Susan Storm: Invisible Woman Appreciation 2018

[CaptCleghorn]

On a different note. I hope for some slightly more complex constructs from Sue. That would be fun.

I'm also curious as to her ability to make her constructs move. She can "fly" with her force firleds somewhat, but could she make a fan, spin it and cool herself off?

[JackDaw]

People like to act as if the difference in treatment between Sue and the other members was made up or exaggerated when it's not.

(Interesting piece of evidence.)

But opening debate out a bit...within pages of FF itself has Sue been written as less important than the other members?

I’ve read three long runs fairly recently..the original Kirby/Lee run, the John Bryne run, and the Jonathan Hickman Fantastic Four/ Future Foundation run.

In the original Kirby/ Lee run..Sue was clearly underpowered to start with, and mayhap at times shown as a bit immature (I must admit at times Stan’s dialogue had me in doubt whether he was poking fun at some of the conventions of the period, or whether he believed them...)

But power issue was soon fixed, and she was shown as maturing as series progressed. Yes..clearly Reed was shown as “more important”..but on balance I think she was shown as more important to team success than Ben or Johnny.

I think the other two runs followed the same pattern. Reed’s “superman status’” needs to be toned down..but actually Sue is shown as saving team more times than Johnny or Ben, and making more key decisions.

[mrbrklyn]

(Interesting piece of evidence.)

But opening debate out a bit...within pages of FF itself has Sue been written as less important than the other members?

I’ve read three long runs fairly recently..the original Kirby/Lee run, the John Bryne run, and the Jonathan Hickman Fantastic Four/ Future Foundation run.

In the original Kirby/ Lee run..Sue was clearly underpowered to start with, and mayhap at times shown as a bit immature (I must admit at times Stan’s dialogue had been in doubt whether he was poking fun at some of the conventions of the period, or whether he believed them...)

But power issue was soon fixed, and she was shown as maturing as series progressed. Yes..clearly Reed was shown as “more important”..but on balance I think she was shown as more important to team success than Ben or Johnny.

I think the other two runs followed the same pattern. Reed’s “superman status’” needs to be toned down..but actually Sue is shown as saving team more times than Johnny or Ben, and making more key decisions.

Kibry and Lee, especially Kirby, decided early in the FF that they wanted a strong development for Susan Richards, and the Invisible Girl and they assessed that while turning invisible was great for horror and minor plots, to really take the FF where they wanted, they had to upgrade her power. They also saw an opportunity to attract female readers. Now, maybe they "over did it" at this point, actually. She is no doubt the most powerful of the members of the FF. She has more than saved the team, she has lead them and has been the pointman on the action. Her power has been tapped into a dimensional pocket of nearly infinite power. Her limits are really in her minds abilty to manipulate hyperspace force fields

Regardless of the complaints, Susan Richards has actually probably received more devotion than any of the FF members. It is just historically inaccurate to say otherwise. Susan Richards was the heart and soul of the FF straight through it's most golden era. It is not like she has had equal screen time as the men, she has had MORE.

[Crimz]

I'm also curious as to her ability to make her constructs move. She can "fly" with her force firleds somewhat, but could she make a fan, spin it and cool herself off?

I think she could make the blades of a fan and mentally spin it to cool herself. It's a pretty simple shape and motion that should be easy for her.

I want for her to make more complex things, but not as complex as Green Lantern because some of the things Lanterns create are ridiculous. Sue should be unable to make a working gun for example as it has to many complex parts and needs gunpowder. But she should be able to make a bullet shaped force-field and mentally throw it someone with the same speed and force, or maybe even greater. We still don't know the speed limit of her force-fields when she moves them. That would be another interesting thing to answer in a book.

(Interesting piece of evidence.)

But opening debate out a bit...within pages of FF itself has Sue been written as less important than the other members?

I’ve read three long runs fairly recently..the original Kirby/Lee run, the John Bryne run, and the Jonathan Hickman Fantastic Four/ Future Foundation run.

In the original Kirby/ Lee run..Sue was clearly underpowered to start with, and mayhap at times shown as a bit immature (I must admit at times Stan’s dialogue had been in doubt whether he was poking fun at some of the conventions of the period, or whether he believed them...)

But power issue was soon fixed, and she was shown as maturing as series progressed. Yes..clearly Reed was shown as “more important”..but on balance I think she was shown as more important to team success than Ben or Johnny.

I think the other two runs followed the same pattern. Reed’s “superman status’” needs to be toned down..but actually Sue is shown as saving team more times than Johnny or Ben, and making more key decisions.

In the FF book things are fine with Sue. As you said they need to take the focus off Reed so much, but things are usually good with her. What I am talking about is the MU as a whole where she has the least presence. Outside of the FF books she is not seen as much as the others and that's what I think should change. It's time for the team to regain their popularity and a part of that is having a real presence in the MU. For example, Sue shows up in an X-book for an issue and it's a fun story a possible fan could go "hey that character is cool, let me check out the Fantastic Four book". I just want more fun adventures with Sue in different situations and for the Fantastic Four fanbase to grow as that's what the team needs, more fans.

