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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    The blue and purple Shazams? You do realise they're not called Batson, right?

    My bad. I forgot.
    Currently Reading:Aquaman, Doomsday Clock, Freedom Fighters, Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I love your post. It's very insightful, creative, and polite. Now! My rebuttal on this point.

    It's true that the Titans are really damn big right now in larger media (I'd even include YJ's success there, since they're are so similar). However, outside of one or two exceptions, larger media success doesn't trickle down to comics. So the comics are not benefiting from that success, and in the case of TTGO! and its predecessor, that's a stretch of years. So it really doesnt matter if the Titans are "Avengers" popular with the general audience because their comic isn't seeing any of the love, and its the comics we're discussing.

    I totally agree that they deserve respect, but this *is* respect. It's respecting the IP enough to know when to make it sit down, instead of running it to death (which is what's happening now).

    There is brand recognition and expectation, but the Titans no longer have a high degree of brand trust, which renders the rest largely moot. The IP has been in decline (in print) for thirty years. It's a mid-level seller when it's not fighting off cancellation, which shows that although fans expect the Titans to be on the shelf, they're not buying it. That also means there's no financial incentive to keep the title going; lots of IP's can be mid-level sellers, and if the Titans weather the monthly ebb and flow of the market slightly better than most, they're far from profitable enough to not be replaced in the schedule. There's no monetary reason for the book to exist, and the only reason to keep it going is to meet the brand expectations of your audience, who're busy buying other products. Brand expectation matters a lot, but the IP has also gotten a bad reputation and is seen by many as toxic (or on its way), and that'll do far more damage than low sales. Not seeing publication at all is actually better than the alternative of the diminishing returns DC has been getting. The longer the book stays on the shelf but doesn't measure up, the deeper the hole the IP digs for itself. If they're not being published, they're not digging deeper. No one will forget they exist, and nostalgia will only increase demand for their return. And waiting a year or two for the stink to wear off gives you time to find the right creator with the right pitch and status quo to (hopefully) make the Titans' inevitable return worthy of the IP's history.

    We've seen this done to any number of properties over the years. The FF just returned after a break, and their absence definitely generated more noise and hype than their book had generated in ages, to the benefit of the IP today. Hawkman was so toxic DC wouldn't even let Morrison use him in JLA, but after a few years Johns was able to bring him back and his series held out for what, 75-100 issues? Pretty good for a IP fans wouldn't touch just a few years before. Fans who weren't buying the last JSA series (either the New52 version or the pre-52 one) are missing the team now and promising to check it out if DC will return them. Putting a product on the shelf temporarily is a often used strategy when the product is struggling but still has pedigree. Seriously, my suggestion isn't all that left field. It's tried and true. Doesn't always work of course, nothing does, but it works often enough.

    Sometimes, absence really does make the heart grow fonder.



    I mean, DC is never going to let the Titans get one over on the League but I'm interested in the idea and I totally support anything that starts letting the Titans be taken seriously, as peers to their former mentors (peers, we might be able to get. Superior isnt gonna happen). What's the divide you would use to separate them and how would you spin them to make them stand out? I considered something sorta like what you're suggesting but couldn't find a throughline that worked and made them viable, equal, and unique.
    The Titans won't be taken seriously until DC makes an effort to stabilize the franchise and that will take effort and vision, something which I doubt that current DC has. A lot of people at DC think that 'stable' means rehashing old storylines. For the franchise to have sustainability going forward, retool the characters who need it and go out of your way to avoid old storylines and killing off characters for shock value.

    I agree that DC won't let the Titans get one over on the JL, but I'm not sure if a rivalry is necessary. Sooner or later some hack will turn the friendly rivalry into a hostile one and make everyone involved look bad(see the Avengers vs X Men event that Marvel did a few years ago).

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Disappearing from the public eye is the worst possible thing you can do to increase the prominence of a brand. I don't get how anyone can think a brand disappearing for years can help it.
    The other media appearances keep the brand from vanishing from the public eye. Running the comics into the ground with shitty stories over and over again is worse. Better to be in limbo that a shitty comic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    This disappearance and reunion you're talking about already happened, too. Lest we forget how they cashed in on nostalgia only to prevent the writer from writing literally any story he wanted to.
    Yeah, so don't cash in on the nostalgia until editorial gets over itself and has a good writer who can deliver on it, and not prevent them from telling stories. Though a more talented writer than Abnett could have made some lemonade out of those lemons, some of the blandness and crappiness on that title was down to him.

    This is a property that ran out of gas as soon as Perez left. The dip in quality happened almost immediately, and they've never been that relevant again. And this has been a problem since before DiDio's been in charge. Like Ascended said, these reunions are pretty much what are needed, but they also never work. There is an innate problem with the property that has been compounded by crappy decisions through the years.

