Broly vs. Jiren

[Morning]

I don't know if killing Broly quickly is really an option. When Vegeta went SSG, he was obviously way, way out of then-Broly's league. Even Goku seemed to think the blast vegeta fired at Broly was going to be fatal and begged him to stop. Instead it didn't even scratch him.

The impression I got was that his body instinctively raises its level depending on the danger he's in. That would explain how he never gets hurt or woozy until he's all the way maxed, unlike Goku who takes damage normally between power ups.

[The Arbiter]

I don't know if killing Broly quickly is really an option. When Vegeta went SSG, he was obviously way, way out of then-Broly's league. Even Goku seemed to think the blast vegeta fired at Broly was going to be fatal and begged him to stop. Instead it didn't even scratch him.

The impression I got was that his body instinctively raises its level depending on the danger he's in. That would explain how he never gets hurt or woozy until he's all the way maxed, unlike Goku who takes damage normally between power ups.

Eh, that ssg punch rocked him just fine. The blast struck him after he had already begun adjusting his power, hence why ice was melting in his vicinity and pressure was coming off of him. Had he not started that power up, the blast may very well have maimed him.

[Morning]

Eh, that ssg punch rocked him just fine.

It sends him flying very far, but he isn't visibly wounded or anything. True, he stays in the crater of the mountain for a long time; but he is conscious and not groaning or wincing like he is later when he's losing to Gojita. it looks more like he's just staying till and getting angry, as he does many times in the film.

The blast struck him after he had already begun adjusting his power, hence why ice was melting in his vicinity and pressure was coming off of him. Had he not started that power up, the blast may very well have maimed him.

May very well have, but there's no evidence to support it. It's just speculation. What isn't speculation is that he never gets hurt until he's maxed out, despite his opponents constantly making big, sudden, unexpected jumps in power. Granted, I've only seen the fight once, a couple of hours ago, so maybe I missed something.

Goku's horrified reaction to Vegeta's attack comes after the ice is melting anyway, so he clearly doesn't sense that Broly's present ki is anywhere near enough to protect him.

[The Arbiter]

See, this is where DB stuff gets hard to argue. Neither of us have the perfect argument here and there is some wiggle room for interpretation.

Just personally, visible damage isnt really /that/ important in DB. Like even Goku, in the ToP, despite ALL the blows he accumulates at various stages of stamina never really accrues visible damage beyond ripped clothing and tiny dirt like scratches until the very last moment. One eye has trouble fully opening after he loses MUI. But other than that, just tiny non bleeding scratches. No bruises or obvious broken bones.

Earlier DB stuff held visible damage in higher regard, but I feel it's trending away from that unless you are a Namekian lol.

Mileage may SERIOUSLY vary here. :P

[Xero Kaiser]

I think probably it depends on how long Broly can actually sustain the level of power he was operating at. Energy attrition matters a lot in Dragon Ball combat

If anything, a war of attrition seems like it would favor Broly. He was stomping everyone out for well over an hour without getting tired before he fought Gogeta and even then, it took quite a bit to actually wear him down.

[Tomzilla]

Broly in his strongest form (Legendary Super Saiyan) might just have what it takes to fight evenly with Jiren (pre-Limit Break). Jiren was simultaneously overpowering Goku, Vegeta, and Android 17 without breaking a sweat. Broly, however, reached a point where he was overpowering SSJ Gogeta, which is more impressive. Coupled with having endless stamina, Broly is more dangerous than ever. But if Jiren loses it and enters Limit Breaker mode, Broly's seconds are numbered.

[Ultra_Sonic]

See, this is where DB stuff gets hard to argue. Neither of us have the perfect argument here and there is some wiggle room for interpretation.

Just personally, visible damage isnt really /that/ important in DB. Like even Goku, in the ToP, despite ALL the blows he accumulates at various stages of stamina never really accrues visible damage beyond ripped clothing and tiny dirt like scratches until the very last moment. One eye has trouble fully opening after he loses MUI. But other than that, just tiny non bleeding scratches. No bruises or obvious broken bones.

Earlier DB stuff held visible damage in higher regard, but I feel it's trending away from that unless you are a Namekian lol.

Mileage may SERIOUSLY vary here. :P

That's because "current" Japanese broadcast standards by law prohibit/discourage visible heavy injuries. The manga is much different.

[buutenks]

Lssj Broly might be able to amp himself up above LB Jiren. But since it hasnt been specified, I assume Broly starts in base, to which he gets one shotted by Jiren. Since after all, in the ToP killing wasnt allowed, so Jiren had to pull back his punch vs anyone he fought lest he might kill them by accident. Jiren has no such handicap here.

Im sure tho if there will be a retelling of the Broly movie, we will get full clarification on where lssj/ssj Broly actually stands compared to Jiren.

[The Arbiter]

Lssj Broly might be able to amp himself up above LB Jiren. But since it hasnt been specified, I assume Broly starts in base, to which he gets one shotted by Jiren. Since after all, in the ToP killing wasnt allowed, so Jiren had to pull back his punch vs anyone he fought lest he might kill them by accident. Jiren has no such handicap here.

