Composite Live Action Superhero vs Luffy

[moonknight11]

The rubber Captain of the straw hats is facing a composite of several live action superheros. He's not facing a composite of every single one, just a select few.

Well do 2 battles. 1 against a regular composite and 1 against a stacked aggregate.

The heroes merged together:

DCEU Superman
DCEU Aquaman
MCU Thor
MCU Captain America
MCU Dr. Strange
FOX Deadpool
FOX Nightcrawler

Can these combined powers and equipment take on the straw hat pirate's great abilities?

All these characters carry a bunch of weapons but the only thing the merged character gets is Caps Shield and Stormbreaker, and I guess they'll get Aquamans trident too but it's strapped across their back as an extra weapon.

Battle takes place in MCU wakanda where banner fought Cull.

[Nik Hasta]

Hmmm... so the question that needs answering is whether Luffy is faster than Cavilman...

Let's see, Wonder Woman was a reasonably high level bullet timer and Flash could perceive her as effectively a statue. Cavilman could sort of follow Flash but couldn't really tag him.

Luffy sailed merrily past bullet timing a /long/ time ago and has been racking up good speed feats for some time. Luffy can also react to things before they happen through his precog ability.

I'll assume even speed for the sake of argument for a moment.

Strange is also a very potent guy to add to the mix, his showing against Thanos was pretty powerful, especially showcasing his ability to spam portals at will.

They could probably just BFR him into the Mirror Dimension thing or something. That'd work.

[Twickster]

You can also have portal cutting, ala Cull Obsidian. Luffy, while durable, isn't tanking that.

Re. speed, I *think* WOD was it that Captain Kuro's speed technique *waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay* back in the first arc, which as basically "disappear from sight superspeed" was roughly equivalent to CP9's soru, only Kuro couldn't control where he was going. And Luffy, even first arc Luffy, was tagging that guy. Even assuming composite-man is faster (which I highly doubt), Luffy's been tagging people massively faster than he was since the first arc.

[big_adventure]

Even assuming composite-man is faster (which I highly doubt), Luffy's been tagging people massively faster than he was since the first arc.

Yeah, but... that's kind of the definition of PIS. Deathstroke tags the Flash with impunity; we don't say that somehow he ignores the 30 orders of magnitude difference in their speed because muffin button or something.

[Nik Hasta]

Yeah, but... that's kind of the definition of PIS. Deathstroke tags the Flash with impunity; we don't say that somehow he ignores the 30 orders of magnitude difference in their speed because muffin button or something.

Technically it isn't.

PIS implies that people forget powers in order to make the plot work. The PIS in Deathstroke example you cited is Flash forgetting that he can just run Deathstroke to Australia. Kuro, the primary example Twickster is mentioning, didn't forget any powers. He was specifically and emphatically trying to blitz Luffy and got tagged.

You could try and argue that it's SMvsFL but, as Twickster noted, this is a pretty consistent thing in the series so it's not an outlier than would fall under that jurisdiction.

Combine that with the fact that Luffy is a speedster in his own right and has, as of recent developments, actual precog into the bargain it's very much part of the character.

[big_adventure]

Technically it isn't.

PIS implies that people forget powers in order to make the plot work. The PIS in Deathstroke example you cited is Flash forgetting that he can just run Deathstroke to Australia. Kuro, the primary example Twickster is mentioning, didn't forget any powers. He was specifically and emphatically trying to blitz Luffy and got tagged.

You could try and argue that it's SMvsFL but, as Twickster noted, this is a pretty consistent thing in the series so it's not an outlier than would fall under that jurisdiction.

Combine that with the fact that Luffy is a speedster in his own right and has, as of recent developments, actual precog into the bargain it's very much part of the character.

Eh, by that argument Luffy can tag the Flash. Now, I'm all for "Luffy is as fast as Kuro" as the argument. But "Luffy can just ignore 100x speed differences 'cause Luffy" makes him very difficult to Rumble, doesn't it?

[Twickster]

Eh, by that argument Luffy can tag the Flash. Now, I'm all for "Luffy is as fast as Kuro" as the argument. But "Luffy can just ignore 100x speed differences 'cause Luffy" makes him very difficult to Rumble, doesn't it?

