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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    But how much boost Catwoman gets from King's recent "use" of her in Batman, not to mention her general Bat-family ties, may also play a part in her numbers.

    RE: Batgirl.
    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Batgirl's sales seem better then I remember it being. Has that picked up, or do we have variants to thank?
    The variants. Now if that book is good that is an added bonus.
    Batgirl, like most other regular DC continuing main universe titles, typically gets a regular and a single variant cover each issue. I don't know if/how much the variant option, lovely as those covers may be, would be solely responsible for boosting the sales that significantly.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    It's interesting how DC is out in front with some of their leading ladies who have been around forever, like Wonder Woman and Catwoman and Batgirl and Supergirl.

    Meanwhile, looking at Marvel's grand dames, Invisible Woman, Wasp/Janet, Scarlet Witch, Jean Grey, Storm, and there's not as much interest in headlining the classic ladies over at the other company. Marvel seems to be fine with the younger ones, invented more recently, like Ms. Marvel and Shuri and Spider-Gwen and Ironheart, but they get too long in the tooth, and it's back to the cornfield with you.
    I believe that's partly because of the way that these superheroines have been constructed. Sue Storm and Jean Grey were created to be the good trophy girlfriend to the square-jawed leader of a team, and there is fundamentally not much you can do with a character like that. Likewise, the only X-Men character that I know has managed a lasting success outside of X-men is Wolverine. (I know too little about Wasp and Scarlet Witch to say anything of value about them.)

    Wonder Woman, on the contrary, was created as her own independent hero, just as Ms Marvel or Squirrel Girl. Spider-Gwen is of course in an analogous situation to Batgirl and Supergirl, in being distaff counterparts that are given their own personality, and they can easily have staying power but will always belong to the B league because of that.

    Catwoman is the really interesting DC character here. She was created as an adjunct to Batman, but to contrast to him and be in conflict with him, not as a trophy. I believe that's why she and Lois Lane both have had such lasting success (in Lois's case because she was set up in conflict with the Superman/Clark Kent dual identity).

    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    For December Catwoman #6 only dropped to 28th and is still the top selling female character, with Wonder Woman #60 in 2nd place at 45th place overall. Nice to see that although Harley Quinn
    is DC's current "it" girl, the grand old lady Catwoman can still hold her own. (Harley Quinn #55 is in 63rd place for December)

    http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomi...8/2018-12.html
    Sad to see WW dropping on the chart, but I believe the somewhat slow start and the artist issues are the cause. But it'd be interesting to see how Catwoman and Wonder Woman trades sell in comparison to the Harley Quinn trades. In any case I believe that Harley Quinn is pushed so much by DC because she is a female character that the higherups there are confident in them being able to handle her, and can understand her. Meanwhile, once one starts to examine Wonder Woman, she's as even more subversive character than Poison Ivy. I think that's why she has been so mishandled for so long, because writers and editors try to make her safe to use for them, and in the process cuts of important pieces of her character that makes her incompleat.

  3. #18
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Another factor that I can see here is that despite all the talk about how a hot seller Harley Quinn is, and how much DC pushes her, she is still far below Catwoman and Wonder Woman. Meaning, that if DC wanted to meaningfully push any of their superheroines, they should first look to Catwoman and Wonder Woman.
    I would compare more Catwoman and Harley since they're both in similar straits of being iconic Batman Supervillains currently leading solo books.

  4. #19
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    And here the numbers based on Diamond's Top 500 Comics list for December 2018 using both Marvel and DC's female leads (to the best of my knowledge):
    * 28th - CATWOMAN #6 (DC) - 48,014 copies
    * 45th - WONDER WOMAN #60 (DC) - 36,966 copies
    * 57th - SPIDER-GWEN GHOST SPIDER #3 (MARVEL) - 29,016 copies
    * 63rd - HARLEY QUINN #55 (DC) - 27,742 copies
    * 66th - LIFE OF CAPTAIN MARVEL #5 (of 5 / MARVEL - 27,079 copies
    * 67th - X-23 #7 (MARVEL) - 26,934 copies
    * 69th - HARLEY QUINN #56 (DC) - 26,491 copies
    * 91st - SPIDER-GIRLS #3 (MARVEL) - 21,682 copies
    * 92nd - SUPERGIRL #25 (DC) - 21,564 copies
    * 95th - DOMINO #9 (MARVEL) - 20,692 copies
    * 104th - MR AND MRS X #6 (MARVEL) - 18,675 copies
    * 109th - SHURI #3 (MARVEL) - 17,561 copies
    * 110th - GODDESS MODE #1 (MR / DC) - 17,471 copies
    * 126th - SUICIDE SQUAD BLACK FILES #2 (Katana - DC) - 13,378 copies
    * 156th - PEARL #5 (MR / DC) - 10,584 copies
    * 171st - UNBEATABLE SQUIRREL GIRL #39 (MARVEL) - 9,464 copies
    * 192nd - UNSTOPPABLE WASP #3 (MARVEL) - 7,737 copies
    * 213th - MOON GIRL & DEVIL DINOSAUR #38 (MARVEL) - 6,502 copies
    * 219th - MARVEL SUPER HERO ADVENTURES CAPTAIN MARVEL FROST GIANTS #1 (MARVEL) - 5,954 copies

