Phoenix as a character

[Wiccan]

No! It only works with Eddie and Venom because Eddie and Venom have grown as people over the past couple of years!

Pfft. It's all about that hot slimy black form and the damn tongue touching Tom Hardy. A bird is less appealing, but if you make her a bit humanoid but not too much, the furries will eat it up.

[PhoenixStudies]

No!!

The Phoenix being separate from Jean was always a bad retcon. But it wasn't that bad when it was just a force and not a being or entity.

It becoming its own character was a really really bad retcon. What made it not so bad was that it usually took on the form and personality of Jean even when interacting with other characters like Rachel, etc.

I agree with Wiccan in that I could only get behind this if the Phoenix Force and Jean had a lesbian relationship. Really, the Phoenix is the greatest love of Jean's life. Their breakup in PR 5 was more heartbreaking than the dissolution of Jean and Scott's marriage in New X-Men.

They keep trying to separate the Phoenix from Jean but it never fully works because in the original story Phoenix was Jean having reached her potential. Even after all the retcons there are several issues that reference the Phoenix as representing Jean's potential. Since the Phoenix sagas were Jean's main and most famous storyline, it will always be associated with her.

[Snoop Dogg]

We need to hold some kind of cross-time competition to find out which X-Office has done the most to ruin DPS. Winner gets a Phoenix bib.

[angrt1]

I want for Jean/Phoenix to become the lesbian version of Venom/Eddie.

I’m here for this!!

[Triniking1234]

I want for Jean/Phoenix to become the lesbian version of Venom/Eddie.

Isn't that just Single White Female?

[Zero Hunter]

I just want the whole Phoenix concept to go away for a long long time. It has been beat so far into the ground at this point it just needs to go away. Phoenix, Thanos, and the Infinity Stones are the big three overused things in Marvel history.

[angrt1]

I would LOVEE to see the Phoenix drawn as she was by Russel Dauterman in Jane Foster Thor she was SOOO BEAUTIFUL MY EYES WERE LEAKINNNNNNNN

[CRaymond]

Toxic codependency between two incredibly overpowered women is already baked into Rayana.

[PhoenixStudies]

The Phoenix mythos is an epic clusterf**k at this point, but while we are on this....

If the Phoenix Force can create bodies for itself or replace people like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, such as in the 1986 retcon *, then why does it need to manifest through a host? Why hasn't it done this before or since the incident with Jean? Or is this one of the things that makes Jean special (she has become Phoenix and it has become her, is this why they can become one?)?? *It was always true in the retcon that a part of the real Jean's soul/consciousness merged with the Phoenix body but some stories conveniently forget that.

If the Phoenix Force has its own telepathy and telekinesis and can grant these abilities to Namor, Colossus, and Cyclops among others, then why did it ever need Jean or Rachel anyway? Or does its psychic abilities come from its having been bonded with Jean and Rachel? Since Jean has been established as having unlimited potential and can absorb psychic energy and even resurrect or near resurrect/reconstitute herself then why did Jean ever need the Phoenix Force anyway?

If a sword or bullet/gun can be a vessel for the Phoenix Force, why does it need a living host (doesn't this suggest that it does not)?

Why is Jean considered the "prime host" and "perfect vessel" by the Phoenix Force? What does it mean to be a White Phoenix or a White Phoenix of the Crown?

Is it just coincidence that many of the most important Phoenixes have red hair and green eyes such as Jean Grey, Rachel Summers-Grey, Madelyne Pryor, Hope Summers, Fonji and Lady Phoenix (cave-woman)??

Is it just coincidence that many of Jean's relatives have a connection to the Phoenix-- her clone, daughter, and adopted granddaughter? Even Nate Grey manifested the Phoenix raptor once. There were stories that implied that Cable might inherit the power someday. There were alternate reality stories where Rachel and Franklins kid had the Phoenix. Stories like Here Comes Tomorrow and End of Greys establish that the Grey bloodline* has a connection to the Phoenix, but other stories have us believe that it is all coincidence. *similar to how other stories have a connection between the Rookshir family among the Shiar and the Phoenix.

What happened to the Phoenix Consciousness and the Phoenix Corp?

Why was the Phoenix shown in 12 year old Jean's mind in the Classic #42 backstory?

