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  1. #3091
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    You know, I've read TDPS so many times but I've never even noticed those mystical allusions before. I'll need to keep an eye out for that next time around, especially the black fire stuff.
    You can find it in the issue after Jean transforms into DP and destroys the Hovercraft. A few pages in, I believe.

    These have always puzzled me as if there was more to Phoenix than what we saw and what we were told/shown.


    In addition, when Jean first fully transforms into Phoenix after the accident, and fights Firelord, it seems as if Phoenix was going to have solar powers. There is a panel that states that Phoenix blasts Firelord "backed by the power of the Sun itself." This seems odd for what we know of Phoenix.
    Last edited by Phoenixx9; 06-08-2020 at 06:12 PM.

  2. #3092
    Mighty Member whitecrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    You can find it in the issue after Jean transforms into DP and destroys the Hovercraft. A few pages in, I believe.

    These have always puzzled me as if there was more to Phoenix than what we saw and what we were told/shown.


    In addition, when Jean first fully transforms into Phoenix after the accident, and fights Firelord, it seems as if Phoenix was going to have solar powers. There is a panel that states that Phoenix blasts Firelord "backed by the power of the Sun itself." This seems odd for what we know of Phoenix.
    UXM 135 specifically. Claremont was definitely inspired by a lot of things even if all those influences never made it onto the page explicitly. I've also read theories that Mastermind was under control of Shadow King and the Muir Island Saga would have revealed that the Dark Phoenix Saga was essentially put into play because of him. Small hints like how Proteus was unable to affect Mastermind with his reality warping powers (even though there's no way Mastermind would be immune to that on his own), how Mastermind was able to fight Cyclops in a psychic duel on the astral plane when his powers never enabled him to do that, or even how an essentially braindead or vegetable Mastermind was alive again for UXM 175. All of it makes more sense if the Shadow King had always been in control of him and brought him back for the From the Ashes storyline that introduced Maddie. I think this was also when Destiny was having visions of a being outside reality although maybe that was supposed to be the Beyonder and not Shadow King. But it's pretty telling that in one of the What If? issues where Phoenix was still alive and depowered, Mastermind is haunting her to take her power. Eventually it turns out that Mastermind's body is just a dead husk being controlled by Shadow King who is the real threat and Phoenix is able to destroy him for good in battle.

    One thing I noticed is that while everyone portrays Phoenix with cosmic fire powers these days, in the 1970s, the only fire that seemed to come into play was her manifesting a fiery raptor. Even then, it seemed to be psionic in nature because it never burned characters with flame and Jean never was shown throwing fire from her hands like the Human Torch. It seemed like her powers were all energy-based (Claremont called her an energy manipulator in X-Men Forever) as Phoenix was a being of pure energy and life incarnate. Hence why the M'Kraan Crystal starts to absorb her because she's not flesh and blood anymore and it takes Storm and the other X-Men to keep Phoenix tethered to humanity and not fully absorbed. I think she only starts burning people in Dark Phoenix but even that might not be fire as much as pure cosmic energy that burns Storm and the other characters. Even when she manifests the Phoenix Raptor in UXM 135 before departing for the stars, there's a whole explanation about how she used the lightning from a storm to do that.
    Last edited by whitecrown; 06-08-2020 at 06:21 PM.

  3. #3093
    Ultimate Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitecrown View Post
    UXM 135 specifically. Claremont was definitely inspired by a lot of things even if all those influences never made it onto the page explicitly. I've also read theories that Mastermind was under control of Shadow King and the Muir Island Saga would have revealed that the Dark Phoenix Saga was essentially put into play because of him. Small hints like how Proteus was unable to affect Mastermind with his reality warping powers (even though there's no way Mastermind would be immune to that on his own), how Mastermind was able to fight Cyclops in a psychic duel on the astral plane when his powers never enabled him to do that, or even how an essentially braindead or vegetable Mastermind was alive again for UXM 175. All of it makes more sense if the Shadow King had always been in control of him and brought him back for the From the Ashes storyline that introduced Maddie. I think this was also when Destiny was having visions of a being outside reality although maybe that was supposed to be the Beyonder and not Shadow King. But it's pretty telling that in one of the What If? issues where Phoenix was still alive and depowered, Mastermind is haunting her to take her power. Eventually it turns out that Mastermind's body is just a dead husk being controlled by Shadow King who is the real threat and Phoenix is able to destroy him for good in battle.