    Hopefully I didn't miss anybody. And remember, these numbers are based on what comic book shops ordered from Diamond, not necessarily how many copies individual readers bought.

    NOTE: Batgirl #30, Old Lady Harley #3 (of 5), Raven Daughter of Darkness #11 (of 12), Silencer #12, and Wonder Woman #61 (among others) didn't ship during the week of December 26th. Instead, they were delayed until the following week (January 2nd, 2019).

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    It's interesting how DC is out in front with some of their leading ladies who have been around forever, like Wonder Woman and Catwoman and Batgirl and Supergirl.

    Meanwhile, looking at Marvel's grand dames, Invisible Woman, Wasp/Janet, Scarlet Witch, Jean Grey, Storm, and there's not as much interest in headlining the classic ladies over at the other company. Marvel seems to be fine with the younger ones, invented more recently, like Ms. Marvel and Shuri and Spider-Gwen and Ironheart, but they get too long in the tooth, and it's back to the cornfield with you.
    It's not like Marvel did not try with some of those.

    The issue again is folks talking that mess about who deserves a book and THEY are the main ones who don't bother to at least try an arc.
    Also many of those ladies had movie rights belong to someone else and we all know how certain Marvel employees felt about that.

    Also all those younger ones (except Gwen) share a certain trait. They are all ladies of color in an industry where ladies of color lead books were at one point a rarity.

    Another issue with those ladies is unlike WW, Catwoman, Batgirl(S), Supergirl, Power Girl, Huntress, Batwoman, Chase and Harley-Dc had no trouble showing those ladies on their own at any given time.
    That were NOT relegated to someone's book or team book.

    Marvel does it but not to the level of DC. How many minis and one shots have Harley and Catwoman gotten?
    Cassandra Cain had a crossover with Dark Horse's Ghost book.

    We are not seeing that with Marvel's women.
    Why couldn't we see Sue Storm team up with say Painkiller Jane?

    DC took risks and Marvel until post Jane Foster did not.

  6. #21
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    It's not like Marvel did not try with some of those.

    The issue again is folks talking that mess about who deserves a book and THEY are the main ones who don't bother to at least try an arc.
    Also many of those ladies had movie rights belong to someone else and we all know how certain Marvel employees felt about that.

    Also all those younger ones (except Gwen) share a certain trait. They are all ladies of color in an industry where ladies of color lead books were at one point a rarity.

    Another issue with those ladies is unlike WW, Catwoman, Batgirl(S), Supergirl, Power Girl, Huntress, Batwoman, Chase and Harley-Dc had no trouble showing those ladies on their own at any given time.
    That were NOT relegated to someone's book or team book.

    Marvel does it but not to the level of DC. How many minis and one shots have Harley and Catwoman gotten?
    Cassandra Cain had a crossover with Dark Horse's Ghost book.

    We are not seeing that with Marvel's women.
    Why couldn't we see Sue Storm team up with say Painkiller Jane?

    DC took risks and Marvel until post Jane Foster did not.
    Has Marvel done any ongoing all girl team-up series like DC did with Birds of Prey, Gotham City Sirens, DC Super Hero Girls, and Gotham City Garage?

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Another factor that I can see here is that despite all the talk about how a hot seller Harley Quinn is, and how much DC pushes her, she is still far below Catwoman and Wonder Woman. Meaning, that if DC wanted to meaningfully push any of their superheroines, they should first look to Catwoman and Wonder Woman.
    But thats a recent development. During the new 52 era Harley was iirc usually selling better than Wonder Woman, and Catwoman's previous run had in the end really low sales. The final issue sold just 16,146 copies.

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member kurenai24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Has Marvel done any ongoing all girl team-up series like DC did with Birds of Prey, Gotham City Sirens, DC Super Hero Girls, and Gotham City Garage?
    That spider-women book and now a spider girls book but that is it.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    But thats a recent development. During the new 52 era Harley was iirc usually selling better than Wonder Woman, and Catwoman's previous run had in the end really low sales. The final issue sold just 16,146 copies.
    Yeah, I could only comment on the numbers in front of me. Any proper analysis would have to look into the quality of the run and non-floppy as well.

