Anna Marie: Rogue Appreciation 2019

[Ultimate Rogue]

Dude, you're blaming Carol for being a victim.

He didn't and has never blamed Carol for being a victim, I could explain, but that's not for me to add rational reason too.

[/QUOTE] She absolutely does not need to take responsibility for what happened. [/QUOTE]

that is debatable, many faiths, beliefs and philosophies would ask us all to take responsibility, and even with out all that, taking responsibility is a part of growing up, maturing, 'getting your s**t together'. Which is never helped by peoples knee jerk reactions to ideas that are uncomfortable to them and use the following strawman arguments;

[/QUOTE] It's almost like saying a rape victim is asking for it for being raped. [/QUOTE]

Is it worth dredging such stuff up just to win petty points for your argument. No it's not, imo

[/QUOTE] What Rogue did was horrible, she attacked Carol, stole her powers and through her off the bridge to die. [/QUOTE]

You couldn't of read what we were discussing, I'm not going to waste my time re-typing the same stuff. In what we've typed we theorise the 'horrible', 'attack', 'theft', 'intent to kill', but you're obviously seeing/distilling things down to melodrama, and that's fine, these are just comic books after all, but don't accuse someone of 'blame', as you yourself are being a hypocrite in jumping to blame someone.

I agree with the rest of your post

I'm perfectly fine with no flight and super strength for Rogue in the movies. Making her more effective in battle is more important and as X-Men evolution showed, she doesn't need to be a flying brick for that.

Yeah, Rogues versatile, but it would be nice to have a live action flying brick at some point

[K7P5V]

Thanks for these 616MarvelYear, I always enjoy them keep up the good work




Today I've been pondering Rogues rogue gallery;

Mystique
Lady Mastermind
Grim Reaper and so probably Nekra
Moonstone
Captain Marvel (debatable - see below)
Vargas
Corvus Glaive and so probably Proxima
Red Skull and Sin with Crossbones
Some Legion personalities
Viper
Pandemic
Emplate and DOA
Master Scientist
Strobe? from MLF


Less personal but still might be butt-hurt by getting their asses handed to them by our sassy southern brawler!;

Juggernaut
Gladiator (possibly not in the 616)
Hulk
The Celestial (Exitar)
Children of the Vault
Proteus
Shadow King
High Evolutionary
Ahab
Nimrod
Golgotha
Mortis maybe
Mr Sinister
Apolcalypse Twins
Kang
Charmaine Grand
Gravitron
Ares
Bastion


Personal but not necessarily antagonistic;

Magneto
PymTron
Sentry
Blindspot
Dazzler
Priscilla and Owen
ROM
Scarlet Witch
Deadpool

Great list. But don't forget:

- Mojo
- Omega Red
- Master Mold
- The Savage Land Mutates
- The Press Gang
- The Reavers
- The Marauders

[Ultimate Rogue]

Great list. But don't forget:

- Mojo
- Omega Red
- Master Mold
- The Savage Land Mutates
- The Press Gang
- The Reavers
- The Marauders

Ah yes,

I considered Mojo, the ending of the current Mr and Mrs X arc might make him a more personal rogue to Rogue

Omega Red - he has more beef with other X-Men than Rogue, iirc

The Marauders I associate as Gambits rogues more than Rogue, but with the marriage I suppose a 'What's Mine is Yours and What's Yours is Mine' comes into play.

Master Mold and Press Gang, I need to read up on

Savage Land Mutates and Reavers could be Rogue rogues for sure

[mikeb]

Damn that smuck Michael Rossi, another rogue to add to Rogues rogues! ha

Your theory definitely humanizes Carol. Imo, it gives her more depth and pathos and also empowers her more than the victim that Marvel had been perpetuating for years, if there was an element of dejected despair to her character at that time (PTSD), then she all of a sudden, in my eyes becomes so much more, I can relate and empathize to her. I think they kind of tried to show mental health issues but the Rogue stuff got diminished by the need to salvage or quickly move Carol on from that Marcus story.

After years of Marvel pushing the tag line/synopsis of reformed-villain on Rogue and wronged hero on Carol and now Carol as 'practically perfect in every way' to one up Wonder Woman, I'm not sure whether Marvel would have the guts to risk the wrath of the female empowerment above all else crowd that they are aggressively targeting in their marketing of the movie, unless Disney have noticed the wealth of humanity/fun/feels/engaging/accessibility that Rogues character brings to a party!

