Susan Storm: Invisible Woman Appreciation 2018

[mrbrklyn]

We never did. We know Sue's been taking care of Johnny after their mother died so she was definitely 18 (or should have been) after that. There was that pseudo-creepy scene from back when Reed was going to college and trooming with Sue and Johnny's aunt and Sue as a kid looks googly-eyed at Reed.

Even Reed and Ben are iffy. Ben's at least as old as Reed depending on how early Reed entered college, but it seems Reed was Ben's age based on recent MTIO stories.

I get your point about the team's ages, but once adulthood is hit, it becomes a lot less important to pin down unlike the kids where age is a huge part of their characters. Was Reed 35 or 40 at the time of the flight? Doesn't really matter.

I think it makes sense that Reed was 30, Susan 25, Johnny 19, and Ben was the same age as Reed. In todays storylines, Reed would be about 50, Susan 45, and Johnny 39. That feels about right.

[mrbrklyn]

Has a woman ever written Susan? Like not just a throw away line like “look over there” but had a woman ever written fantastic four?

Roz Kirby. Does it matter?

[CaptCleghorn]

Roz Kirby. Does it matter?

It actually does. While the arguments are generally based on women knowing what women think better than men do, my argument is why limits your writing pool to half of the population? Obviously there are men who can handle Sue well. There are also talented women writers who may have a slightly different take on Sue which could be reflected well in a solo limited series.

[Crimz]

No it doesn't and it doesn't happen with Ben and Reed and Johnny. They are are a very tight family and rarely split up outside of Two and One. And 2-1 wasn't relationship driven.

Seeing any of them without the rest of the family is a real downer and makes little to no sense whatsoever. Susan Richards is plenty busy when she is not dead. She has a husband, two children, two "brothers" that live with them, and is running around the multiverse with them.

She is a powerful female character and she is not going to take a stroll to Storm's house for crumpets and tea. She is a powerful matriarch and as the head of the most powerful household in the Marvel Universe the world comes to her, where she holds court.

It does happen with the others and all you are vying for is limiting Sue. The FF need to be out there interacting with other heroes. Them being a family is a weak excuse for them not showing up individually in other books, they are not attached at the hip and Sue shouldn't be anchored to the FF book in a way that the other members are not.

She should have a life outside of her family like real people do, especially since she is Marvels first female superhero. She should involved in the MU just as much as other characters who get to guest appear in other books all the time.

Give me Sue visiting the X-Men then helping them out when something inevitably goes wrong. Or her teaming up with Scarlet Witch or Dr Strange to see how she reacts to the magic world. There are countless possibilities with no good reason to pass up. Part of the Fantastic Four's problem is that they are looked at not only as a family, but as one homogeneous character that can't work individually. They are meant to be a family of individuals and it's about time that every member is treated as their own person and hero outside of the Fantastic Four book.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, all four of the usual team have been Avengers at some point. Let them interact with them at least. Johnny technically owns Avengers Mansion, even!

I think it makes sense that Reed was 30, Susan 25, Johnny 19, and Ben was the same age as Reed. In todays storylines, Reed would be about 50, Susan 45, and Johnny 39. That feels about right.

Johnny's younger than that. He was 15 when he started out, and the flight was no more than 15 years ago, not 20. He's the same age as Spider-Man, around 29. Reed and Sue just aged up a decade or so, along with the kids, but Johnny and Ben didn't.

[Keyotheseasons]

No it doesn't and it doesn't happen with Ben and Reed and Johnny. They are are a very tight family and rarely split up outside of Two and One. And 2-1 wasn't relationship driven.

Seeing any of them without the rest of the family is a real downer and makes little to no sense whatsoever. Susan Richards is plenty busy when she is not dead. She has a husband, two children, two "brothers" that live with them, and is running around the multiverse with them.

She is a powerful female character and she is not going to take a stroll to Storm's house for crumpets and tea. She is a powerful matriarch and as the head of the most powerful household in the Marvel Universe the world comes to her, where she holds court.

Yeah, but I still would like to see Sue leave the house and live a life that is her own every once in a while. A lot of relationships in real life suffer and end if the people involved give up everything around them and only spend time with one another. Granted, every couple is different, but I do believe it is healthy to have friends of your own and spend time with them apart from your partner, family or kids. And as for Sue, in a fictional setting, I believe the same should apply. No one is saying split up the team or that Sue needs to be constantly gallivanting around by herself, but in comparison, Reed, Ben and Johnny do show up quite a bit in other books and have more established relationships with characters outside of their team. Whereas Sue's relationships are much harder to define in my opinion.