The point is that in this case there is no 100x speed difference. By all respects, speed might even be comparable.

Even assuming that Luffy is *slightly* slower than Composite Man (which is debatable), Luffy has consistent feats of tagging people *significantly* faster than he is.

[Nik Hasta]

Eh, by that argument Luffy can tag the Flash. Now, I'm all for "Luffy is as fast as Kuro" as the argument. But "Luffy can just ignore 100x speed differences 'cause Luffy" makes him very difficult to Rumble, doesn't it?

Bit of a reductive reading of my post there but hey ho.

Okay, for one, the difference between Flash and Kuro is like a metric ton. I'm not saying that Luffy could tag the Flash because Flash has feats that put him wildly beyond what Luffy has been shown to do.

What I would argue is that Luffy has a proven track record of encountering people who are faster than him, coping well and ultimately winning despite the speed differential.

In the case of this match, my point was more as follows:

DCEU Superman is marginally below the Flash of his universe in terms of speed. Flash is capable of perceiving mid to high end bullet timers as effectively statues which gives us a rough ballpark of Cavilman's speed.

As I noted in my first post, Luffy went past standard bullet timer in speed hundreds of chapters ago and has only gotten much faster since. However, the exact comparison between the two is hard to define.

First, if Cavilman is faster it's not going to be by much and second Luffy's track record of making it work against foes faster than himself combined with his precognitive abilities should render a small speed differential moot.

I'm not saying, as you seemed to interpret, that Luffy gets a free pass on any speed debate because of shut up.

[Nik Hasta]

Twickster making my point for me in half the words, good stuff XD

[Twickster]

Which is not to say I think Luffy is winning here (Doctor Strange portal cutting/dimension dump shenanigans are no joke), only that I don't think going on a physical brawl is the way to go, and I certainly dont think Luffy is going to be blitzed by c-man.

[Nik Hasta]

Which is not to say I think Luffy is winning here (Doctor Strange portal cutting/dimension dump shenanigans are no joke), only that I don't think going on a physical brawl is the way to go, and I certainly dont think Luffy is going to be blitzed by c-man.

Agree on this take.

[Kusanagi]

I think Strange's magic and Pool's regen make the difference here. I believe speed is comparable, I believe power is comparable, standard durability is going to be pretty crazy for both, so strange's esoteric abilities and the fact that he'll be healing himself the entire fight should be what puts him over the top.

[big_adventure]

Bit of a reductive reading of my post there but hey ho.

Okay, for one, the difference between Flash and Kuro is like a metric ton. I'm not saying that Luffy could tag the Flash because Flash has feats that put him wildly beyond what Luffy has been shown to do.

What I would argue is that Luffy has a proven track record of encountering people who are faster than him, coping well and ultimately winning despite the speed differential.

In the case of this match, my point was more as follows:

DCEU Superman is marginally below the Flash of his universe in terms of speed. Flash is capable of perceiving mid to high end bullet timers as effectively statues which gives us a rough ballpark of Cavilman's speed.

As I noted in my first post, Luffy went past standard bullet timer in speed hundreds of chapters ago and has only gotten much faster since. However, the exact comparison between the two is hard to define.

First, if Cavilman is faster it's not going to be by much and second Luffy's track record of making it work against foes faster than himself combined with his precognitive abilities should render a small speed differential moot.

I'm not saying, as you seemed to interpret, that Luffy gets a free pass on any speed debate because of shut up.

OK, let's try to rein this in a bit, please? I'm not arguing with you on the substance of the rumble. What I am saying is that it goes generally against what we have always done around here to say that someone who is significantly faster than someone else can't use that speed to dominate a fight when the other being simply isn't fast enough to deal with them.

If Kuro is double Luffy's speed, it shouldn't matter how "good" Luffy is, without some kind of explicit power to ignore speed differences, he should just get tagged a limitless number of times without ever being to tag the other. Now, if we want to say that Luffy has some Goku in him, where he can be getting dominated in the fight and learn in real time how to get better (which is explicitly faster in DB land), I'm cool with that. If it's because he's got significant enough precog to handle the speed difference, again, okie dokie. If it's just "the writer needs him to do better than he has any reason to be able to do" then we've got rules for that. That's it.