I love Disney, I do, Hiya Mickey if you're reading, How's Minnie? Aw Well give her my regards, Cheerio, toodle-oo



PS Thanks for the scans mikeb, I read in the Romy thread that you're new to it all as am I on this site, there is a checkbox along the process of inserting an image that reads 'Retrieve remote file and reference locally' if you're uploading the image to a hosting site, check or uncheck (cant remember right now) the box to make the image visible to unsigned up readers, well, only if you want.

Well, I'm going to ignore the naysayers who are only willing to see what is on surface and unwilling to look deeper.
Now, I have a piece from Carol's Ms.Marvel series to me implies that Carol had the mental state that she could have been pushed to the breaking point after the Marcus debacle. Carol wakes up screaming from a nightmare, which ends up waking up her landlord. They talk, and the landlord very acutely points out Carol's mental state and depending on no one but herself. Carol ignores the landlords wise counsel.Note, this takes place 3 years before Avengers Annual #10 came out but is written by the same writer, Chris Claremont. This is Ms.Marvel #17, dated May 1978. (I have all 23 issues of the original run, as well as the Essential Ms. Marvel, which collects the run.)
Now a second point about why Carol may have wanted to purge herself of who and what she was as Ms.Marvel. Why did Marcus choose Carol as his vassal when there were 2 other Avenger gals available, Janet Pym and Wanda Maximoff. Did he go eny, meany, miny,mo? No. Did he think "Blonds have more fun"? No. Macus choose Carol specificly for her Kree-human makeup. The thought? If Carol could purge herself of what made her a superhero, she would never be exploited like this again.

[Ultimate Rogue]

Ah interesting, Claremont sure had writing skills. (understatement)

I wonder what research Ms/Miss/Mrs? Thompson did for the upcoming throw down. From her podcast, a couple of pages back in this thread, she definitely was very team Rogue as a youngster, so I'm hoping she stood her ground against the current 'love is blind' push of Captain Marvel. Carols complicated and by no means a pure, whiter than white role model.

The Carol, Rogue dynamic is far more than goodie vs baddie, it has definable authoritarian vs rebel, young vs old, combatant vs teen and many more angles that good writers could/have used to provoke the thoughts of readers.

Both characters have much to offer, but I genuinely think Rogue has more, especially to a younger audience that may be struggling with their own, but mostly environmental/social concepts of co-operation, acceptance of self and others and their innate sometimes wise want to rebel at times.

She dubbed herself Rogue, as she started chastising herself at a young age, lay off the Baddie label Marvel and Carol fans, you come across as uncaring, cold and ruthless, almost villain-ly. It's an uncomfortable truth that some people need the rebel against parents/authority for their own sake, they're not 'bad' people.

Rant over

Who's up for a Uncanny Avengers with Rogue and Carol at the helm?


--------------------------Rogue-------------------------------- Carol

[Ichijinijisanji]

https://i.imgur.com/BU21MsK.gifv
It 'might' be my fanboyism speaking, but I'm normally pretty rational about everything else in life, BUT, I do think the ball is in Carols court now. She needs to acknowledge that Rogue was young, groomed, alone, scared of a pretty reliable precognition, stressed at her condition (mutation) and that Carol herself was older and military trained.

https://i.imgur.com/XcKQ8dZ.jpg

Carol has already acknowledged that Rogue was misled rather than evil.
It doesn't matter though, because writers would want to keep milking this cow.
Same way how rogue keeps losing control of her powers (even if kelly thompson fixes her in mr./mrs. x it would be reverted eventually), because that's the familiar/more compelling version of her with that ongoing internal conflict, or spider-man keeping becoming a loser again instead of keeping parker industries and growing, or hulk losing control of the hulk again even though they had established them to be one and the same person.