[mrbrklyn]

It actually does. While the arguments are generally based on women knowing what women think better than men do, my argument is why limits your writing pool to half of the population? Obviously there are men who can handle Sue well. There are also talented women writers who may have a slightly different take on Sue which could be reflected well in a solo limited series.

This is the best character that Marvel has and it has been handled excellently for decades. While it is true that Comics has been, and will continue to be, mostly for an audience of pre-teen and young boys, into their young adulthood, there is certainly space for women readers and creators in comics. The more readers, the more profits, which is all that really matters in the end. Arguments that women know better what women think, I don't even engage in. It takes a lifetime just to understand the human condition well enough to really comprehend its bredth and smallness, to even have a small understanding of it. If I wanted to converse only with people who understand through expereince what any human condition is, that would eliminate conversation with nearly everyone under the age of 70 and bilies great literary works done by young people across multiple forms. And by the same logic, Black Panther should have been created by a black man, as should have Black Lightning, and John Stewart, and Storm. Social Justice can't be won by this methodology. Women should be able to write based on their merits, and they can write effectively a whole slew of characters, and the argument that they can write women characters better than men is a huge failure on multiple levels, especially when talking about young women who have lived a very limited part of their lives.

A Susan Solo series would just destroy the character. This is a different subtopic, but using Susan Richards as a vehicle for a walkabout through the marvel universe, without her family, starts out with a fundamental misunderstanding of her character. Susan is not some teen who needs to explore herself. She knows who she is. She is the Matriarch of the Fantastic Four, a loving wife, a mother of a special needs child who can destroy universes (minor problem), a sister to her loving brother, and lifelong friend and companion to Ben Grim, and companion and partner to her husband, Reed Richards.

All other relationships are external to her family, and she has a lot of them. She-Hulk, Medusa, Crystal, Alicia Masters, etc etc etc.

Susan Richards is not George F. Babbitt and the Baxter Building doesn't exist in Zenith, Winnemac. Nor is she Holly Golightly, Megan McKeenan, or Katina Choovanski. Susan Richards is actually somewhat unique in comics... Phyllis Bloom with super powers? That is not right either. Women who go through an entire life cycle in Comics is few and far between. Actually, that is also true of the men. The emotional growth of most comic characters ends at the age of 23 at best. Maturity is just not part of the genera. There is no reaosn to snuff it out in one of the few places were it exists.

[mrbrklyn]

Yeah, but I still would like to see Sue leave the house and live a life that is her own every once in a while.

Her life of her own exists inside the family of the Fantastic Four. It really is. It is also true, FWIW, of the other FF members, although, Johnny and Ben might build their own homes eventually... wouldn't that be nice I would say, though, that saying "still would like to see Sue leave the house" completelty misrepresents Susan Richards character. She has never been home bound, unless you are saying that the Negative Zone is her back yard (which might not be completely untrue).

[Crimz]

Her life of her own exists inside the family of the Fantastic Four. It really is. It is also true, FWIW, of the other FF members, although, Johnny and Ben might build their own homes eventually... wouldn't that be nice I would say, though, that saying "still would like to see Sue leave the house" completelty misrepresents Susan Richards character. She has never been home bound, unless you are saying that the Negative Zone is her back yard (which might not be completely untrue).

Yet here you are advocating for her to stay in it. For someone claiming that she isn't restricted you are fighting hard for her to be.

[mrbrklyn]

Reed, Ben and Johnny do show up quite a bit in other books

No, they really don't unless Marvel decides to do a ridicules crossover, earth destorying events which they need Reed and Franklin to stitch it together. Ben has Yancy street... geez. Johnny has a few cameos with Spider-man. 2-1 stories are trivial stories at best. All the characters center of the FF book and the FF is a family. It might be interesting if Johnny, not Sue, went off and developed his own life outside the shadow of Susan. Susan dominates the FF and its family. But I don't think you need a book for that. The FF might well be described as book about Susan Richards and her troubled boys.

