Composite Live Action Superhero vs Luffy

[Nik Hasta]

Just how much faster than Luffy was Kuro? Or is it really hard to give exact guesses on that?

Hard to figure out. Dude literally disappears from sight and is able to make attacks like a... 30 metre area or something with no one seeing him. Like people are just falling down dead and slash marks are appearing on the wall at different locations. So like, a lot?

Despite this, Luffy tags him out of the move twice and straight up dodges it once as well. He takes other hits but he still manages it.

With Bellamy, Bellamy is zipping around, destroying things invisibly, taunting Luffy that he can't keep up and then Luffy one-punches him out of the technique no problem.

Blueno has the whole "WTF? I was faster than you earlier today," because he had been blitzing him less than 24 hours earlier and Luffy is like "Nah, I can just hit you and dodge you now," and does that.

Lucci, same deal. Guy was blitzing him and then Luffy is able to keep up.

It happens a lot.

[big_adventure]

You asking me to rein it in is a bit odd when you were the one to respond with a hyperbolic "Oh so now Luffy can tag absolutely anyone?!" which is not either Twickster or I wrote.

The character has a history of tagging opponents who are presented in the story as faster than him. As far as I can recall, there isn't an in-text explanation as to why he does this so often but he does do it a lot. You could argue that it's just shonen growth, a la Goku, but I don't see how that changes anything.

It's not PIS because no one is forgetting their speed as we can tell, dudes come at Luffy going fast and he hits them. Like, to use the Deathstroke example, both Deathstroke and Flash have other speed feats that show their respective capacities as well as their respective presentations in text. Flash is presented as the fastest man on earth who can run to Germany and back in less than a second. Deathstroke is presented as skillful but only slightly above human dude. Ergo, Deathstroke tagging Flash requires PIS on Flash's part because Flash has to forget his own capabilities to make the plot go.

Luffy on the other hand, has his own speed feats and is presented in the manga tradition of "character of significantly above normal human speed who gradually gets into anime-style speedster-ing," that is common to the medium. The other people (Kuro/Bellamy/Blueno/Lucci/etc) have speed feats of /apparently being faster than Luffy/ in terms of things they have done when they show up and the presentation of being "some measure of superspeed," in universe.

And Luffy then tags them while they use their speed to its apparent maximum. It's not PIS if no one is being Stupid, that's what the S stands for.

Hence why I said it would be more appropriate for you to try and flag it with SMvsFL, which refers to characters operating outside of established capacities in certain instances. There might be a case there, but Luffy does this stuff pretty consistently so I don't think it can be SMvsFL because it's how the character is. It's an in-narrative thing that he does.

To be clear, Obviously if someone has significantly better speedfeats than Luffy along with a suitable offensive game, they are likely going to beat him as is correct.

If they aren't that much better, then there is more of a case for Luffy being able to manage a win here and there because, in narrative, he is good at this kind of fight.

Actually, I didn't go as far as that in anything I said, but I REALLY don't see any value in arguing about it.

People beat much faster people then them ALL THE TIME in all kinds of media: they even give pseudo-explanations as to how they do it: Wolverine beats Speed Demon because "he's experienced at fighting speedsters." Thor rips Quicksilver out of a blitz and smashes him into the floor because "I have fought much faster people than you." In story, it happens because without it, the protagonist loses and the story ends - or at the very least, they cannot win and it drags on forever. Luffy is absolutely positively the hero of his story. He kinda has to win for One Piece to go on properly.

For THIS Rumble, I don't know the specifics enough to relatively judge Luffy's speed against Cavill's. If Cavill is twice as fast, though, I don't see how Luffy is every hitting that composite, moreover, that composite can rain down so much hell on Luffy that he's not going to have time to do anything about it. If Cavilll is 10% faster or the same, sure, that should be fine without something kind of explicit.

Again, that's for me. Because if not, it's a really slippery slope and Rumbles get complicated.

[big_adventure]

Hard to figure out. Dude literally disappears from sight and is able to make attacks like a... 30 metre area or something with no one seeing him. Like people are just falling down dead and slash marks are appearing on the wall at different locations. So like, a lot?