Did Teen Jean keep the Phoenix spark after she was resurrected in Jean Grey #11?

Does Scott still have a Phoenix sliver trapped in a cage in his heart?

[lurkerforyears]

The Phoenix mythos is an epic clusterf**k at this point, but while we are on this....

If the Phoenix Force can create bodies for itself or replace people like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, such as in the 1986 retcon *, then why does it need to manifest through a host? Why hasn't it done this before or since the incident with Jean? Or is this one of the things that makes Jean special (she has become Phoenix and it has become her, is this why they can become one?)?? *It was always true in the retcon that a part of the real Jean's soul/consciousness merged with the Phoenix body but some stories conveniently forget that.

If the Phoenix Force has its own telepathy and telekinesis and can grant these abilities to Namor, Colossus, and Cyclops among others, then why did it ever need Jean or Rachel anyway? Or does its psychic abilities come from its having been bonded with Jean and Rachel? Since Jean has been established as having unlimited potential and can absorb psychic energy and even resurrect or near resurrect/reconstitute herself then why did Jean ever need the Phoenix Force anyway?

If a sword or bullet/gun can be a vessel for the Phoenix Force, why does it need a living host (doesn't this suggest that it does not)?

Why is Jean considered the "prime host" and "perfect vessel" by the Phoenix Force? What does it mean to be a White Phoenix or a White Phoenix of the Crown?

Is it just coincidence that many of the most important Phoenixes have red hair and green eyes such as Jean Grey, Rachel Summers-Grey, Madelyne Pryor, Hope Summers, Fonji and Lady Phoenix (cave-woman)??

Is it just coincidence that many of Jean's relatives have a connection to the Phoenix-- her clone, daughter, and adopted granddaughter? Even Nate Grey manifested the Phoenix raptor once. There were stories that implied that Cable might inherit the power someday. There were alternate reality stories where Rachel and Franklins kid had the Phoenix. Stories like Here Comes Tomorrow and End of Greys establish that the Grey bloodline* has a connection to the Phoenix, but other stories have us believe that it is all coincidence. *similar to how other stories have a connection between the Rookshir family among the Shiar and the Phoenix.

What happened to the Phoenix Consciousness and the Phoenix Corp?

Why was the Phoenix shown in 12 year old Jean's mind in the Classic #42 backstory?

Did Teen Jean keep the Phoenix spark after she was resurrected in Jean Grey #11?

Does Scott still have a Phoenix sliver trapped in a cage in his heart?

I think the original idea, which I think was never lost, is that only the highest level of psychics and telekinetics can handle being phoenix hosts without going insane. I think Morrison makes Phoenix Jean mention moving millions of atoms with her mind when she erases or recreates reality.

[Celestialbodies]

As many times as the Phoenix comes and goes and finds a host...do you think it would be better if the Phoenix was made into a character? Given a human-ish form without a host and just made her join the Xmen? I think it would be an interesting dynamic with Jean, but also as a love interest for Scott or Logan.

Wasn't this very thing the whole purpose of Jason Aaron using the PF, in his Thor and Avenger stories? That and so he could make Logan "The Phoenix" again....






No, please literally every writer outside of Claremont, Morrison, and Davis have added nothing of substance to the PF, with each usage they've complete and utter disrespected and disregarded the mythos, concept, or anything that came before. The PF should be retired at this point for at least 10 years, just these two decades we've seen more people host the force than ever before.

[Triniking1234]

The Phoenix mythos is an epic clusterf**k at this point, but while we are on this....

If the Phoenix Force can create bodies for itself or replace people like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, such as in the 1986 retcon *, then why does it need to manifest through a host? Why hasn't it done this before or since the incident with Jean? Or is this one of the things that makes Jean special (she has become Phoenix and it has become her, is this why they can become one?)?? *It was always true in the retcon that a part of the real Jean's soul/consciousness merged with the Phoenix body but some stories conveniently forget that.

If the Phoenix Force has its own telepathy and telekinesis and can grant these abilities to Namor, Colossus, and Cyclops among others, then why did it ever need Jean or Rachel anyway? Or does its psychic abilities come from its having been bonded with Jean and Rachel? Since Jean has been established as having unlimited potential and can absorb psychic energy and even resurrect or near resurrect/reconstitute herself then why did Jean ever need the Phoenix Force anyway?

