The Cure...

[Killerbee911]

As for your list of dangerous mutants; guess what has dealt with them every time?

The super-powered mutants known as the X-Men.

You didn't really answer the question. For example, Matthew Malloy killed all of the X-men and basically if not for an untrained student reckless time traveling the entire group of X-men was dead. The eventual solution was to make sure Malloy was never born. Nate Grey just took all the X-men off the face the planet. Mr. M had to be killed. Proteus has to be killed,Legion had to be killed.etc So your answer is allow a private milita to kill dangerous mutants. Yup that so much better than testing for powerful mutants and giving them cure a young age. Your solution is to let Superhero Antifa or Original Black Panther group be responable for the safety of mankind. Like said theorically answers don't work.Also there is no private milita that isn't under the general control of a goverment. Black Water now Academi has get US persmission to operate in Iraq undera certian set of rules( when Iraq goverment took back over the made US pull them out), And they can't operate in the US as peacekeeping force. The X-men couldn't exist in real life in country like the U.S. Real Life X-men is "X-factor" who would be following basically military or police rules and we know the rest.

As for "the science" for why it is easy to switch off and but not repower depowered mutant because the cure "deletes" x-gene in theory so there is nothing to put back when it time to repower. Collars probably in inhibit gene somehow.. Because Science

[yogaflame]

The mutant metaphor and the X-Men in particular are supposed to be about embracing your differences and making them work not just for yourself, but for the greater world. Considering X-Men like Rogue and Cyclops have on occasion transcended their 'limitations' to find control over their powers(when the narrative briefly breaks free of their played out tropes), shows that with the right amount of training(and/or telepathic/psychsomatic coaxing) mutants can own their individual expressions[of the x-gene] and become heroes.

Maybe it's the influx of the number of mutants in general/particularly extreme physical mutations that have emerged since the Morrison era that have highlighted this conundrum[of whether or not mutations should be chemically/biologically suppressed]. This deconstruction of the foundation of the franchise has obviously created fractures in the fan-base.

Before that, you had someone like Nightcrawler start out being attacked by a mob for his looks, and having to slowly but surely come to find peace in his appearance(that Bolton/Claremont backup issue with him and Logan in Salem Center is a classic), and revel in his capacity as a hero his powers(looks and all) bestow upon him. Such a metaphor is analogous to any number of situations where a real person's 'otherness' has to be claimed and emboldened for them to carry on in life, as opposed to rejecting their 'otherness' to fit in with the majority.

If you have mutants like Glob or Rockslide or Chamber reject their x-genes for the sake of ease and conformity, is that really a heroic trait? Chamber, for example, had a great storyline in Gen X(full of many odd mutants) where he went from abhorring his power to eventually becoming a huge powerhouse, capable of taking on Omega Red by submerging himself in a puddle(don't have to breath when you're a psionic plasmoid being...), or even moreso, when he dispelled D'Spayre in a huge energy burst, and reformed his own body from scratch(only to bust open his face again. Psychosomatic self-sabotage instead of just being 'his power'? Synch's face didn't blow off when he used his power...).

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Just taking a cure seems a cheap ploy. Kids need to learn the world is hard, it sucks a lot, and you have to find a way, even when it is not easy. The cure is a cop out(narratively).

[yogaflame]

Let's say you have a global mandate to test every child for their intelligence, let's even pretend that there is a specific gene that correlates with high intelligence for the sake of this metaphor. So the UN takes samples of every child upon birth and tests for this intelligence gene. Are you saying that if a child has extreme intelligence that could be used to potentially threaten the world, the UN has the right to extricate that gene from their genome?

While that high intelligence could be used for destruction, it could also be used for creation, maybe for a new energy source, or to cure cancer and heart disease or whatever. Who is the UN to decide how that intelligence could be applied? Do you really think the UN wouldn't just round up some of them and try to bend them to their own purposes? (Weapon X/Plus, the Hellfire Club's Hellions, etc, etc.)

Mandatory testing of children and altering them according to some arbitrary principal is fascism and not something to be championed. Even if the alternative is to wait to see how the child grows up and manifests their abilities, and deal with the repercussions then, that is far better than just wiping them out from the start before they've even had a chance to figure anything out.

