DTV; however, isn't that still effort? If we have to wait another decade before another DTV for Wonder Woman then WB/DC still does not see Diana as valuable, but I am going to wait until after the DC FANDOME before I make that proclamation. DC is seemingly rebooting its animated universe and if Wonder Woman isn't given a new announcement for a DTV or animated series, then I call foul after Superman and Batman already have their films announced. However, it has not even been a year since the DTV was released..

Eh, IDK considering what a hit the film was and how she was the only saving grace of the DCEU at that time (aside from maybe Margot as Harley), and how she is so far behind the other members of the Trinity in media pushes, that still strikes me as half assed. Announcing potentially new exciting writers for the one ongoing she has isn't the be all end all. And I think execution DOES matter here. Like you say, Robinson's announcement wasn't fully embraced, people were generally cautiously optimistic at best considering the stuff he was being tasked to write about and "Cry For Justice." They get a name like Robinson and there intent is to have him write about editorially induced characters that the fandom wasn't too thrilled about (Grail and Jason)? Not helped by him executing it in the worst way possible. Wilson on the other hand did receive a positive response when she was announced. However, ultimately her run was kind of boring and didn't amount to much. Most of that I think is her not being well suited for Wonder Woman, but some stuff like the chaotic art situation and having Cheetah come in at a certain point to tie into a larger event wasn't helping things, and makes you wonder about other editorial interference she may have had to deal with. Even with these supposed wins, they were sabotaging themselves and the character. The outside continuity books are better, but compared the pushes Batman gets even when he doesn't have a big film out, that's still not saying too much.

[Koriand'r]

..... I have no idea who that is, so I’ll just say I don’t agree.

Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm...a sweet, wholesome and totally sexless heroine from a 19th century children's book.

REBECCA.jpg

The Statue of Liberty...a cold, totally sexless and unmoving monument to lies some Americans say but don't put into practice.

STATUE.jpg

The point is Wonder Woman has lost a lot of what originally made her exciting because of some people's puritanical ideas about sex. And if sex is "sensationalized" it's because sex sells and is sensational when done correctly.

[Gaius]

Saying Wonder Woman comes off like a robot or statue because of some vague and nebulous notion like "de-sexualized" is kind of dumb honestly.

[Ascended]

And if sex is "sensationalized" it's because sex sells and is sensational when done correctly.

Let's not forget that in America, sex is taboo but also talked about everywhere, all the time, in all discussions. It's hard to have a conversation about it that doesn't end up looking, at least from some angles, sensationalized. And to write a superhero narrative that dives into those themes without looking sensationalized is even harder, since every facet of the superhero narrative is built on sensationalized extremes.

Saying Wonder Woman comes off like a robot or statue because of some vague and nebulous notion like "de-sexualized" is kind of dumb honestly.

I said what I said and I stand by it.

And there's nothing "vague" about it. It's a pretty cleanly defined term and problem we're talking about. It's not the end-all be-all of course, Diana's never lost her compassion or empathy even if she's lost her libido, but if you don't see why it's a problem, go try and take Lois Lane out of Superman's life without Clark finding a new love interest to share his affection and bed. See how well that goes over. It's not okay for Clark, it's not okay for Diana. The only difference is, DC *did* take Diana's love interest away for years, and people just got used to it. But being accustomed to something doesn't mean that thing is okay.