    One thing I noticed is that while everyone portrays Phoenix with cosmic fire powers these days, in the 1970s, the only fire that seemed to come into play was her manifesting a fiery raptor. Even then, it seemed to be psionic in nature because it never burned characters with flame and Jean never was shown throwing fire from her hands like the Human Torch. It seemed like her powers were all energy-based (Claremont called her an energy manipulator in X-Men Forever) as Phoenix was a being of pure energy and life incarnate. Hence why the M'Kraan Crystal starts to absorb her because she's not flesh and blood anymore and it takes Storm and the other X-Men to keep Phoenix tethered to humanity and not fully absorbed. I think she only starts burning people in Dark Phoenix but even that might not be fire as much as pure cosmic energy that burns Storm and the other characters. Even when she manifests the Phoenix Raptor in UXM 135 before departing for the stars, there's a whole explanation about how she used the lightning from a storm to do that.
    I was going from memory with the issue.

    Yes, while Phoenix is an energy creature, I never have seen it since mentioned about solar powers or her powers being backed by the Sun. Phoenix is a galactic being, much more powerful than our star, the Sun.

    I think Mastermind was protected from Proteus' power due to the White Queen (Emma)'s power, either she shared some with him, or because of the Mindtap Mechanism that he carried. Somehow, Mastermind seemed to have a higher Psyche that protected him (without his knowledge) and which might have allowed him to duel on the psychic plane.

    I do like your idea that Shadow King was somehow involved.
    Last edited by Phoenixx9; 06-08-2020 at 06:41 PM.

  4. #3094
    Mighty Member whitecrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenixx9 View Post
    I was going from memory with the issue.

    Yes, while Phoenix is an energy creature, I never have seen it since mentioned about solar powers or her powers being backed by the Sun. Phoenix is a galactic being, much more powerful than our star, the Sun.

    I think Mastermind was protected from Proteus' power due to the White Queen (Emma)'s power, either she shared some with him, or because of the Mindtap Mechanism that he carried. Somehow, Mastermind seemed to have a higher Psyche that protected him (without his knowledge) and which might have allowed him to duel on the psychic plane.

    I do like your idea that Shadow King was somehow involved.
    I think Claremont's line about her power being backed by the Sun itself was supposed to be Claremont's typical prose and supposed to establish just how powerful she was, especially since this was when she first debuted as Phoenix. And of course, later on we would learn she's even more powerful than a Sun and regularly consumes them so she's even more powerful than that, but that wasn't the case originally until Dark Phoenix.

    I'm not sure the White Queen could have done anything to protect Mastermind from Proteus. Besides the fact that he was in Europe and far away from her, if even Phoenix was affected by Proteus and he was one of the most powerful mutants ever, her power certainly wouldn't have accomplished anything. Same with the Mindtap Mechanism which Phoenix was able to easily burn away once she was back in control so Proteus certainly wouldn't have had his powers nullified from that alone. The astral duel can still be explained as something that anyone with even remotely psychic powers could access since Magneto used to regularly astral project in the Silver Age.

    It's a theory amongst some Claremont fans that Shadow King was behind Mastermind during the Phoenix Saga. Another hint is that during the Cross-Time Caper in Excalibur and also right before the Muir Island Saga during the Savage Land arc with Rogue, Magneto, and Nick Fury, it was revealed that Shadow King was the true power behind the Hellfire Club. In the Cross-Time Caper, Rachel reveals that in her reality, once she was captured and the X-Men gunned down by the army, Rachel was brought to the Hellfire Club only to realize that all of them were puppets under the Shadow King's rule. And Magneto himself revealed that he had learned a terrible truth that Shadow King had always been in control of the Hellfire Club and he had barely escaped with his life to the Savage Land. For whatever reason, it seems that Claremont wanted to retroactively establish Shadow King as the X-Men's ultimate big bad by making him responsible for both the Dark Phoenix Saga and Days of Future Past.

  5. #3095
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    If I remember well, Claremont had said that he would have done two movies of DOFP…
    I rather liked it, myself, though…
    That would have been better for sure. But I think they should have given Jean and Cyclops time to shine before starting the Phoenix story. As I said that would have required them to stop being their usual self.

  6. #3096
    Mighty Member whitecrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowfyr View Post
    That would have been better for sure. But I think they should have given Jean and Cyclops time to shine before starting the Phoenix story. As I said that would have required them to stop being their usual self.
    Exactly, there was no character attachment to Sophie's Jean and Tye's Scott. For that matter, there's never been any emotional attachment to Cyclops in the X-Men films.