And yes, I'd rather a willful group of individuals make those choices rather than a state/corporation. It's one thing for people to choose to cooperate to solve a problem. It's quite another for a mandated, bureaucratic assembly that transcends true person-hood(states/corporations) to try to do the same.

[U.N. Owen]

First, we should stop looking at mutants as a race. The only thing they have in common is that they have an x-gene that allows them to access a variety of powers. Some have physical mutations (Mystique and Colossus), other elemental (Storm and Iceman), some mental (Jean, Rachel, Charles, Julian), some animal-like features (Sabretooth, Logan, and X-23), and some weird (Franklin). This is a diverse group in and of itself. The point being is that you can't simply paint the entire world of mutants with one brush.

Second, some mutations are inherently dangerous to their users and the people around them. There was a mutant in the Ultimate Universe who killed everyone around him by simply being in the same area. IN 616, there is a girl whose nightmares would come to life when she slept and caused so many problems and she was immune to telepathy.

Third, there is the general population. Let's be honest, the Marvel Universe kind of sucks.

My stance is really more like how we treat neurological disorders. Some need to be cured because they are destructive to the person and the people around them (depression) while others can be managed through behavioral therapy and other treatments (autism). Sure, a world of superpowers is not going to be a simple 1 to 1 conversion, but neither is the world of the neurology.

[yogaflame]

Where is there a cure for depression? Or a treatment for autism, even?

[The tall man]

The mutant metaphor and the X-Men in particular are supposed to be about embracing your differences and making them work not just for yourself, but for the greater world. Considering X-Men like Rogue and Cyclops have on occasion transcended their 'limitations' to find control over their powers(when the narrative briefly breaks free of their played out tropes), shows that with the right amount of training(and/or telepathic/psychsomatic coaxing) mutants can own their individual expressions[of the x-gene] and become heroes.

Maybe it's the influx of the number of mutants in general/particularly extreme physical mutations that have emerged since the Morrison era that have highlighted this conundrum[of whether or not mutations should be chemically/biologically suppressed]. This deconstruction of the foundation of the franchise has obviously created fractures in the fan-base.

Before that, you had someone like Nightcrawler start out being attacked by a mob for his looks, and having to slowly but surely come to find peace in his appearance(that Bolton/Claremont backup issue with him and Logan in Salem Center is a classic), and revel in his capacity as a hero his powers(looks and all) bestow upon him. Such a metaphor is analogous to any number of situations where a real person's 'otherness' has to be claimed and emboldened for them to carry on in life, as opposed to rejecting their 'otherness' to fit in with the majority.

If you have mutants like Glob or Rockslide or Chamber reject their x-genes for the sake of ease and conformity, is that really a heroic trait? Chamber, for example, had a great storyline in Gen X(full of many odd mutants) where he went from abhorring his power to eventually becoming a huge powerhouse, capable of taking on Omega Red by submerging himself in a puddle(don't have to breath when you're a psionic plasmoid being...), or even moreso, when he dispelled D'Spayre in a huge energy burst, and reformed his own body from scratch(only to bust open his face again. Psychosomatic self-sabotage instead of just being 'his power'? Synch's face didn't blow off when he used his power...).

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Just taking a cure seems a cheap ploy. Kids need to learn the world is hard, it sucks a lot, and you have to find a way, even when it is not easy. The cure is a cop out(narratively).

Usually I agree with you on most topics but on this one i gotta disagree somewhat. I don't see it as a cop out for a mutant to want to live a "normal" life. Its easy for the normal looking mutants to reject the cure, they can get by fine and no one would suspect them of being mutants if they don't use their abilities in public. Glob, Eye Boy, Shark Girl don't have that luxury. To tell them they just have to man-up and deal with it, that it's a hard world and searching for a remedy is not heroic seems cruel in the extreme. In the real world it would be like assisted suicide. If some one wants to end their suffering but healthy people condemn them as week for wanting an easy way out. No one can dictate another's personal choice especially when they are not experiencing what the person is going through. A mutant who looks like a model (most of the a-list X-men) condemning a freaky looking mutant for wanting a cure would be wrong just like a healthy person condemning a sick suffering person who is seeking release would be wrong. I do agree not to give the cure to the government though, they definitely cannot be trusted to with it.