[Crimz]

This is the best character that Marvel has and it has been handled excellently for decades. While it is true that Comics has been, and will continue to be, mostly for an audience of pre-teen and young boys, into their young adulthood, there is certainly space for women readers and creators in comics. The more readers, the more profits, which is all that really matters in the end. Arguments that women know better what women think, I don't even engage in. It takes a lifetime just to understand the human condition well enough to really comprehend its bredth and smallness, to even have a small understanding of it. If I wanted to converse only with people who understand through expereince what any human condition is, that would eliminate conversation with nearly everyone under the age of 70 and bilies great literary works done by young people across multiple forms. And by the same logic, Black Panther should have been created by a black man, as should have Black Lightning, and John Stewart, and Storm. Social Justice can't be won by this methodology. Women should be able to write based on their merits, and they can write effectively a whole slew of characters, and the argument that they can write women characters better than men is a huge failure on multiple levels, especially when talking about young women who have lived a very limited part of their lives.

You just have to look at her history that's infused with times of misogyny. A female perspective would not hurt the character and would bring a new perspective not just for Sue, but the entire team.

A Susan Solo series would just destroy the character. This is a different subtopic, but using Susan Richards as a vehicle for a walkabout through the marvel universe, without her family, starts out with a fundamental misunderstanding of her character. Susan is not some teen who needs to explore herself. She knows who she is. She is the Matriarch of the Fantastic Four, a loving wife, a mother of a special needs child who can destroy universes (minor problem), a sister to her loving brother, and lifelong friend and companion to Ben Grim, and companion and partner to her husband, Reed Richards.

You do notice that all of the descriptors you used for her relied on her family? None of them said anything about her as an individual because you can't and frankly that's a failure of the character as you can describe the other members, even the kids, without even mentioning the family. All of them except Sue have wants and goals outside of the family and I say that Sue should too.
A solo would not destroy anything, it would give attention and build up a character that needs and deserves it. Marvel's first female superhero deserves at least that.

All other relationships are external to her family, and she has a lot of them. She-Hulk, Medusa, Crystal, Alicia Masters, etc etc etc.

That's not a good thing. The others have relationships outside of the Fantastic Four while Sue does not. It shows another failure of Marvel with the character. All of those names are characters heavily involved with the team and book, she should have connections outside of it like the others do.

You'll notice a pattern with what I'm saying. I'm not asking for special treatment, or to break up the family. I'm asking for equal treatment, for Sue to get all the shots and opportunity's the men on her team have gotten. Even Franklin has had a solo book and adventures outside of the family. It shouldn't be this big thing to ask that Sue get treated the same.

[Keyotheseasons]

Her life of her own exists inside the family of the Fantastic Four. It really is. It is also true, FWIW, of the other FF members, although, Johnny and Ben might build their own homes eventually... wouldn't that be nice I would say, though, that saying "still would like to see Sue leave the house" completelty misrepresents Susan Richards character. She has never been home bound, unless you are saying that the Negative Zone is her back yard (which might not be completely untrue).

I didn't mean house in the literal sense, but more as a metaphor for interacting with people outside of the Fantastic Four. I will always treasure every moment she has with her team, because they all are best when they are together, but that doesn't mean she doesn't exist outside of that quartet. And I don't think having a desire to see Sue branch out is in anyway a misrepresentation of her character. Every mother, wife, daughter, sister, etc. has interests, dreams, and goals, even if it is only something as silly as wanting to finish knitting a scarf by Christmas for example. We know Sue strives to be a good role model, wife and mother and she succeeds in those things daily, but what does she want to do for herself?

I love Sue being a wife and a mom. I really do. One of the many reasons why I identify with her and have her tattooed on my arm is out of love and respect for my own mother, who Sue reminds me of a lot in terms of inner strength and resilience, but I still want glimpses of who she is outside of her roles of motherhood and loyal wife.

You said she doesn't go to Storm's house for Crumpets and tea, but why not? I may not want to see that in every issue, but it would be nice for me as a fan of the character to see her interact with people that she doesn't necessarily see on a daily basis. But I am not trying to convince you of my point of view, but that is definitely something I would love to see. Sue is my all time favorite Marvel character and I want to see her interact with a multitude of characters and see how her relationships with people may have changed, evolved or dissipated.

[Crimz]

No, they really don't unless Marvel decides to do a ridicules crossover, earth destorying events which they need Reed and Franklin to stitch it together. Ben has Yancy street... geez. Johnny has a few cameos with Spider-man. 2-1 stories are trivial stories at best. All the characters center of the FF book and the FF is a family. It might be interesting if Johnny, not Sue, went off and developed his own life outside the shadow of Susan. Susan dominates the FF and its family. But I don't think you need a book for that. The FF might well be described as book about Susan Richards and her troubled boys.