Yes, I believe Carol needs to take at least some responsibility for what happened there on the Golden Gate. For starters, the whole idea that Carol believed she could somehow walk away from her "former" live and it would never catch up with her was ludicrous. Carol made enemies playing superhero and all of her ememies had one thing in common: they all have an ego. Sooner or later one of them was going to hunt her down and want payback. Here I'm showing images from UXM#203, where Rogue is reliving the events of the Golden Gate. Also I am inclosing an page from UXM#182 which Rogue states her encounter with Carol on the Golden Gate was not the first time they fought. If this is so, why didn't Carol learn anything about how to deal with a second encounter with Rogue? With all her military training and her enhanced powers Carol couldn't deal with a scawny teenage girl from the Mississippi outback? Which leads to a very controversial question: Did Carol want this to happen? Was Carol so fed up with her life as a super hero, especially after the Marcus debacal, she wanted rid to herself of it? If you read the original Ms.Marvel series, Carol had a period of split personality problems of one side being Carol and one side being this Kree warrior Ms.Marvel. Was Carol trying to rid herself of her "other" self and didn't think of the unintended consiquences?
[img]Scan2019-02-28_070440_000.jpg[/img]
[img]Scan2019-02-28_070440_001.jpg[/img]
[img]Scan2019-02-28_070440_002.jpg[/img]

Pretty pointless retcon. It removes her being misled by her mother and turns it into a revenge thing instead of a self defense thing.

Anyway, Ms. Marvel 25 was eventually completed and published in Marvel-Superheroes 11 in the 90s after she had become binary where carol didn't know who rogue was or how her powers worked except that she was going to take away her life from her (through a 7th sense vision i think), and rogue introduced herself to carol as though they had met the first time.

https://imgur.com/a/ZWaMJbL

Additionally explains why rogue was stronger (borrowed powers), so I guess it added some things and retconned that retcon back.

[Ichijinijisanji]

I trust Rogue kicks the muck out of Gladiator amid the Shi'ar curve. This X-Men 92' battle was disappointing, not once utilizing her greatest favorable position, her ingestion.

i remeber when even gambit beat gladiator (full decka cards is apparently OP AF)

[Ultimate Rogue]

https://i.imgur.com/XcKQ8dZ.jpg

Cool, thanks will reply later when I got more time

[mikeb]

The one thing that is never dealt with about the Rogue and Carol encounter on the Golden Gate is Carol's emotional and psychological state at the time of the encounter. Carol at the time was an emotional and psychological basket case due to the trauma of ugly events she went through with Marcus and Marcus messing with her head. This is shone at the end of Avengers Annual #10 and reaffirmed 20 years later in Kurt Busiek's Avengers Vol 3 #47, where Carol relives the Marcus events in a dream during a time she has to deal with a parralel Marcus who is Kang's son. My question is: did Carol's mental and emotional state at the time impact what went down between her and Rogue? People who have been traumatised sometimes do irrational things in response to the trauma and end up regretting it later. 95% + of what happen between Carol and Rogue are from Rogue's point of view in flashbacks. For Carol, as far as what happen with her between the time she excapes Marcus's limbo and her encounter with Rogue is basicly a blank space. Did Carol have a mental breakdown during this time? Did she feel that the only way to free of the Ms.Marvel "prison" was to rid herself of it? From Carol's point of view before her encounter with Rogue has to shown to answer these questions.

[Ichijinijisanji]

The one thing that is never dealt with about the Rogue and Carol encounter on the Golden Gate is Carol's emotional and psychological state at the time of the encounter. Carol at the time was an emotional and psychological basket case due to the trauma of ugly events she went through with Marcus and Marcus messing with her head. This is shone at the end of Avengers Annual #10 and reaffirmed 20 years later in Kurt Busiek's Avengers Vol 3 #47, where Carol relives the Marcus events in a dream during a time she has to deal with a parralel Marcus who is Kang's son. My question is: did Carol's mental and emotional state at the time impact what went down between her and Rogue? People who have been traumatised sometimes do irrational things in response to the trauma and end up regretting it later. 95% + of what happen between Carol and Rogue are from Rogue's point of view in flashbacks. For Carol, as far as what happen with her between the time she excapes Marcus's limbo and her encounter with Rogue is basicly a blank space. Did Carol have a mental breakdown during this time? Did she feel that the only way to free of the Ms.Marvel "prison" was to rid herself of it? From Carol's point of view before her encounter with Rogue has to shown to answer these questions.