Im sure tho if there will be a retelling of the Broly movie, we will get full clarification on where lssj/ssj Broly actually stands compared to Jiren.

I figured Broly would be super saiyan for this thread.

Also, for feats, how do we treat the moment where Broly/Gogeta seem to break reality around them during their fight? Where the air cracks and becomes a crazy light show.

[buutenks]

I figured Broly would be super saiyan for this thread.

Also, for feats, how do we treat the moment where Broly/Gogeta seem to break reality around them during their fight? Where the air cracks and becomes a crazy light show.

Well it isnt really quantifiable since we dont know how big the dimension or reality plane was. However, the feat itself reinforces the fact that they are universe busters.

[Siriel]

Also, for feats, how do we treat the moment where Broly/Gogeta seem to break reality around them during their fight? Where the air cracks and becomes a crazy light show.

We treat it as a fancy lightshow, because that's what it was. Might as well try to quantify that time Black opened a rift in reality that closed as soon as he moved away from it.

Well it isnt really quantifiable since we dont know how big the dimension or reality plane was. However, the feat itself reinforces the fact that they are universe busters.

No it doesn't? They didn't bust anything; the place where the cracking happened was just fine.

[The Arbiter]

"Can tear holes in reality on a limited scale" still sounds pretty good tbh. Nebulous or otherwise, the clash of their powers briefly mucked with space/time/physics to the point where the sky seemed to shatter like glass iirc.

Edit: Also, Bitvyper and I both asked you some questions on page 1 if you have the time. =)

[Siriel]

"Can tear holes in reality on a limited scale" still sounds pretty good tbh. Nebulous or otherwise, the clash of their powers briefly mucked with space/time/physics to the point where the sky seemed to shatter like glass iirc.

It's 'good', but there's no way to tell if it's supposed to be more impressive than Vegeta exploding the Room of Spirit and Time, or Jiren and UI Goku shaking the Void, or Black tearing apart reality with his scythe.

We already knew that DB characters start doing weird things to the environment when they get powerful enough, so it doesn't really add anything. It's not like we can say that they can use this feat to ignore conventional durability, since neither Broly, Gogeta, nor even the place where it happened were damaged by it.

Edit: Also, Bitvyper and I both asked you some questions on page 1 if you have the time. =)

You said that the thread assumed the anime was canon to the movie, didn't see a point in continuing that particular discussion after that?

The lack of the forms that weren't in Toriyama's original draft are one, as is the complete lack of Ultra Instinct mentions*, and the fact that you have things like Goku taking effort to turn into Blue.

I'd have to go through the movie again for more details, but in general it really strongly shows the marks of Toriyama writing what he wants while ignoring everything else. Either way I'm just fairly certain that when the Super anime starts again the movie will get a Toei version of its story.

*: Goku saying he was afraid that he'd reached his limit when he knows there's at least one vastly more powerful form available to him that he hadn't mastered was especially strange.

[Len Ikari145]

It's 'good', but there's no way to tell if it's supposed to be more impressive than Vegeta exploding the Room of Spirit and Time, or Jiren and UI Goku shaking the Void, or Black tearing apart reality with his scythe.

We already knew that DB characters start doing weird things to the environment when they get powerful enough, so it doesn't really add anything. It's not like we can say that they can use this feat to ignore conventional durability, since neither Broly, Gogeta, nor even the place where it happened were damaged by it.



You said that the thread assumed the anime was canon to the movie, didn't see a point in continuing that particular discussion after that?

The lack of the forms that weren't in Toriyama's original draft are one, as is the complete lack of Ultra Instinct mentions*, and the fact that you have things like Goku taking effort to turn into Blue.

I'd have to go through the movie again for more details, but in general it really strongly shows the marks of Toriyama writing what he wants while ignoring everything else. Either way I'm just fairly certain that when the Super anime starts again the movie will get a Toei version of its story.

*: Goku saying he was afraid that he'd reached his limit when he knows there's at least one vastly more powerful form available to him that he hadn't mastered was especially strange.

Considering it's a form that he can't reliably access or control without certain conditions being met, it makes sense that he would omit it. In the new manga chapters following the ToP and Broly, he even told Vegeta that he hasn't been able to use it since the ToP. Furthermore, he did attempt to transform into it while trying to expel Broly's ki from his body.

[Siriel]

Considering it's a form that he can't reliably access or control without certain conditions being met, it makes sense that he would omit it.

It doesn't because he knows it's possible to reliably access it; he just hasn't managed it yet. Saying that he feels he's reached his limit when he's already experienced a higher form makes no sense at all.

Furthermore, he did attempt to transform into it while trying to expel Broly's ki from his body.

Neither the script nor the novelizations mention anything about it. People are just creating fanon from a transitional color on the way to Blue, further fueled by click-bait titles like that one.