[Agent Z]

Usually I agree with you on most topics but on this one i gotta disagree somewhat. I don't see it as a cop out for a mutant to want to live a "normal" life. Its easy for the normal looking mutants to reject the cure, they can get by fine and no one would suspect them of being mutants if they don't use their abilities in public. Glob, Eye Boy, Shark Girl don't have that luxury. To tell them they just have to man-up and deal with it, that it's a hard world and searching for a remedy is not heroic seems cruel in the extreme. In the real world it would be like assisted suicide. If some one wants to end their suffering but healthy people condemn them as week for wanting an easy way out. No one can dictate another's personal choice especially when they are not experiencing what the person is going through. A mutant who looks like a model (most of the a-list X-men) condemning a freaky looking mutant for wanting a cure would be wrong just like a healthy person condemning a sick suffering person who is seeking release would be wrong. I do agree not to give the cure to the government though, they definitely cannot be trusted to with it.

Storm: There's nothing wrong with us.

Said the woman who can make the day cloudy or clear to the girl who can't touch anyone without killing them.

If you have mutants like Glob or Rockslide or Chamber reject their x-genes for the sake of ease and conformity, is that really a heroic trait? Chamber, for example, had a great storyline in Gen X(full of many odd mutants) where he went from abhorring his power to eventually becoming a huge powerhouse, capable of taking on Omega Red by submerging himself in a puddle(don't have to breath when you're a psionic plasmoid being...), or even moreso, when he dispelled D'Spayre in a huge energy burst, and reformed his own body from scratch(only to bust open his face again. Psychosomatic self-sabotage instead of just being 'his power'? Synch's face didn't blow off when he used his power...).



Just taking a cure seems a cheap ploy. Kids need to learn the world is hard, it sucks a lot, and you have to find a way, even when it is not easy. The cure is a cop out(narratively).

We are not talking about minorities bleaching their skin to pass the brown bag test. We’re talking about mutations that can prove lethal to people around you and even yourself and who make your life more of a problem than your typical disability. Yeah, it’s nice that Chamber found some way to use that mutation to his advantage but what if there were other options? Why shouldn’t there be other options? Why shouldn’t mutants be given other ways to benefit society besides joining a paramilitary group?
Yeah life isn’t easy. Does that mean we can’t make it better?

Let's say you have a global mandate to test every child for their intelligence, let's even pretend that there is a specific gene that correlates with high intelligence for the sake of this metaphor. So the UN takes samples of every child upon birth and tests for this intelligence gene. Are you saying that if a child has extreme intelligence that could be used to potentially threaten the world, the UN has the right to extricate that gene from their genome?

While that high intelligence could be used for destruction, it could also be used for creation, maybe for a new energy source, or to cure cancer and heart disease or whatever. Who is the UN to decide how that intelligence could be applied? Do you really think the UN wouldn't just round up some of them and try to bend them to their own purposes? (Weapon X/Plus, the Hellfire Club's Hellions, etc, etc.)

And yes, I'd rather a willful group of individuals make those choices rather than a state/corporation. It's one thing for people to choose to cooperate to solve a problem. It's quite another for a mandated, bureaucratic assembly that transcends true person-hood(states/corporations) to try to do the same.

Except there are mutations that can only be used for destruction and are no benefit to anybody at all. This isn’t all that different from vaccinating kids or testing them for potential diseases.
You wanna know fascism’s most powerful recruitment tool? The idea that the state and cooperations are out to get you and are always corrupt. Fascists love the idea of placing power and control in the hands of a small handful of individuals with no accountability or oversight. It’s how fascism works in the first place. The state is not an embodiment of fascism. It is opposed to it.

Fascism thrives when people seek easy, black and white solutions to complex problems.