Despite this, Luffy tags him out of the move twice and straight up dodges it once as well. He takes other hits but he still manages it.

With Bellamy, Bellamy is zipping around, destroying things invisibly, taunting Luffy that he can't keep up and then Luffy one-punches him out of the technique no problem.

Blueno has the whole "WTF? I was faster than you earlier today," because he had been blitzing him less than 24 hours earlier and Luffy is like "Nah, I can just hit you and dodge you now," and does that.

Lucci, same deal. Guy was blitzing him and then Luffy is able to keep up.

It happens a lot.

Which sounds a lot like the Shonen protagonist "I get better during the fight or during the day" thing. Which is fine.

[Nik Hasta]

Which sounds a lot like the Shonen protagonist "I get better during the fight or during the day" thing. Which is fine.

I had a whole thing but whatever.

For clarity though, if you're not intending to say that we're arguing that Luffy can beat anyone just because, maybe rephrase things like the below post:

Eh, by that argument Luffy can tag the Flash. Now, I'm all for "Luffy is as fast as Kuro" as the argument. But "Luffy can just ignore 100x speed differences 'cause Luffy" makes him very difficult to Rumble, doesn't it?

Makes it confusing when it seems like that's what your saying.

And I mean that without shade. Tone and intention can be hard to figure out over text and this might have been meant as... I don't know, not what it appears to be? But yeah, apologies if I came across as overly hostile in my response.

[The Drunkard Kid]

To be fair, with Kuro, the issue was that he wasn't as physically fast as Kuro was, but guys reflexes seemed to be fair Kuro's (who can't control that speed at all and just attacks at random). Bellamy was moving faster than Luffy had shown to be able to, but so do bullets and Luffy has no problem reacting to those, either, so it seems more that his ability to dodge and counter was faster than Bellamy's ability to move and strike.

With Blueno, it was more that Luffy's reflexes were fast enough to keep up with Blueno, but he was mentally conflicted due to Robin's apparent betrayal and wasn't able to keep his head in the game during their first fight. The moment that Nami revealed that Robin had betrayed them in an attempt to sacrifice herself in exchange for their safety, Luffy snapped out of it and pretty casually got out of the spot he had been such in after being launched away by Lucci(?) at the end of his first fight with CP9. Heck, when he fought Blueno, he actually showed that he was able to keep up with Soru speeds enough to have figured out the trick they use to move at those speeds, and then combined that with the trick he had been developing since his legitimate curb-stomp loss against Aokiji, allowing Gear 2nd to move at Soru speeds, even from the perspective of a Soru user. This also explains why he was able to just barely react to Lucci (whose Soru was presumably faster than Blueno's) in his base form, and just outright blitz him with Gear 2nd.

Now, he's much faster in his base form, can access Gear 2nd much quicker, and had gotten a lot more proficient at combat precog, which should allow him to react to people marginally faster than him. Which should be of little help against an AOE dimension dump from someone of comparable or superior speed to him, though it should allow him to avoid getting a limb cut off by a Sling Ring portal, by letting him know that that it's what SuperStrange is planning to do.

[big_adventure]

I had a whole thing but whatever.

For clarity though, if you're not intending to say that we're arguing that Luffy can beat anyone just because, maybe rephrase things like the below post:



Makes it confusing when it seems like that's what your saying.

And I mean that without shade. Tone and intention can be hard to figure out over text and this might have been meant as... I don't know, not what it appears to be? But yeah, apologies if I came across as overly hostile in my response.

No problem here Nik! Yeah, I wasn't slamming you, nor positing that you were claiming that Luffy specifically can ignore those kinds of differences. I was more trying to ensure that such a thing WAS NOT what you were trying to do. I equally apologize, as it's clear that my meaning wasn't all that clear.

Anyway, Luffy is very skilled and seems very capable of getting better, both physically and skill-wise, during a fight. He's also got some precog. All of which would let him deal with some (small) speed disadvantage as long as he wasn't down all of those other things as well.

[moonknight11]

What if Luffy has a speed advantage? Before I made the thread I figured he had one, which is why I included Deadpool.