If a sword or bullet/gun can be a vessel for the Phoenix Force, why does it need a living host (doesn't this suggest that it does not)?

Why is Jean considered the "prime host" and "perfect vessel" by the Phoenix Force? What does it mean to be a White Phoenix or a White Phoenix of the Crown?

Is it just coincidence that many of the most important Phoenixes have red hair and green eyes such as Jean Grey, Rachel Summers-Grey, Madelyne Pryor, Hope Summers, Fonji and Lady Phoenix (cave-woman)??

Is it just coincidence that many of Jean's relatives have a connection to the Phoenix-- her clone, daughter, and adopted granddaughter? Even Nate Grey manifested the Phoenix raptor once. There were stories that implied that Cable might inherit the power someday. There were alternate reality stories where Rachel and Franklins kid had the Phoenix. Stories like Here Comes Tomorrow and End of Greys establish that the Grey bloodline* has a connection to the Phoenix, but other stories have us believe that it is all coincidence. *similar to how other stories have a connection between the Rookshir family among the Shiar and the Phoenix.

What happened to the Phoenix Consciousness and the Phoenix Corp?

Why was the Phoenix shown in 12 year old Jean's mind in the Classic #42 backstory?

Did Teen Jean keep the Phoenix spark after she was resurrected in Jean Grey #11?

Does Scott still have a Phoenix sliver trapped in a cage in his heart?

Now I know why you called yourself "PhoenixStudies".

[Ulfhammer]

The Phoenix mythos is an epic clusterf**k at this point, but while we are on this....

If the Phoenix Force can create bodies for itself or replace people like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, such as in the 1986 retcon *, then why does it need to manifest through a host? Why hasn't it done this before or since the incident with Jean? Or is this one of the things that makes Jean special (she has become Phoenix and it has become her, is this why they can become one?)?? *It was always true in the retcon that a part of the real Jean's soul/consciousness merged with the Phoenix body but some stories conveniently forget that.

If the Phoenix Force has its own telepathy and telekinesis and can grant these abilities to Namor, Colossus, and Cyclops among others, then why did it ever need Jean or Rachel anyway? Or does its psychic abilities come from its having been bonded with Jean and Rachel? Since Jean has been established as having unlimited potential and can absorb psychic energy and even resurrect or near resurrect/reconstitute herself then why did Jean ever need the Phoenix Force anyway?

If a sword or bullet/gun can be a vessel for the Phoenix Force, why does it need a living host (doesn't this suggest that it does not)?

Why is Jean considered the "prime host" and "perfect vessel" by the Phoenix Force? What does it mean to be a White Phoenix or a White Phoenix of the Crown?

Is it just coincidence that many of the most important Phoenixes have red hair and green eyes such as Jean Grey, Rachel Summers-Grey, Madelyne Pryor, Hope Summers, Fonji and Lady Phoenix (cave-woman)??

Is it just coincidence that many of Jean's relatives have a connection to the Phoenix-- her clone, daughter, and adopted granddaughter? Even Nate Grey manifested the Phoenix raptor once. There were stories that implied that Cable might inherit the power someday. There were alternate reality stories where Rachel and Franklins kid had the Phoenix. Stories like Here Comes Tomorrow and End of Greys establish that the Grey bloodline* has a connection to the Phoenix, but other stories have us believe that it is all coincidence. *similar to how other stories have a connection between the Rookshir family among the Shiar and the Phoenix.

What happened to the Phoenix Consciousness and the Phoenix Corp?

Why was the Phoenix shown in 12 year old Jean's mind in the Classic #42 backstory?

Did Teen Jean keep the Phoenix spark after she was resurrected in Jean Grey #11?

Does Scott still have a Phoenix sliver trapped in a cage in his heart?

There's one set of answers for these questions if you just look at Claremont and perhaps Morrison. When taking canon as a whole, it's a disorganized, contradictory mess with no clear answers to anything you're asking.

The only way it really makes sense to me is that there are really two kinds of Phoenix's. The first is a manifestation of Jean's power, extension of her will, and an heirloom of her bloodline. This approach covers most of Jean and Rey's experiences with the PF verily neatly until recently. Then we have this second Phoenix which appears to be a fully realized entity of it's own, body snatching at will throughout history, with no specific connection to Jean.