    Anyway, I think my main takeaway is that sales are not necessarily the only reason why DC decides to give a certain character a push. There are other, more subjective factors as well, and one of them is that I believe Harley Quinn is a character that the senior leadership at DC understand, and that sells well to an audience they can relate to and understand.

    I really doubt that a character like Kamala Khan would have come out from DC.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    That spider-women book and now a spider girls book but that is it.
    Marvel also tried an all female team with A-Force not to long ago.

  11. #26
    Mighty Member Koriand'r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HandofPrometheus View Post
    Dang Catwoman doing good.
    It's a GREAT book! Said it before and it's still true, I couldn't be happier with it.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Yeah, I could only comment on the numbers in front of me. Any proper analysis would have to look into the quality of the run and non-floppy as well.
    You just have to look at the numbers at chomichorn during the pre rebirth era, Harley's book sold usually 20.000+ copies more than Wonder Woman (who had back than similar sales as now).
    But I don't read both series, so have no idea what caused this big decline of Harley's sales numbers.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Has Marvel done any ongoing all girl team-up series like DC did with Birds of Prey, Gotham City Sirens, DC Super Hero Girls, and Gotham City Garage?
    Lady Liberators and A-Force are the two I can think of right off. There was also an all female X-Men lineup, IIRC, but I don't remember the title, or it being marketed as such. (And the X-side of things has always had an embarassment of riches when it comes to strong female characters.) A-Force was decent, and recent(ish).

    Domino's 'solo' has been secretly a 'girl team' book about her, Diamondback and Outlaw, and is rebooting as a new series with two or three more lady members.

    So Marvel is exploring the notion.

  14. #29
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kurenai24 View Post
    That spider-women book and now a spider girls book but that is it.
    The former was basically an event and the latter was a mini, so they weren't ongoings.
    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    I really doubt that a character like Kamala Khan would have come out from DC.
    I feel like DC has had similar characters like Kamala in the past. I can see some similarities between her and Cassie Sandsmark (Wonder Girl).
    Quote Originally Posted by ZuLuLu View Post
    Marvel also tried an all female team with A-Force not to long ago.
    I still don't get why Marvel ended that book after Civil War II. It was a solid seller.

  15. #30
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Here are January's numbers from Diamond's Top 500 Comics list using both DC's and Marvel's ladies (at least as best as I can notice).
    I also included the 1st issue of Buffy the Vampire Slayer from Boom:
    2nd - Captain Marvel #1 - 111,391 copies
    49th - Wonder Woman #61 - 36,413 copies
    52nd - Catwoman #7 - 35,490 copies
    54th - Wonder Woman #63 - 34,963 copies
    58th - Wonder Woman #62 - 33,870 copies
    59th - Black Widow #1 - 33,853 copies
    61st - Batgirl #31 - 33,287 copies
    69th - Batgirl #30 - 31,084 copies
    70th - Buffy The Vampire Slayer #1 (Boom) - 31,043 copies
    73rd - Supergirl #26 - 29,499 copies
    77th - Spider-Gwen Ghost Spider #4 - 27,721 copies
    84th - Harley Quinn #57 - 26,407 copies
    86th - X-23 #8 - 25,980 copies
    89th - Naomi #1* - 25,252 copies
    112th - Domino #10 - 19,655 copies
    119th - Mr and Mrs X #7 - 17,864 copies
    123rd - Ironheart #2 - 17,507 copies
    128th - Old Lady Harley #3 - 17,032 copies
    137th - Old Lady Harley #4 - 15,484 copies
    138th - Shuri #4 - 15,445 copies
    146th - Ms. Marvel #37 - 14,250 copies
    169th - Suicide Squad Black Files #3 (Katana) - 11,326 copies
    176th - Raven Daughter of Darkness #11 - 10,504 copies
    183rd - Raven Daughter of Darkness #12 - 10,102 copies
    186th - Pearl #6 - 9,988 copies
    200th - Scarlet #5 - 9,612 copies
    207th - Silencer #12 - 9,231 copies
    213th - Silencer #13 - 8,683 copies
    217th - Hex Wives #3 - 8,286 copies
    218th - Unbeatable Squirrel Girl #40 - 8,257 copies
    221st - Goddess Mode #2 - 8,116 copies
    237th - Hex Wives #4 - 7,157 copies
    250th - Unstoppable Wasp #4 - 6,613 copies
    272nd - Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur #39 - 5,878 copies
    NOTE: Some DC books had an additional issue ship in January since no DC comics were scheduled to ship on the last week in December (and January 2019 had five Wednesdays).

    Again, hopefully I didn't leave any titles from DC or Marvel off of this list that should have been included.

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