Johnny and Ben have had solo books and the original Marvel Two-in-One. Reed is called often for science problems throughout the Marvel universe and was on the Illuminati. Reed even had a cameo earlier this year in Hunt for Wolverine #1 set just before Secret Wars.



Here are some of the solo books/ team-ups:

Strange Tales (Human Torch)

Human Torch (Karl Kesel)

Spider-Man & The Human Torch

Marvel Two-In-One (original)

Thing

The Thing: Freakshow

The Thing: Night Falls on Yancy Street

Before the Fantastic Four: Ben Grimm and Logan

Before the Fantastic Four: Reed Richards

Franklin Richards: Son of a genius

Notice someone missing? Sue is the only member to not even have her own mini book. Reed and even Franklin got to have at least a mini.

Plus Sue does not dominate the main Fantastic Four book, it's Reed. You just have to look at how he has the most villains targeting specifically him and that the majority of story arcs center around him.

[mrbrklyn]

You said she doesn't go to Storm's house for Crumpets and tea, but why not?

The reason would be because she established for herself a strong family and as you mature, those relationships outside the family become less important to you.

I may not want to see that in every issue, but it would be nice for me as a fan of the character to see her interact with people that she doesn't necessarily see on a daily basis.

I think that is an important part of the FF mythos, and that it happens and it will continue to happen. If the FF is well written, you should find excellent Susan stories. But Susan Storm, when that "person" stands in front of you, she brings with her the entire clan. Her identity is that she is the mature, experienced member, if not leader, of her clan, the Fantastic Four. That doesn't make her isolated. It makes her healthy, balanced and well connected to a social context that she helped create.

But I am not trying to convince you of my point of view, but that is definitely something I would love to see. Sue is my all time favorite Marvel character and I want to see her interact with a multitude of characters and see how her relationships with people may have changed, evolved or dissipated.

That will happen if the book is written well. It has always happened in the past. The bigger problem is that it might not be well written. But it is not like she has a secret life outside the FF, or that she is underdeveloped, or being held back from being developed. She is proof that comics storytelling can rise to much higher level that a bunch of superbeings floundering around like a college dormatory, but with larger stakes.


What worries me is that some writer is going to get it in his head that the FF sucks because Susan Richards is a mother and loves her husband, so she needs to be transformed into 20 year old lost soul, sleeping around the Marvel universe and creating a saga in her marriage and destroying her family. There are plenty of characters for this, but The Invisbile Girl is not one of them.

[Crimz]

The reason would be because she established for herself a strong family and as you mature, those relationships outside the family become less important to you.

No, they are just as important as you want them to be. Relationships outside of the family are important especially when someone wants time away and to vent about said family.

Friends are always important. I want to see Sue with friends outside of the FF and how she is in new situations. Really delve into who the character is as an individual.
A lot of character growth can happen when you take a character away from their comfort zone and Sue is missing out on a lot of potentially interesting stories by not having her more involved in the MU.

I think that is an important part of the FF mythos, and that it happens and it will continue to happen. If the FF is well written, you should find excellent Susan stories. But Susan Storm, when that "person" stands in front of you, she brings with her the entire clan. Her identity is that she is the mature, experienced member, if not leader, of her clan, the Fantastic Four. That doesn't make her isolated. It makes her healthy, balanced and well connected to a social context that she helped create.

This is still just about how she is to the family. Expanding her character to how she is outside of it is no more damaging than when other members of the family do it. Every member of the family except for Sue gets to be defined by more than just the family. Why is she the only one that is?

What worries me is that some writer is going to get it in his head that the FF sucks because Susan Richards is a mother and loves her husband, so she needs to be transformed into 20 year old lost soul, sleeping around the Marvel universe and creating a saga in her marriage and destroying her family. There are plenty of characters for this, but The Invisbile Girl is not one of them.

No one is asking for the Invisible Woman to leave her family.

Having more adventures and connections outside of the Fantastic Four =/= abandoning your family.

Why is it always Sue that gets this rhetoric when other members of the very same team and family don't? It's extremely frustrating to have to fight for a character to be treated the same as their peers. That's all I want. For Sue to be given the same opportunities as other characters. It's not a lot and it shouldn't be this hard.