[Big Joe]

It is a subject that is endlessly fascinating. If there were a cure then obviously some mutants would want it, but by the same token some definitely wouldn't. There would be conflict between those who want it and those who don't there would be good reasons pointed out on both sides, and stories like that can be fine but there isn't so much danger there. It is when the idea of a cure being mandatory for certain things, whether for being a terrorist or any other reason, that is when there are real problems. What about mission creep? Where is the line drawn? Who advocates the people who are to be "cured"? Would there be uprisings? There would obviously be human people who would campaign for the rights of some mutants not to be "cured". The story possibilities are endless really, but most of these kinds of things never seem to be explored.

I take the point made earlier that mutation and race, or sexuality, or religion, or gender or anything else are different, but certain parallels can be drawn if correctly written. I certainly don't think the cure has to be happening regularly, but it is always a decent premise although I would like to see a much fuller exploration of the consequences.

[yogaflame]

The state is not an embodiment of fascism. It’s opposed to it.

Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

I don't know how this definition has been lost on modern audiences; well, yes I do, but that's for another forum. Fascism is basically super statism(including capitalism/industrialism).

[Rosebunse]

Where is there a cure for depression? Or a treatment for autism, even?

Autism is actually a pretty good analogy for this. Some people love being autistic. Or they at least wouldn't change themselves. These people are often pretty high functioning and have some luck with passing for normal.

Some people can barely function at all and have no hope for a normal life.

So one group wouldn't want a cure and would feel victimized if they were forced to take it, while then you have those people for whom it seems cruel to deny them a cure.

[PrezValentine]

What is your position about a "cure" for being a mutant? This is a work of fiction, but if being a mutant is down to your DNA I don't think that a "cure" should exist anymore than there should be something that makes everyone's eyes the same color.

Gases, inhibitor collars, viruses, and a shot that makes you "normal" just shouldn't be so easy. I know it's all BS anyway to give another threat to mutants, but it seems like an easy cop out. At any given moment there might not be mutants...this happens about every 5 years and it's boring.

I think the cure works if it's established as something that can only be used on people who are legally adult and whose mutations don't make them unable to communicate or to have a fully functional mind. And even for that last one you'd have telepaths, but they are shady people in general.

I can see a lot of mutants wanting a cure, like Cyclops, whose mutation is only destruction. Or Glob Herman, whose mutation just makes him hideous and almost non-human. But it should be a voluntary choice, unless it actually threatens the well-being of others and other supression methods don't work. And the X-Men would need to exist as a counter to people who keep their mutations to commit crimes. I don't think the cure should be written as a threat to mutantkind for the 100th time, though. It kind of makes an issue that should be complex just black and white.

[Killerbee911]

Let's say you have a global mandate to test every child for their intelligence, let's even pretend that there is a specific gene that correlates with high intelligence for the sake of this metaphor. So the UN takes samples of every child upon birth and tests for this intelligence gene. Are you saying that if a child has extreme intelligence that could be used to potentially threaten the world

I am not playing the "like" game because it is stupid in this case. The exact example is why it is relevant a child being super intelligent is not a child being a nuclear bomb, It is not nuclear bomb attached person that doesn't have impulse control it is not attached to a person who malfunctions aka sickness. This is a simple case the risk of omega mutants outweigh the benfits. Even the best case scenario Omega mutant Franklin Richards had his powers inhibited by his father.

Mandatory testing of children it is not fascism we test kids for all kind of diseases and conditions so their parents can be aware of them. Once again "the cure" is bad doesn't hold up all mutants are human, The cure just makes them a different kind of human. We attach the racial or ethnic identity to mutant allegory but it is real not good example . What you are selling as bad is making mutants have "condition of being regular human" and worse case is world where everyone is normal human. The cure being "pure facist genocide evil" does not hold up. I am huge supporter of not forcing a cure on mutants but cure stories are so bad is so badly deveolped and done in stories that you are forced consider worse case.The choice between a Mattew Malloy or Legion situation and world with just humans because the force a cure on every mutant.Then option is better clear . The Handling of dangerous mutants is so batshit in Marvel that techically genocide of a "sub species" might be the better option. If the choice is free choice and baby omega kills tons of people or making everyone human.The moral solution is every one be human.