The simplest approach at this point would be to separate these two highly contradictory characterizations and just retcon the non-Jean PF into something else entirely. You still have plot twists like Necrom that don't really seem to fit either approach but this would clean things up significantly. The Phoenix imagery and power manifestations should stay with Jean though, since she created them IMO.

[PsychoEFrost]

The Phoenix mythos is an epic clusterf**k at this point, but while we are on this....

If the Phoenix Force can create bodies for itself or replace people like the Invasion of the Body Snatchers, such as in the 1986 retcon *, then why does it need to manifest through a host? Why hasn't it done this before or since the incident with Jean? Or is this one of the things that makes Jean special (she has become Phoenix and it has become her, is this why they can become one?)?? *It was always true in the retcon that a part of the real Jean's soul/consciousness merged with the Phoenix body but some stories conveniently forget that.

If the Phoenix Force has its own telepathy and telekinesis and can grant these abilities to Namor, Colossus, and Cyclops among others, then why did it ever need Jean or Rachel anyway? Or does its psychic abilities come from its having been bonded with Jean and Rachel? Since Jean has been established as having unlimited potential and can absorb psychic energy and even resurrect or near resurrect/reconstitute herself then why did Jean ever need the Phoenix Force anyway?

If a sword or bullet/gun can be a vessel for the Phoenix Force, why does it need a living host (doesn't this suggest that it does not)?

Why is Jean considered the "prime host" and "perfect vessel" by the Phoenix Force? What does it mean to be a White Phoenix or a White Phoenix of the Crown?

Is it just coincidence that many of the most important Phoenixes have red hair and green eyes such as Jean Grey, Rachel Summers-Grey, Madelyne Pryor, Hope Summers, Fonji and Lady Phoenix (cave-woman)??

Is it just coincidence that many of Jean's relatives have a connection to the Phoenix-- her clone, daughter, and adopted granddaughter? Even Nate Grey manifested the Phoenix raptor once. There were stories that implied that Cable might inherit the power someday. There were alternate reality stories where Rachel and Franklins kid had the Phoenix. Stories like Here Comes Tomorrow and End of Greys establish that the Grey bloodline* has a connection to the Phoenix, but other stories have us believe that it is all coincidence. *similar to how other stories have a connection between the Rookshir family among the Shiar and the Phoenix.

What happened to the Phoenix Consciousness and the Phoenix Corp?

Why was the Phoenix shown in 12 year old Jean's mind in the Classic #42 backstory?

Did Teen Jean keep the Phoenix spark after she was resurrected in Jean Grey #11?

Does Scott still have a Phoenix sliver trapped in a cage in his heart?

Going down the list:

1) It can create bodies, but is weaker than if bonded.

2) It doesn't grant TP or TK. Scott, Namor, and Colossus could use it because Jean was still the WPotC and they were channeling her powers as well.

3) The sword contained a fragment of the Phoenix, channeling its energy without its consent.

4) WPotC means that Jean and the Phoenix have a complete bond. They fully understand one another. No longer in competition, but in harmony. Jean's natural Empathic abilities are a big reason why she worked so well with the Phoenix, plus her origin of seeing beyond the bounds of life and death.

5) The appearance thing is just Marvel being Marvel (red hair = flame powers)

6) The Phoenix loves the Grey family, hence why the Shi'Ar murdered them and why Rachel and the Phoenix worked so well together.

7) Retconned away I imagine

8) Original story that the Phoenix was supposed to be Jean's pinnacle form as a mutant. Retconned away.

9) Doesn't seem like it.

10) Possibly.

[PsychoEFrost]

I adore the Phoenix. I adore the Phoenix mythos. And she is her own character at this point. From watching over the beginning of mutantkind when she observed the slave uprising led by En Sabuh Nur, to finally bonding with a human and creating the Excalibur lighthouse, to her rejection of humans after Feron Jr. and Necrom each used her to try and kill one another, to returning at Jean's side and finding someone that truly understood her, her mission, and her loneliness. She's existed for 4 trillion years. She keeps coming back to Earth, to the X-Men, and to Jean because she has her own personality.