[Crimz]

Regardless of the complaints, Susan Richards has actually probably received more devotion than any of the FF members. It is just historically inaccurate to say otherwise. Susan Richards was the heart and soul of the FF straight through it's most golden era. It is not like she has had equal screen time as the men, she has had MORE.

Reed has had the most attention out of all the team. The amount of storylines about him and villains that target him corroborate this.

It's also easy to disprove the screentime comment too with the number of appearances:

Sue - 5255

Johnny - 5775

Reed - 5790

Ben - 6771

Facts show that Sue has had the least amount of appearances. Reed and Johnny have 500 more, while Ben has over 1000 more. So your argument is in fact the historically inaccurate one.

[mrbrklyn]

Motherhood is very profound. It is probably the most profound thing a women will ever do in their lifetimes. I'm glad that Kirby wanted this for the Susan. It improves her as a character.

[JackDaw]

Motherhood is very profound. It is probably the most profound thing a women will ever do in their lifetimes. I'm glad that Kirby wanted this for the Susan. It improves her as a character.

Courtship, marriage, birth, Johnny wanting to prove himself by going to college as well as in super heroics...it was part of what differentiated the Fantastic Four from the timeless cartoon conventions in super hero comics before then.

Part of me wishes that had been seen through..that Sue, Reed, Ben, and Johnny had gradually aged...and we were reading about their mature kids adventures now.

It might have made for even better stories. But yes, I know there was no real chance of super hero comics going that way....too many of the characters have become important “brands”.

[mrbrklyn]

Courtship, marriage, birth, Johnny wanting to prove himself by going to college as well as in super heroics...it was part of what differentiated the Fantastic Four from the timeless cartoon conventions in super hero comics before then.

Part of me wishes that had been seen through..that Sue, Reed, Ben, and Johnny had gradually aged...and we were reading about their mature kids adventures now.

It might have made for even better stories. But yes, I know there was no real chance of super hero comics going that way....too many of the characters have become important “brands”.

Your right. If I am Marvel, I am thinking of making the FF outside of the main universe, like a Vertigo book. They can bring in what they want from the Marvel world, but age them more naturally. This way is stupid all world garbage is happening in the X-men, it doesn't need to shake up the FF, and it allows for a continuation of the FF Mythos as they age.

[mrbrklyn]

Your right. If I am Marvel, I am thinking of making the FF outside of the main universe, like a Vertigo book. They can bring in what they want from the Marvel world, but age them more naturally. This way is stupid all world garbage is happening in the X-men, it doesn't need to shake up the FF, and it allows for a continuation of the FF Mythos as they age.

They can change the name to:

"The Fantastic Adventures of Susan Richards: And her family"

[mrbrklyn]

(Interesting piece of evidence.)

But opening debate out a bit...within pages of FF itself has Sue been written as less important than the other members?

I’ve read three long runs fairly recently..the original Kirby/Lee run, the John Bryne run, and the Jonathan Hickman Fantastic Four/ Future Foundation run.

In the original Kirby/ Lee run..Sue was clearly underpowered to start with, and mayhap at times shown as a bit immature (I must admit at times Stan’s dialogue had me in doubt whether he was poking fun at some of the conventions of the period, or whether he believed them...)

But power issue was soon fixed, and she was shown as maturing as series progressed. Yes..clearly Reed was shown as “more important”..but on balance I think she was shown as more important to team success than Ben or Johnny.

I think the other two runs followed the same pattern. Reed’s “superman status’” needs to be toned down..but actually Sue is shown as saving team more times than Johnny or Ben, and making more key decisions.

and lets not forget that Susan is cute. She really is.

[BAS]

Just going to leave this here:





It's from the 70s and explains a lot.

People like to act as if the difference in treatment between Sue and the other members was made up or exaggerated when it's not.

Interesting at least that Marvel Girl was on equal footing with her teammates, as well as Wasp with Ant-Man. Those women took a back seat to nobody.

[mrbrklyn]

Really, Marvel Girl was the leader of the FF? Imagine that.



I can't see that image. I have that source blocked from my network, but, people will believe anything they want.

[mrbrklyn]

Here is the FF working with Susan, making her stronger!

[mrbrklyn]

Here is Stan and Jack showing how important the Inivisible Women is to Marvel. This might be the only time they ever sketched themselves directly into a storyline. (now someone will find anotther one somewhere).

[Crimz]

I love things like this:









At the forefront of the superhero community, seeing her team-up with other heroes and how they interact with each other. How she bounces off all these different personalities and may not end up not getting along with some. It doesn't happen often enough (and she should team-up with some more male heroes), but saying that she should stay with her family is a poor excuse and waste of potential. None of this requires her to abandon her family, why do people even think that? Can someone explain it to me?

Something that really needs to be dead and gone is the Namor crap. No more of that.