Daughters of Liberty Appreciation (2019)

[Snoop Dogg]

Soule said Echo came back because of SECRET WARS. Which to be fair, I think is the only way to just randomly bring back characters without being lazy. And she's cool while her death was wack, so this round goes to Charlie.

[OOTCS]

So I've started reading up on the characters I'm less familiar with on this team, and I have to know--does Toni ever end up meeting Tony Stark?

[Michael Watkins]

That's just lazy. Oh well... I'll just say it was the Hand in my own head canon and leave it at that for now.

what's lazy is Bendis killing all of those characters. it's his go-to move. and it sucks.

[Michael Watkins]

not sure how i feel about Toni Ho. there are just way too many female Iron Men running around; two of them relatively young stark-level geniuses. doesn't feel like she has her own identity from what I've read so far. like they quickly threw her into a romance to cover up the fact that there's not anything else going on w/ her. but i like Echo, Jessica Drew, and Susan Richards. bummed that Valkyrie isn't on the team.

[ed2962]

As I recall, Soule said online somewhere at the time that he didn't intend on addressing the explanation for Echo's resurrection. He said that the circumstances are something that Echo "prefers not to talk about", so he wasn't going to bring it up in the story. I'm not sure if that was supposed to mean that he has an explanation but didn't see a need and/or opportunity to get into it on-panel, or if was his way of justifying skating right past it and not coming up with an explanation at all.

Echo isn't the only dead character from that MOON KNIGHT run to turn up alive and well with no explanation though. The Night Shift were also killed off by Count Nefaria--but at least some of the dead members have turned up alive and well again in the new SUPERIOR SPIDER-MAN series, and as far as I'm aware there has been no explanation for their survival or resurrection yet either.

This sounds like what happened over at DC a few years back when Ed Brubaker was writing Catwoman. He brought back Catwoman's friend Holly without knowing that she was supposed to be dead at the time and none of the editors caught it. When some fans brought it up, DC just kinda hand waved it away.

[Digifiend]

not sure how i feel about Toni Ho. there are just way too many female Iron Men running around; two of them relatively young stark-level geniuses. doesn't feel like she has her own identity from what I've read so far. like they quickly threw her into a romance to cover up the fact that there's not anything else going on w/ her. but i like Echo, Jessica Drew, and Susan Richards. bummed that Valkyrie isn't on the team.

What Toni has going for her is the fact that she's the daughter of the guy who created the original Iron Man armor with Tony. Yet Toni and Tony have barely interacted so far. They should do something about that. Also, Toni started out working for Sunspot's AIM, then she became Rescue, then Iron Patriot - then realised she'd gone too far. Last we saw her (in the last arc of Bendis Iron Man), she was using a much slimmer armor, still in Iron Patriot colours, but much closer in utility to the Rescue armor. She should stay as Iron Patriot - Rescue is also Pepper Potts' codename, while the other two Iron Patriots (Green Goblin and War Machine) have both retired the identity. Another obvious way to distinguish her is to keep her away from the Champions - she should only work with Riri if both were to appear in the Iron Man book. She's already appeared in Champions, but that was just to bridge Vision's storyline from No Surrender to No Road Home, and was only in one issue. If Toni gets put back on a team book, it should be a secondary Avengers title. Toni and Riri's ages place them in different situations too. Riri's a teen attending college early, while Toni is in her 20s and graduated already.

[Michael Watkins]

What Toni has going for her is the fact that she's the daughter of the guy who created the original Iron Man armor with Tony. Yet Toni and Tony have barely interacted so far. They should do something about that. Also, Toni started out working for Sunspot's AIM, then she became Rescue, then Iron Patriot - then realised she'd gone too far. Last we saw her (in the last arc of Bendis Iron Man), she was using a much slimmer armor, still in Iron Patriot colours, but much closer in utility to the Rescue armor. She should stay as Iron Patriot - Rescue is also Pepper Potts' codename, while the other two Iron Patriots (Green Goblin and War Machine) have both retired the identity. Another obvious way to distinguish her is to keep her away from the Champions - she should only work with Riri if both were to appear in the Iron Man book. She's already appeared in Champions, but that was just to bridge Vision's storyline from No Surrender to No Road Home, and was only in one issue. If Toni gets put back on a team book, it should be a secondary Avengers title. Toni and Riri's ages place them in different situations too. Riri's a teen attending college early, while Toni is in her 20s and graduated already.

is Toni a citizen of the United States? and where's her terrorist brother? i remember there being a Sons of Yinsen storyline a long time ago.

[OOTCS]

What's cool about Toni is that her background sounds like a common supervillain origin story. Her relative died when she was little and she resented a famous superhero for it—rightly or wrongly—how many villains or former villains have we seen with that story? But not Toni. Instead of trying to get revenge, she resolved to do better. It's refreshing.

[Michael Watkins]

What's cool about Toni is that her background sounds like a common supervillain origin story. Her relative died when she was little and she resented a famous superhero for it—rightly or wrongly—how many villains or former villains have we seen with that story? But not Toni. Instead of trying to get revenge, she resolved to do better. It's refreshing.

that's a decent origin story. but i guess i'm expecting something more creative than just creating an iron man armor. i just haven't found a toni ho story that moved me yet. i find her girlfriend more interesting (and she was a complete cipher from what i remember).

[Digifiend]

is Toni a citizen of the United States? and where's her terrorist brother? i remember there being a Sons of Yinsen storyline a long time ago.

Yes, she's American.

[OOTCS]

that's a decent origin story. but i guess i'm expecting something more creative than just creating an iron man armor. i just haven't found a toni ho story that moved me yet. i find her girlfriend more interesting (and she was a complete cipher from what i remember).

Not just an Iron Man armor—a nonlethal Iron Man armor. Except it turns out that that's not very realistic, and she has to grapple with the very real contradiction between the "superheroes don't kill" ideal and the amount of force that they dish out regularly.

[Frontier]

What's cool about Toni is that her background sounds like a common supervillain origin story. Her relative died when she was little and she resented a famous superhero for it—rightly or wrongly—how many villains or former villains have we seen with that story? But not Toni. Instead of trying to get revenge, she resolved to do better. It's refreshing.

I don't think she ever resented Tony. I think she just expressed that she had very complicated feelings towards him.

[Digifiend]

Maybe if they interacted properly, we'd have that clarified.

[Crimz]

When's the next issue of Cap out?

[capandkirby]

When's the next issue of Cap out?

2/27/2019. Can't wait.