The Jason Todd Reread (pre- and post-crisis)

[Sergard]

Preview: (Batman #359: "Hunt")

[Sergard]

Detective Comics #526: "All My Enemies Against Me!"

Summary:

Giant-sized issue commemorating Batman's 500th appearance in DETECTIVE COMICS! Featuring the first appearance of Jason Todd as Robin! Batman teams with Robin and Batgirl to take on twenty of his deadliest foes, including the Joker, Catwoman, Killer Croc, Mister Freeze, Penguin, and more!

creative team

Writer: Gerry Conway

Penciler: Don Newton

Inker: Alfredo Alcala

Colourist: Adrienne Roy

Letterer: Ben Oda

Editors: Nicola Cuti, Len Wein

Preview:

[CPSparkles]

Because it's a half and half story about nature vs nurture and a legacy story as well, one you can write better with an all new (or not so) character like Damian and a character that already meant some kind of legacy like Dick, taking of the cowl. I mean; you could have written a story about legacy with Tim as Robin to Dick's Batman, and one about nature vs nurture with Jason; but I can see as well why using Damian for both. Morrison would have (and had) better control and more freedom of an almost unused if not plain used character like Damian, besides giving more of a punch with him being a kid, and Bruce offspring as well. For the mere sake of drama, it was more effective, in my eyes, that what could've been done with the other characters separately. And, besides, well, it was a fresh start, somehow, which writers working with a new-to-them a character prefer, I guess.

BftC was bad, and I think it's better retconned (even if something "like" that happened even now, continuity wise—but that's not confirmed, either). But what came afterwards, the actual building up of Damian fitting and filling the Robin costume (to certain degree, even if it was a different kind of Robin, for a different Batman as well) was good, I think. Now, what he did with Jason, that is a mess.

While it's always been a recurring theme in Damian stories, Tomasi's B&R was the run that explored the Nature V Nurture theme especially.
Morrison's B&R Reborn was about the value of Dick Grayson. About the evolution of Batman and Robin. Can't quite remember his exact words or the source but it was showing the importance of Bruce taking Dick under his wing. The importance of robin and how it endures.

It wasn't about Bruce it was about Dick. Dick was the only Batman that could save Damian. It wasn't a story that could be told with Tim or Jason.

I'm conflicted on Morrison's direction with Jason. I've always liked a Jason that opposed the Bats but I've enjoyed the Rebirth Outlaws

[Aahz]

I really like how epic the final issue feels with all these heroes an villains.

It is also really shame what became of Croc afterwards, here is he is way cooler character than as the dumb muscle he became in later stories.

But what I'm still wondering how Dick and Barbara were able to defeat Clayface and and Gentleman Ghost of panel.

And I still think that this story is probably is one of the best origin stories for a Robin (it is just unfortunate that they didn't go directly with the street kid Jason).

[Arctic Cyclist]

I checked it, Damian was actually allready in the final issue of RIP driving the Batmobile together with Alfred, but how it came to this, and why Talia just left him there is to me still not really clear.

But R.I.P. is imo an almost unreadable mess.

She didn't. Damian's becoming Robin was because of negotiations between Talia and Dick during the Freefall and Faces of Evil arcs in Nightwing (also the very first time Ra's calls someone other than Bruce Detective, and unlike Tim, he didn't say it in sarcasm, frustration or anger and will continue to refer to Dick as Detective in the Damian Son of Batman series) and the first of the two 2009 Azrael series. Dick agreed to take Damian in, train, and protect him in exchange for Michael Lane getting the Suit of Sorrows along with Talia agreeing to keep the Suit of Sorrows away from Damian as he's implied to be the actual heir to the Suit through Ra's.

Damian was dumped on Dick during Barttle for the Cowl because Talia was convinced—rather accurately given previous canon—that her father was going to torture, murder, resurrect and repeat both her and Damian for their decision to not let him use Damian's body and the death of Dusan. Hence Dick's agreeing to take Damian under his wing and make him Robin.

Of course, that was under other writers besides Morrison who'd had a long history of actually reading the canon and stable, healthy, mutually respectful relationships with women. So it's not the bat **** crazy Talia Morrison was writing because he was pissed over being dumped and his ex moving on which is why she has reasonable character motivations.

The nature vs nurture is such a weird, racist, bs thing with Damian considering that as you'll see in Detective 400, Talia prior to Gail Simone and Grant Morrison normally fell on the side of angels, even if she had to maneuver carefully and manipulate like a mad woman to avoid detection. It's really bull when you look at the alternate versions of Damian, Tallant and Ibn, and realize that if he doesn't met Bruce until adulthood, it doesn't matter what his childhood was like, the son of Batman and Talia grows up to be sane, stable, an excellent leader, and capable of forming healthy long lasting relationships in addition to being an excellent judge of character and making friends easily.