  4. #64
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    One of the problems with Titans is that too many people try to give (or force) them into a direction. Do you need a direction or mission statement to hang out with your friends? Of course not.

    That's what Titans is, a group of friends who happen to be Superheroes.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by titanfan View Post
    One of the problems with Titans is that too many people try to give (or force) them into a direction. Do you need a direction or mission statement to hang out with your friends? Of course not.

    That's what Titans is, a group of friends who happen to be Superheroes.
    The lack of direction hasn't really helped them. The last time they were relevant as a group in the comics was when they had a direction: the young sidekicks coming together independently with other young heroes their age and growing up. They are grown adults and cannot have that mission statement anymore. Just rolling along listlessly with the same bland soap opera dynamics isn't helping them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    They literally did not have the Titans on the shelf for 6 years. What bigger break do you want?
    That would have been a good amount of time, but they screwed it up and now the IP has been dug into a bigger hole. So now unfortunately, it'd be best to leave it on the shelf until they are ready to not half ass it again. Because every half assed attempt makes it worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Superior certainly could happen. Happened once already.
    They were never actually superior in-universe even when they were at their peak. At best they were presented as being equals and capable of standing on their own two feet away from their mentors. As a group, Wally as an individual surpassed Barry.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 02-04-2019 at 02:59 PM.

  6. #66
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    I quite like the idea of having the Titans as the more "approachable" team, while the League are essentially gods among men.
    Titans could be the team the population would actually contact for help, while the League would choose their on missions based on threat level.
    Yeah, this. The League already feels untouchable in a way - Wonder Woman, Superman, and even Batman? Hello? Then the other core members, of course - and the Titans have always been more down to earth. Do something with that.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  7. #67
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Yeah, this. The League already feels untouchable in a way - Wonder Woman, Superman, and even Batman? Hello? Then the other core members, of course - and the Titans have always been more down to earth. Do something with that.
    For the last couple days I’ve been playing around with the idea of the Titans being the first responders of the DCU hero community. While the JL is dealing with the massive world ending events every other Tuesday, the titans would be the boots on the ground directly interacting with the people.

    It’s not about the titans or it’s members being worth less than the league, just that they are doing things that the league really can’t.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The lack of direction hasn't really helped them. The last time they were relevant as a group in the comics was when they had a direction: the young sidekicks coming together independently with other young heroes their age and growing up. They are grown adults and cannot have that mission statement anymore. Just rolling along listlessly with the same bland soap opera dynamics isn't helping them.



    That would have been a good amount of time, but they screwed it up and now the IP has been dug into a bigger hole. So now unfortunately, it'd be best to leave it on the shelf until they are ready to not half ass it again. Because every half assed attempt makes it worse.



    They were never actually superior in-universe even when they were at their peak. At best they were presented as being equals and capable of standing on their own two feet away from their mentors. As a group, Wally as an individual surpassed Barry.
    Wally is the once I talked about. Dick could also easily surpass Bruce. It's not something that's hard to picture happening. These people have been trained as superheroes since they were children. Only Wonder Woman can say the same of the JL. They should obviously pass up these people who started later in life.

  9. #69
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    Since the Justice League book is anyway mostly about big cosmic crisis, I think there is plenty of room for the Titans to go up against other big villains (on the level the JSA or other incarnations of the JL used to handle).

    They just need to come up with some exciting new stories, instead of repeating the same old stuff again and again, especially since a lot of their old villains are just not really suited for getting reused.

  10. #70
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Outsiders/Titans Pitch

    Martian Manhunter leads a group of metahumans in a world that increasingly "hates and sometimes fears" them their mission is stop bad metahumans and train and protect young metahumans

    The Team

    Cyborg
    Starfire
    Raven
    Beast Boy
    Ms Martian
    Donna Troy

    Rules/General thoughts


    - No side kicks(with couple exceptions) that is clear difference between Titans and Justice League. Teen Titans would be a book about young member of Titans/Outsiders just trying live as teens with superpowers, Where Young Justice would be sidekicks and future of the Justice League. Yes I know historically Nightwing and others has been on the Titans but give Titans a clear feel you need to move away from that direction

    -The exceptions Ms Martians and Donna Troy who are suppose to represent Aliens and Gods,Trying to get every type of meta in the main group to showcase

    - Outsiders/Titans is going to be DC's "X-men" that is how you clearly find a place for the books where Justice League stuff is going to dominate. X-men is good on a more personal level how people with superpowers would live where Justice League comes off as near Gods at times.

    -Now DC is a clearly a world with metahumans who are big heroes well liked so the "Fear" in Hate and Fear does not have to be used often but hate of metahumans is ripe for dc books and hate is irrational. DC is a uniquely equip to handle superpowers discussion because because born metas and metas from accidents other reason are consider the same thing.