  7. #3097
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    Some considerations about the DP movie:


    (SPOILERS)







    1- "Dark Phoenix" features the third alien element in the saga (D'Bari). Adamantium comes from an alien substance extracted from a meteor, and Apocalypse's special armour and body-swapping equipment are obviously alien (Celestial?).

    2- In the original timeline, the Cosmic Force was orbitating around Earth in 1992, but the X-Men weren't there (specifically, Jean Grey). Presumibly, the Force overlooked Earth and kept travelling across galaxies as always. D'Bari people followed it... elsewhere.

    3- Hank uses a different (new) serum, because he can convert into Beast without getting "angry", as evinced before the train fight.

    4- Mystique is the third X-Man to die in the second timeline, after Banshee and Havok.

    5- Vuk must be a "mutant" D'Bari and not a normal D'Bari, because she managed to handle the Force and absorb it from Jean.

    6- The helmet Magnet uses is similar to the one from "First Class", apparently.

    7- DP Selene resembles TLS Callisto a lot.

    8- Beast is the first X-Man to join the Brotherhood of Mutants (Magneto and Mystique don't count).

    9- The Mutant Containment Camp must have been existing BEFORE the events of "Dark Phoenix". This means that humans STILL secretly feared mutants, despite the X-Men had become national heroes.

    10- The Kitchen where Hank confronted Charles is not the same where Charles met Raven for the first time, as claimed. The school has been rebuilt from scratch at the end of "Apocalypse", indeed.

    11- In the movie, Raven criticized the use of identical uniforms. Surely she preferred the individual costumes adopted at the very end of "Apocalypse".

    12- Raven doesn't display any super-agility feats in either "Apocalypse" and "Dark Phoenix".

    13- Beast's make-up in DP was the best out of the 5 Fox movies featuring him.

    14- The "Killing Spree" of Nightcrawler is totally IN-CHARACTER. First, he already had got his "sin tattoos" by the age of 18-20 (see "Apocalypse"), and this means that rage and other negative aspects are already present in him.
    Besides, this version of Nightcrawler has a feral attitude, as evinced in the Danger Room at the end of "Apocalypse", where he growls like an animal.

    15- Storm could have kept Apocalypse's power enhacement, after all. The impressive multiple lightning display is very powerful and never shown by any other incarnation of Storm before.

    16- Storm apart, codenames are almost never mentioned.

    17- Jean/Phoenix did NOT kill any cop/policeman... indeed, TV stated that.
    In truth, Jean/Phoenix did not kill anyone outside the X-Men and did not destroy any major structure or building. The MCU train doesn't count.

    18- Xavier knew about the Endeavour Shuttle before it would even happen. In fact, he was arguing about the X-Jet with Beast long time before the President of the USA would call him. How? Well, Xavier still has access to the memories he absorbed from the Old Timeline Wolverine in 1973.
    I'm surprised that nobody has noticed this before.

  8. #3098
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    I think most of them did. They added a little more depth to a few scenes and I think they would've benefited the movie, overall, if they had been included. That said, I can understand why they were cut. The movie still works without them.
    I just think the "MIDDLE" of the movie (the funeral, Jean escaping to Genosha) is the WEAK section of the movie. Is there any delete scene able to improve that?

  9. #3099

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    Quote Originally Posted by BatKeaton View Post
    I just think the "MIDDLE" of the movie (the funeral, Jean escaping to Genosha) is the WEAK section of the movie. Is there any delete scene able to improve that?
    For the middle? No, none of the deleted scenes address that. Most of the deleted scenes either take place in the early parts of the movie, namely the shuttle mission and its aftermath, or the last act of the movie.

    But I don't disagree. I think the mid-point of the movie could've benefited from some more development.
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  10. #3100
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    For the middle? No, none of the deleted scenes address that. Most of the deleted scenes either take place in the early parts of the movie, namely the shuttle mission and its aftermath, or the last act of the movie.

    But I don't disagree. I think the mid-point of the movie could've benefited from some more development.
    Glad that you agree with me.

    I just feel like it's the only section of the movie truly lacking/missing development.

  11. #3101
    Invincible Member juan678's Avatar
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  12. #3102
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post



    Last edited by juan678; 06-27-2020 at 03:42 PM.

  13. #3103
    Spectacular Member MATBAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post
    That's kinda cool. It's kinda weird visiting this site after so many years. It's like a ghost town.

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