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  1. #31
    Legendary God of Pirates Nik Hasta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Chou Lives View Post
    Hey! I *LOVE* strong women. Like a lot. I love strong and competent women. It’s just I do not like it that said character, who will just “show up” and be that Freakken strong from appearance because of reasons. Yes she has a prequel movie that show cases why, she may get less Sue in my opinion.

    I just hate random character showing up out doing everyone due to reasons. At least Thanos got build up for a decade with hints he will show up and he did.

    I mean hell my favorite video game characters are women ones.

    And let it be known the folks I hate the most are the Tencgo Verse people. Light Hawk Wings my ass. ( Along with the Space Smurfs. That a 40k fan would get that joke.)
    I'm not going into this too much, mostly because it's thread drift, but you do get that saying "This character has no build up," when the next film due to come out is a specifically a flashback movie to do build up is a weird position to take, right?

    I just think knee-jerk cries of "Mary Sue," before her first film has even come out is not a good look.
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  2. #32
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Back on topic, didn't Jane Thor fly through a Sun at one point? Could've sworn I saw a scan of that.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik Hasta View Post
    I'm not going into this too much, mostly because it's thread drift, but you do get that saying "This character has no build up," when the next film due to come out is a specifically a flashback movie to do build up is a weird position to take, right?

    I just think knee-jerk cries of "Mary Sue," before her first film has even come out is not a good look.
    Agreed. Also, the minute someone starts throwing around "SJW" as an insult I know I can write off their opinion for good.


    As for the thread, if Jane can legitimately throw down with Odin and Gladiator with no caveats, then she's beyond Diana. If she has the same powerset and at the same levels as standard Thor, it's closer as Mjolnir can act independently and Diana's speed has been nerfed for this fight. But Diana should be the more skilled fighter and at a similar strength level, so should take it.

  4. #34
    U Got Me Str8 Trippin Boo nj06's Avatar
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    Does Wonder Woman have any ranged abilities? I know prior to the DCnU 52 reboot she could shoot lightning. Although now that I think about it that might not do much against Thor. Also, who has greater physical strength between these two?
    We are the Dora Milaje. We are the daughters of the 18 tribes of Wakanda. We are the teeth of the Panther God. Out of 10,000 years of sweat and bloodshed and battle are we born. We are the women of this ancient land. Deadliest of the species. And our time has come!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Chou Lives View Post
    And let it be known the folks I hate the most are the Tencgo Verse people. Light Hawk Wings my ass. ( Along with the Space Smurfs. That a 40k fan would get that joke.)
    The mere suggestion that Roboute Guilliman or his progeny could be any less than perfect is heresy of the highest order. Expect a visit from the Inquisition post haste.

  6. #36
    The Undead One The Chou Lives's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
    The mere suggestion that Roboute Guilliman or his progeny could be any less than perfect is heresy of the highest order. Expect a visit from the Inquisition post haste.

    Bah!!! The Ultra Narines are the true heretics forbthey got luck powers by making a pact with a Warp creature and their worlds are controlled by their own chapter and not the Empire.

    So it makes them look like they do not need the Emperors love.

    So in turn, they are the heretic.

    Edit: Yes their orimachmis Emperor now. But I doubt the “true” Enperor wants those annoying shots to get away with what they do.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan View Post
    Agreed. Also, the minute someone starts throwing around "SJW" as an insult I know I can write off their opinion for good.


    As for the thread, if Jane can legitimately throw down with Odin and Gladiator with no caveats, then she's beyond Diana. If she has the same powerset and at the same levels as standard Thor, it's closer as Mjolnir can act independently and Diana's speed has been nerfed for this fight. But Diana should be the more skilled fighter and at a similar strength level, so should take it.
    Glads is by no means beyond Post Crisis Wonder Woman and Odin is kinda nerfed currently(he is indeed still beyond WW though), but Jane Thor has a strength, durability + other edges and even though she is faster than the actual Thor equalized speed helps her a lot more than WW.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nj06 View Post
    Does Wonder Woman have any ranged abilities? I know prior to the DCnU 52 reboot she could shoot lightning. Although now that I think about it that might not do much against Thor. Also, who has greater physical strength between these two?
    (Jane)Thor has greater strength(WW can use hers more skillfully though). As for ranged abilities, well that depends on the exact definition of standard gear(which isn't too easy for Post Crisis WW tbh). With minimal gear just Zeus lightning and throwing her Tiara(and lasso to a lesser degree ), with a broader definition comes the Lansinarian Morphing Disk into play(pretty strong tp and Lantern style constructs).

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    Glads is by no means beyond Post Crisis Wonder Woman and Odin is kinda nerfed currently(he is indeed still beyond WW though), but Jane Thor has a strength, durability + other edges and even though she is faster than the actual Thor equalized speed helps her a lot more than WW.
    What makes you say post crisis Diana is in Gladiator's weight class?
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  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    What makes you say post crisis Diana is in Gladiator's weight class?
    Given a variety of previous threads to this point, what is likely to be various out of type performances for the character which they will justify by saying "high showings" as if the fact that we go by high showings for characters can be used as some kind of "logic trap" and forgetting the entire rest of everything where we do things like weigh those against the characters involved and overall careers and the like, certainly won't take into account how characters who exist as comparative blips have to be measured by comparison to ones with actual prolonged circumstances to measure them by. As per the last time this exact thing came up with them, they'll likely throw in a comment about double standards that again requires basically ignoring everything I posted after the words "high showings".