It's remarkably similar to Jason and Talia's relationships in Bombshells and Flashpoint where Bruce isn't part of their lives. Without the emotional abuse Bruce subjects them to, all three characters are different people and inherently noble and self sacrificing.

[Aahz]

She didn't. Damian's becoming Robin was because of negotiations between Talia and Dick during the Freefall and Faces of Evil arcs in Nightwing

Ok I might have missed that. But that shows imo the problem how scattered his origin story is.

[Aahz]

Btw. what I'm still curious about is the in these issues mentioned death of Gordon's wife. Thats something that was still mentioned in early post crisis stories (Batman Annual #13 iirc), but it was never really explained when how she died.

She was at least still alive in the Golden Age.

[Sergard]

Jason's parents grew on me. There was more focus on his mother but I liked the little moment in Batman #359 when they decided to enter the hideout together. They really loved each other.
And what irony that Jason helped saving Talia - and in the next continuity she saves him.
The red trunks look a little silly on Croc, I prefer the green version on the cover of Batman #359. I would have liked to see more of his sniper skills. After killing the Squid he only used his muscle power. Croc is really an interesting character. (So if he isn't occupied with the Suicide Squad in the near future I wouldn't mind if Jason hired him for his new casino gig.)

Maybe an underappreciated moment: I like the panel when a guy screams Batman & Robin but it's Batgirl and Robin. It reminds me of reoccurring discussions that "Batman" doesn't have to be a male person.

[Sergard]

This time (16 March - 29 March) we discuss Batman #360 and Detective Comics #527.

Batman #360: "When Slays the Savage Skull"

Summary:

Batman faces the Savage Skull, an ex-cop whose burned face drives him to murder the policemen who threw him off the force.

creative team:

Writer: Doug Moench

Penciler: Don Newton

Inker: Pablo Marcos

Colourist: Adrienne Roy

Letterer: Ben Oda

Editors: Len Wein, Nicola Cuti

[Sergard]

Preview:

[Sergard]

Detective Comics #527: "Avatars of Vengeance"

Summary:

Man-Bat is back and looking for vengeance against the Dark Knight--and seeks it by kidnapping Jason Todd.

creative team:

Writer: Doug Moench

Penciler: Dan Day

Inker: Pablo Marcos

Colourist: Adrienne Roy

Letterer: Ben Oda

Editors: Len Wein, Nicola Cuti

[Sergard]

Preview:

[Aahz]

When it comes to Batman #360 that's the type of detective story I would like to see more often in modern comics. Just Batman hunting down some insane serial killer.

Tec #527 reminded me that pre-crisis Jason really liked movies, while the current version seems to be more into reading.

Btw. I think here you can also quite clearly see the claim I made a few times that Dick retroactively acquired traits of pre crisis Jason, I can't remember Dick did doing stuff like walking around on his hands in his original comics as Robin.

[Zaresh]

I'm finally catching up, even if I'm still behind. I've just read Batman 358: good issue. It felt pretty noir, to be honest. I like this version of Croc: feels rough, hard and dangerous. I liked a few technical things here. Lettering was nice, and the way the colour was applied was honestly good: there were almost no mistakes.

I have a question, though. This "Hell's Point" place, is still in continuity? I don't remember reading that name before.

Edit: I've already read 'Tec 525 too. Good issue as well. I liked the cover a lot, and the scene with Vicki was fun: I was thinking the same that her while Bruce was telling his stuff. I loved her faces. Art overall was nice in some places.

Edit2: and Batman #359. Bruce sure was dealing with some issues there. Wew, way to be a pr*ck about normal people trying to not get themselves into dangerous situations. I know, he's that way because then he will probable resent involving the Todds in the case. But, eh, wow.

Edit3: and 'Tec #526. Neh, weak issue, mostly because the first half and the plot with the group of villains. It felt unnecessary. But I guess is what it is, with this issue being an anniversary special. The plot with Croc and the Todds could've had a better end, without that filling subplot (that felt so silver agey). The story was nice overall, and I like this version of Vicki.

I'll following forward issues some other day. For now, I'm done reading .

[Sergard]

I'm surprised how scary pre-crisis is so far. I've already read a lot of Jason's post crisis Robin run - and there are dark moments, of course. Batman: The Cult is darker than dark. But post-crisis never had this scary monster vibe, in my eyes. Here, one has Squid's deadly squid, Killer Croc and Man-Bat in a row. I'd like to joke that writers read too much Goosebumps. But Goosebumps started much later in 1992.

I don't like how Jason's emotions regarding his parents' death were portrayed. Sure, there was a moment when he faltered but then he calls Bruce his new father - which is a cute scene, but it happened so fast, too fast for my taste.

Pre-crisis Batman and post-crisis Batman don't seem so different when it comes to some bad guy laying a finger on one of the batkids.