We see carol's point of view. She wanted to get rid of people who'd hurt her like mystique and rogue.
Even if she did want to get rid of her powers, she didn't really know what rogue's were or how they worked.

She tries to see the bright side of different situation, like even with the brood torturing/experimenting on her and turning her into binary, she looks at the bright side by saying "hey atleast now I get to go in space"
I wouldn't go and reframe that event as her saying "Hey maybe I'll let these brood experiment on me, and get powers back"

[Ultimate Rogue]

It was nice to see Carol say that to Peter Parker?

a nit pick of mine would be the word misled, ha! I'm being defensive of our Roguey, I know, but it implies Carol still being self-centered, which is understandable and realistic (I don't mean that as a negative, but just a human trait).

The other issue with Carol (writers) would be her various memory losses, not quite sure were she is with that at the moment. Rogue is in a tricky position of maybe not wanting to remind her of past hurts and traumas.


Mystique could be the big bad of a UA series, bring in Nightcrawler too.

[sbo]

Thanks for these 616MarvelYear, I always enjoy them keep up the good work




Today I've been pondering Rogues rogue gallery;

Mystique
Lady Mastermind
Grim Reaper and so probably Nekra
Moonstone
Captain Marvel (debatable - see below)
Vargas
Corvus Glaive and so probably Proxima
Red Skull and Sin with Crossbones
Some Legion personalities
Viper
Pandemic
Emplate and DOA
Master Scientist
Strobe? from MLF


Less personal but still might be butt-hurt by getting their asses handed to them by our sassy southern brawler!;

Juggernaut
Gladiator (possibly not in the 616)
Hulk
The Celestial (Exitar)
Children of the Vault
Proteus
Shadow King
High Evolutionary
Ahab
Nimrod
Golgotha
Mortis maybe
Mr Sinister
Apolcalypse Twins
Kang
Charmaine Grand
Gravitron
Ares
Bastion


Personal but not necessarily antagonistic;

Magneto
PymTron
Sentry
Blindspot
Dazzler
Priscilla and Owen
ROM
Scarlet Witch
Deadpool

Since Mystery in Madripoor, i'd add the Femme Fatales to the Rogue's rogues list.
Knockout in particular, she and Rogue certainly have some bad blood between them now.
I still don't quite get what her power level is, but I guess it must be up there pretty high.


Punchout from the Magistrates also had some animosity towards Rogue after getting her powers absorbed.

[Ichijinijisanji]

It was nice to see Carol say that to Peter Parker?

Sort of, as it does show that her being willing to stand up for rogue being called evil instead of going along with it when she's not around means it's genuine when she said it to rogue and she seems to be over the whole "did I really forgive her?" phase.

a nit pick of mine would be the word misled, ha! I'm being defensive of our Roguey, I know, but it implies Carol still being self-centered, which is understandable and realistic (I don't mean that as a negative, but just a human trait).

There's no self centeredness here unless you want carol to just say "Hey it was kinda my fault what happened". Acknowledging that rogue was just a misguided kid rather than evil or a villain (which carries the implication of rogue being a victim here too) and shifting the blame of what happened onto mystique (who had killed her boyfriend and was just in general a dick to carol) should be perfect line to draw.

As far as the memory thing goes: Writers including KSD who introduced the total memory loss thing (instead of just the emotional ties) have forgotten about it outside of rare references by ewing in the ultimates. It doesn't seem to play a part at all whatsoever.

[Ultimate Rogue]

As far as the memory thing goes: Writers including KSD who introduced the total memory loss thing (instead of just the emotional ties) have forgotten about it outside of rare references by ewing in the ultimates. It doesn't seem to play a part at all whatsoever.

Cool, good to know, Thank You

[RachelGrey]

This is slightly off topic, but one of my favourite Rogue stories was when they were captured by the Genosha government and with her powers suppressed Rogue was overwhelmed with the way the soldiers were touching her and implying they were going to use her. She retreated her personality deep into her mind and let Carol's personality take over. I found it interesting that the Carol persona inside Rogue was actually really protective of her. I liked the dynamic of powerless secret agent Carol/Rogue working with Wolverine to get rescue everyone.

I think it would be good in the comics to have Rogue and Carol actually talk this out sometime.