[Nik Hasta]

OK, let's try to rein this in a bit, please? I'm not arguing with you on the substance of the rumble. What I am saying is that it goes generally against what we have always done around here to say that someone who is significantly faster than someone else can't use that speed to dominate a fight when the other being simply isn't fast enough to deal with them.

If Kuro is double Luffy's speed, it shouldn't matter how "good" Luffy is, without some kind of explicit power to ignore speed differences, he should just get tagged a limitless number of times without ever being to tag the other. Now, if we want to say that Luffy has some Goku in him, where he can be getting dominated in the fight and learn in real time how to get better (which is explicitly faster in DB land), I'm cool with that. If it's because he's got significant enough precog to handle the speed difference, again, okie dokie. If it's just "the writer needs him to do better than he has any reason to be able to do" then we've got rules for that. That's it.

You asking me to rein it in is a bit odd when you were the one to respond with a hyperbolic "Oh so now Luffy can tag absolutely anyone?!" which is not either Twickster or I wrote.

The character has a history of tagging opponents who are presented in the story as faster than him. As far as I can recall, there isn't an in-text explanation as to why he does this so often but he does do it a lot. You could argue that it's just shonen growth, a la Goku, but I don't see how that changes anything.

It's not PIS because no one is forgetting their speed as we can tell, dudes come at Luffy going fast and he hits them. Like, to use the Deathstroke example, both Deathstroke and Flash have other speed feats that show their respective capacities as well as their respective presentations in text. Flash is presented as the fastest man on earth who can run to Germany and back in less than a second. Deathstroke is presented as skillful but only slightly above human dude. Ergo, Deathstroke tagging Flash requires PIS on Flash's part because Flash has to forget his own capabilities to make the plot go.

Luffy on the other hand, has his own speed feats and is presented in the manga tradition of "character of significantly above normal human speed who gradually gets into anime-style speedster-ing," that is common to the medium. The other people (Kuro/Bellamy/Blueno/Lucci/etc) have speed feats of /apparently being faster than Luffy/ in terms of things they have done when they show up and the presentation of being "some measure of superspeed," in universe.

And Luffy then tags them while they use their speed to its apparent maximum. It's not PIS if no one is being Stupid, that's what the S stands for.

Hence why I said it would be more appropriate for you to try and flag it with SMvsFL, which refers to characters operating outside of established capacities in certain instances. There might be a case there, but Luffy does this stuff pretty consistently so I don't think it can be SMvsFL because it's how the character is. It's an in-narrative thing that he does.

To be clear, Obviously if someone has significantly better speedfeats than Luffy along with a suitable offensive game, they are likely going to beat him as is correct.

If they aren't that much better, then there is more of a case for Luffy being able to manage a win here and there because, in narrative, he is good at this kind of fight.

[The Arbiter]

OK, let's try to rein this in a bit, please? I'm not arguing with you on the substance of the rumble. What I am saying is that it goes generally against what we have always done around here to say that someone who is significantly faster than someone else can't use that speed to dominate a fight when the other being simply isn't fast enough to deal with them.

If Kuro is double Luffy's speed, it shouldn't matter how "good" Luffy is, without some kind of explicit power to ignore speed differences, he should just get tagged a limitless number of times without ever being to tag the other. Now, if we want to say that Luffy has some Goku in him, where he can be getting dominated in the fight and learn in real time how to get better (which is explicitly faster in DB land), I'm cool with that. If it's because he's got significant enough precog to handle the speed difference, again, okie dokie. If it's just "the writer needs him to do better than he has any reason to be able to do" then we've got rules for that. That's it.

Double speed is within my scope of believability as far as Luffy overcoming an edge to get the occasional crucial blow. That's like Croc vs Batman. Dude has a huuuge edge but it's still believable the slower powerhouse can eventually nail him.

When its like 3-5x faster I start not really agreeing. 10x + forget about it.

Just how much faster than Luffy was Kuro? Or is it really hard to give exact guesses on that?