Does he pack the oomph to overcome Superman+Thor durability being backed by healing?

[Nik Hasta]

What if Luffy has a speed advantage? Before I made the thread I figured he had one, which is why I included Deadpool.

Does he pack the oomph to overcome Superman+Thor durability being backed by healing?

Highest durability fear from the composite is Thor soaking the sun powered forge beam right?

I don't know how that translates into blunt trauma resistance. Luffy is like absurdly strong than MCU Hulk in terms of stuff he's done but it's hard to tell where the composite lies.

[Twickster]

I would think C-Man is significantly *less* strong than Luffy, Thor feats regardless. And Thor doesn't bring that much into the equation either, given Luffy's immune to electricity.

Its really Doctor Strange elements that win it here. Hard to counter a d-dump and/or portal cut. Also, Deadpool is, by all respects, unkillable (save for complete disintegration I suppose). Dude regenned from dismemberment. Which means Luffy isn't winning by attrition either.

[big_adventure]

What if Luffy has a speed advantage? Before I made the thread I figured he had one, which is why I included Deadpool.

Does he pack the oomph to overcome Superman+Thor durability being backed by healing?

Well, the flow chart would go about like this:

Is Luffy blitz-level faster? If no, he probably loses directly by getting chucked into the mirror dimension or catching Stormbreaker in the head or something.

If yes:

Can Luffy actually do damage? Because if he can, even Deadpool can be ten-counted. Plus none of these guys are immune to getting slightly stunned or what have you when they take a shot to the head, so as long as he keeps the pressure on, assuming that pressure does some damage, he should eventually get to 10-count level.

As far as the durability of the composite: that's a hard point to address. Basically it comes down to Thor: if the IW star feat counts, Luffy isn't really hurting the guy AT ALL, and if he manages anything, the combo of Deadpool healing plus Thor's own healing combined with Cavill's speed likely takes care of that in real time. One could make an argument that there are reasons that it should count: Thor had an explicit powerup at the end of Ragnarok, and that was almost the only time his durability was put to the test after (outside of fighting his sister, but she was explicitly stronger, so...). The issues, of course, are that the Ragnarok feat is pretty far above the baseline we have for him outside of that feat, AND that the OTHER durability showing we have post-powerup, was when he was somehow beaten insensate, offscreen, by some combo of Thanos, the Children, and the weapons aboard Sanctuary, none of whom would seem to operate at "neutron star" levels of energy. So I think that the current board standard is to take the star-tanking scene with a block of salt.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I will point out that Cavillman also has Regen, if he's in direct sunlight.

[Nik Hasta]

Luffy's strongest hits, note that these involve transforming into his Gear Fourth form, has him punching Donflamingo so hard that the force of him hitting the ground literally flips over significant chunks of the city he landed in. Like, it upended the bedrock the city was built upon and flipped entire districts over.

Where's the page...



Yeah, like that's an absurdly hard hit.

What's worth noting is that he punched through Donflamingo's own attack, his defensive spiderweb technique and Donflamingo himself (who is a physical beast) and then down to flip the city in one hit. I don't think anyone in DCEU or MCU has come close to tanking a hit of that level of raw strength.

Now, base Luffy is not as strong as that but he's still like... okay, how about this:

Pre timeskip, Luffy was one-shotting kaiju, punching people to other countries, flipping multiple buildings over by punching someone up through the bedrock of the city and other such ridiculous stuff.

He then encounters CP9 and his normal hits can't damage them through their defensive technique - Tekkai.

Luffy then levels up and uses Gear Second to break through Tekkai and knock people the heck out. He also has Gear Third which specifically hits even harder than Gear Second.

Later, Luffy and his crew faced off against a Pacifista - a robot soldier effectively. Fighting one Pacifista and beating it required the entire crew working in concert hitting with their strongest moves in sequence and Luffy delivering the coup de grace using his, at the time, most powerful technique Gear Third.

After the timeskip, Luffy casually one shots Pacifista while in Gear Second like they are nothing.

He now has Gear Fourth which is even stronger which is where you get the city flipping madness posted above.