    - The biggest purpose of Outsiders to showcase characters like Omen, Bumblebee, Guardian, Terra, Ravager, Bunker,Solstice, Lagoon Boy, Hotspot, Djinn, Crush. Characters who don't quite have a home anyway where else but get thrown away when the teen /young adult books reset.

    - Outsiders would be the name of the franchise and it is great name for a group of heroes who don't quite fit in and "Titans" would be name of individual team.

    -Martian Manhunter was kind of joke choice because he is closest thing Professor X i could have think about,He could work but some else or creating new character could work

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Wally is the once I talked about. Dick could also easily surpass Bruce. It's not something that's hard to picture happening. These people have been trained as superheroes since they were children. Only Wonder Woman can say the same of the JL. They should obviously pass up these people who started later in life.
    Not so. Clark's been a superhero since he was a teenager in most continuities, he definitely was at the time of the original NTT stories (see the entire Legion of Superheros mythos at that point). Bruce was training for his mission as soon as his parents died, and at one point he was the first Robin. I'm less certain on J'onn and Arthur, but Diana is definitely not the only one who has been training since childhood.

    Dick doesn't need to cleanly surpass Bruce. The whole point of his arc in NTT was angsting about not being as driven as Bruce or being as good of a detective, and growing into his own man who has his own niche to get over it. He was a better leader than Bruce at that time, which set him apart and why the "Batman as leader of the JL" nonsense we get in a lot of modern takes screws over Dick, as well as other JL members. So it's possible to surpass them in some areas, not necessary to surpass them in all. Make them peers. Why is necessary for all of them to surpass their mentors just because Wally did it?

  12. #72
    all cops are bastards Elmo's Avatar
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    If DC simply didn't have a Justice League book for 2 publication years but had all the characters appearing in other books and a solid creative team for a Titans book with the right amount of push, Titans would be pretty successful. The Titans are obsolete when a lot of them are already analogues of League characters and the book itself is just an offshoot of the League, because even when it isn't that DC doesn't do enough to distinguish it from other team books
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Make them peers. Why is necessary for all of them to surpass their mentors just because Wally did it?
    I agree with this. It's not necessary to have them surpass their mentors. How about just presenting them as peers at the very least? I think one thing this team struggles with is that for the most part, characterization has stalled with respect to them being between teen heroes and stepping out of their mentor's shadows, with of course, exception of Nightwing and Wally. They seem to be "stuck" in this inbetween state. Fighting crime since teens, you'd think they'd earn the right to be peers with the mentors but, they are often not presented in this way. Abnet presented them as operating at the League's approval. The league disbanded them when they felt the team was out of control and Donna was put under house arrest. This did little to present that these are young, capable adults and really felt like they were taking a step backwards and being treated as teenagers. Imagine being grounded by your parents in your 20's. Seriously? No.

    I am nostalgic about the team but, that doesn't mean I don't want these characters to move forward. They need direction and decent villains. I actually like the idea of being a JL strike force or DCU first responders for global level threats. Let the League take care of universe-level, let the Titans deal with global. Treat them like 20 something heroes and peers, not like super-powered teenagers that need parental supervision.

  14. #74
    Spectacular Member wvchemteach's Avatar
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    As things are now currently, DC has separated Wildstorm for the most part away from DC proper with Rebirth, but the idea I have would require reintegrating the two somewhat.
    The idea I have is for either the U.N. found a Stormwatch team or the U.S. Government found a WildC.A.T.S. team. One or the other as their answer to the Justice League.

    Have traditional members of whichever team being used involved and have the team operating in the niche that Justice League of America was operating on in New 52 up until Forever Evil.

    As a result of this initiative, the government/governments are screening for and recruiting (often against their will) young meta-humans to fuel these government sponsored team.

    The Justice League is appalled and horrified by what is happening, but due to their public status is unable to act against the government actions.

    Enter the Titans, a covert unsanctioned team that is actively thwarting the government in their recruiting actions

    The members of the team can't be well known members of the Justice League so instead the team consists of characters not as well known: Nightwing, Donna Troy, Garth, Raven, Natasha Irons, Static, and Lillith be the primary team, but have other recurring characters pop up like Starfire, Beast Boy, Cyborg, Arsenal, Wally West, etc to assist on missions from time to time.
    What I Read: Nightwing, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Justice League, Batman, Detective Comics, Batgirl, , The Flash, Action Comics, Superman, and Suicide Squad

    What I Miss: Justice League and Justice League Unlimited TV Series, Wolverine and the X-Men TV Series and the Marvel Comics that got me into reading comics to begin with.

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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Roy isn't a recovering addict, he's been clean for years. That past is important but regressing him like that is awful.
    Being clean for years is the very definition of a recovering addict

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