And more I have talked about this cure storyline yeah it can just go away and never come back. Especially if the defense lets the X-men handle it and this

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The woman had no clue her kid was mutant and there was no system in place have kids power nullified until she could probably control it. That is how stupid the X-man universe is that baby with different powers by accident could the tear world in two. And they have nothing in place and fans nerve to argue against common sense plan under guise of freedom.

[yogaflame]

Usually I agree with you on most topics but on this one i gotta disagree somewhat. I don't see it as a cop out for a mutant to want to live a "normal" life. Its easy for the normal looking mutants to reject the cure, they can get by fine and no one would suspect them of being mutants if they don't use their abilities in public. Glob, Eye Boy, Shark Girl don't have that luxury. To tell them they just have to man-up and deal with it, that it's a hard world and searching for a remedy is not heroic seems cruel in the extreme. In the real world it would be like assisted suicide. If some one wants to end their suffering but healthy people condemn them as week for wanting an easy way out. No one can dictate another's personal choice especially when they are not experiencing what the person is going through. A mutant who looks like a model (most of the a-list X-men) condemning a freaky looking mutant for wanting a cure would be wrong just like a healthy person condemning a sick suffering person who is seeking release would be wrong. I do agree not to give the cure to the government though, they definitely cannot be trusted to with it.

I am basically agreeing with WhiteQueenEmmaFrost's OP. The cure concept is lazy within the context of the X-Men narrative. Shark Girl and Glob and Eye Boy should embrace their abilities and find connections with the dozens/hundreds of other freaks they are going to school with. At the end of the day, the X-Men are supposed to be [super]heroes, and taking the cure would not be an expression of heroism(I'm looking at you Fox-Men Rogue from X3!! Bobby isn't even into you, and you threw away your gifts for him!). Look at Thing in the FF. Even though he lost the lottery compared to his teammates, and even though he's struggled to accept what happened to him, at the end of the day he's also saved babies from burning buildings that a normal man could never have survived, and he's grown stronger inside as a result.

To go further, why do we even read these stories or care about these characters if not to mull over the relevance of this fictional universe to our own lives? Now I think the whole point of this thread is to suss out the connections between the X-Men cure and how that would relate to real world situations.

In the real world there are concerted efforts to 'normalize' individuals, through subtle and extreme methods. This is done through religious and cultural indoctrination, through media, through medications/chemicals, through physical intimidation and violence, to name but a few.

The idea of elective/assisted suicide is quite a leap from this cure concept. While I would personally hold that everyone has a right to decide their own fate, I do find it reprehensible to advocate suicide, or any self-destructive tendency for that matter, through media, especially media that is largely targeted towards children and teenagers. (And while I am basically an anarchist, I would note that in most countries/states, assisted suicide is illegal, and of even more relevance, considered taboo by most cultures*though certainly not all)

There really isn't a real world analogue for someone who has a black hole for hands, or can casually destroy cities with stray nightmares(assuming siddhis are basically off the table). The x-gene cure, then, has to be examined through the lens of something more analogous to skin bleaching or actually something more like CRISPR and gene editing, which do exist, and could be desired by actual people wanting to fit in with the masses, or otherwise change their physical manifestation to curry social graces(plastic surgery is pretty close, but doesn't quite penetrate to the extent of gene modification, and certainly isn't as easy as taking a pill or being sprayed by a gas/injected with a serum).

In any case, there certainly is room for interpretation, and I am glad that we can at least agree that it's not a good idea for the government to be mandating people's genomes.

[Agent Z]

(I'm looking at you Fox-Men Rogue from X3!! Bobby isn't even into you, and you threw away your gifts for him!). .

Bobby: This isn't what I wanted.

Rogue: I know. It's what I wanted.

And yes he was into her.

[Mutant X]

X-men has always used analogies for real-world issues.

This new cure plot was clearly inspired by the discussions of a "gay cure."

Like homosexuality, mutation is a genetic condition. So what if some scientist creates a mechanism to modify the genetic predisposition to be gay or not? Is it ethical or moral?

Should parents have the right to choose? Or even the individual? What would be the consequences for the gay community?

It's a good plot, but I'm not sure if it will have the necessary development.