On top of all that, he has the ability known as Haki which is a straight up buff that also greatly amps his hitting power and allows him to punch people made out of elements.

In short, Composite Man really doesn't want to get hit.

[The Arbiter]

A blow on the level of that scan is waaay beyond anything Clark or Thor have shown to tank.

Clark's best stuff is the World Machine and the Nuke. Probably the best (by best I mean least contentious most clear cut) durability feats for anyone in the composite. The World Machine exploded with.... I dunno, MOAB scale and strength? It flung his body like a mile away. He was explicitly weakened for this feat because it was poisoning him with its atmosphere - like he was hacking and coughing and tumbling about near the thing. The nuke was... the nuke. You can argue maybe he was again weakened by the kryptonite + night time combo of it all, but that's hard to verify one way or the other. It left him as a dried out unconscious mess.

Even if you think Clark could have tanked either thing way better if he were at 100%, the level of force required to shatter bed rock and flip it around in that manner is just flat out beyond a typical nuke in regards to the forces involved.

In a very long winded way of agreeing with Nik's point, yeah, he don't want to get hit.

[big_adventure]

Thanks Nik - so yeah, that's definitely hard enough to hurt the composite, so it comes back to speed. If Luffy can blitz, he's going to take this easily. If Luffy can't blitz, he's going to get stuck in the mirror dimension or something when he tries to charge. Given the way later-in-the-series Luffy's speed has generally been presented (I've only read the very beginning of OP), he's probably fast enough to blitz, no?

[Nik Hasta]

Thanks Nik - so yeah, that's definitely hard enough to hurt the composite, so it comes back to speed. If Luffy can blitz, he's going to take this easily. If Luffy can't blitz, he's going to get stuck in the mirror dimension or something when he tries to charge. Given the way later-in-the-series Luffy's speed has generally been presented (I've only read the very beginning of OP), he's probably fast enough to blitz, no?

As noted earlier in the thread, figuring out the comparative speed is a little hard to pin down to my mind.

Composite Man has Superman speed which is "decent bullet timers are slow motion to me," shown in the Justice League fight.

Give me a sec to just try and parse out out the algorithm as it pertains to Luffy and we'll see. As with most manga and anime, there's going to be yardsticking in there. This won't be complete as there are like 980 odd chapters of One Piece and I'm sure I'm forgetting some things but we'll go for broad strokes.

- Early Luffy, pre timeskip, already had quick reflexes as discussed earlier in the thread with Kuro. A good example of his combat speed is his combat with Zoro on the island of Baroque Works. Zoro fights a small army of assassins and has lots of moments of vanishing from view through speed, covering large distances and effortlessly blitzing groups of people. He ends up fighting Luffy later that day and the two of them are pretty evenly matched, the two of them both taking out other fighters attempting to interrupt them instantly at the time in the same manner.
- Later Luffy gets feats of intercepting/dodging bullets, as does Zoro which show up in the Skypeia arc IIRC. Again, the two of them are presented as pretty even in speed pretty consistently.
- Enter CP9 who blitz Luffy and co with their superspeed technique called Soru. Full on disappearing from view and so on.
- Luffy then just gits gud and can now hit them out of said movement in his base form. He also unlocked Gear Second at this point which greatly amps his speed which makes him able to blitz said users of Soru.
- Luffy and co then have trouble with Pacifista, as described above, and we hit the timeskip.
- Post timeskip Luffy is able to blitz Pacifista with ease and also dodges lasers/plasma blasts commenting how slow they are.
- Luffy fights Katakuri and gains control over his precognition. He had used his precog in small ways, usually when faced with much more powerful foes and the like but I believe he has a handle on it now.

I don't think there have been any specific upgrades recently that I'm missing... others feel free to correct me.

So, assuming that DCEU Wonder Woman is like... equivalent to say Skypeia arc/Early Water 7 arc Luffy/Zoro. That's like two or three major upgrades to Luffy's base speed/reactions (Matching Soru/Timeskip Boost/Precog) not counting enhanced forms (Gear Second/Gear Fourth). I don't know if that's enough to replicate the distance between Superman and Wonder Woman because it's rare to find something as clean as a full on slow motion sequence.