    They might, as per the exact last time this happened, try otherwise to instead invoke "99% of the time he's nowhere near that" despite advancing both that line of reasoning and "Wonder Woman's high showings" being themselves contradictory lines of reasoning. When someone points that out, they'll default back to "then Wonder Woman's higher showings are being ignored by comparison" while ignoring everything else noted above, that multiple people will probably note in reply to that.

    This poster feels that Post Crisis Wonder Woman is an FTL planet buster if not in fact somewhere beyond that.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 02-10-2019 at 04:55 PM.

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    In fact, since they seem to want to restage that exact same go around, I'm going to skip to the end of when they protest about "Wonder Woman's Shattered God Feat" and what have you and address this to them again:

    How many showings in comics where he actually does anything viable do you feel Gladiator has as compared to Wonder Woman?

    Most comics involve characters being wildly underwritten in some way so that there can be a comic. Which is fine, that's just comics and how they work. Of course sometimes, usually much more rarely, comics involve characters being wildly overwritten so that there can be a comic. The thing we do here is try to thread that needle while sticking within a character's high end capacity to avoid 20+ page threads that boil down to "the character wins because I say so" or as you ironically say "these standards only apply to this character but not this one."

    So, Gladiator, his abilities are presented as super strength, speed, flight, breath, energy blast vision, durability on a high end scale. As a character, sorting out his high end showings that fit to his presentation, shtick, and don't involve straight up jobbing other people out, make for a character who on the scale of comics and more established characters, has barely done anything. When looking at "well what's his high end then", i.e. the thing we go by, he only has so much to work with. His high end stuff generally fits in a framework of a guy with considerable ftl superspeed reaction time who can bust a planet and has the durability you would expect of a guy doing that sort of thing.

    It's like, say, Thanos. Thanos, especially lately, comes off like a character who must have just tons of showings where he does anything notable to measure for his powers at all, yet if you look at it, compared to a lot of other characters, Thanos has actually barely done anything on the scale of comic books as far as looking at what he can do.


    Wonder Woman, I doubt I need at all to note her abilities to you, given your posts. She has, especially in post crisis, a vast career of doing things to measure her by as far as ups, downs, total outliers, times she's straight up jobbing people out, times she herself is being jobbed out, across multiple incarnations of her own comic, JLA, what have you. Wherein her more consistent high end showings, and even the basic idea of her having superpowers at all, come together to present someone with near light reaction time, strength that can lift a mountain or be part of a group effort to move the moon, etc.


    That is not the same thing to sort out. For you to keep invoking your at this point batting .1000 claim of double standards vs Wonder Woman, these characters would need to be in the same situation of what's being looked at for them. They're not. One is a character with a gigantic wealth of performances to hash out "this is the consistent high end that mostly gets ignored in comics for her". Another is a character who on the scale of something like that is a blip.

    This isn't some kind of D&D contract devil/genie situation where you can go "ah ha! then you have to mean that everything counts for everyone!" as some kind of, I don't know, mega-legalism thing? Feats get weighed against a character for things like "does that fit in with the character's general high end performance presentation? does that fit in with the character's presentation of abilities at all? Did that have to completely ignore someone else's powers in order to be able to happen? Did anyone even do anything in a given fight that was indicative of their actual demonstrated abilities?" Etc.


    The alternative of "okay, but 99% of the time the character doesn't". Yes, and 100% of the time, a character's abilities are completely irrelevant to who would win any fight, because the only thing that determines anything in a comic is who the writer wants to win or what the writer wants the character to do. The idea is that we're treating this stuff as something that can be debated anyway because we like nerd debates, which means having to decide on a framework for how to do so, especially because we've seen the alternative. This is the one we settled on using.


    Anyway, an example on the lowest possible point of when we go "that stuff's too good". Batman. Batman has straight up punched a bullet away. He's redirected a charging Captain Marvel, a high end class 100 superstrong brick, with all of his foot, his foot somehow not exploding into a fine red mist. He's disarmed an entire sizable circle of gunmen surrounding him so fast that they didn't even perceive it, such that their hands are still making gun holding, fingers on the trigger shapes, so fast that by the time they realized what happened, he was already up in the air on a grapple line. He's been straight up exploded to no lasting harm whatsoever. He survived a beating from Superman thinking he's one of his worst villains, and actually took action during it. All these things happened. All those things are too good for even Batman's high end showings, which involve nothing even close to those sorts of things as far as a guy operating at peak human capacity and skill and the really good stuff he's otherwise done to demonstrate that across his lengthy career. So we look at those and go "that's too good even for Batman's high end capacity."

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member Pendaran's Avatar
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    Now, this post, and various other posts other posters made on the notion of Wonder Woman being in Gladiator's ballpark on this forum or not basically got no replies last time the last time they wanted to especially delve into this topic, but I feel like it's just going to save everyone a lot of time to skip right to the end anyway.
    Last edited by Pendaran; 02-10-2019 at 04:48 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Arbiter View Post
    What makes you say post crisis Diana is in Gladiator's weight class?
    The fact that Glads isn't much better than Thor on a consistent basis, besides being faster which would be in this specific thread obviously anyways irrelevant.

    And i dunno what the hell is wrong with Pendaran and his weird obsession with me and or Wonder Woman, it's pretty funny and sad at the same time that he seemingly tries to get another thread closed, where i've(also dunno who are "they" and why he can't speak directly to me if it's so urgent for him) explicitly said Wonder Woman loses, has less strength than both Thor's and neither mentioned any double standards nor anything else(except the apparently outrageous idea that a character in Superman's ballpark might be in Glads ballpark as well).
    Last edited by Rightoya; 02-10-2019 at 05:19 PM.

  14. #44
    Rumbles Moderator Guy1's Avatar
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    Thread closed for the time being.
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