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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Batman fighting against the Joker is one thing. Batman fighting against the Joker while repeating the same story beats is something else entirely. Raven being possessed became so definitive of the character it was practically a running gag and basically meant that she couldnÂ’t be anything else. And each time they repeated it, it was worse than the last.
    You realize I can answer you just like that, Batman always fighting Joker is a running gag and basically meant that he couldn’t be anything else, it became boring since quite a while now.
    Raven going evil is part of her character, so? It can be done in many different ways with many different outcomes and with new creative takes on that, I don't see any problem with that if the story is good and beliveable

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, I am not saying the attempts to re-capture the NTT magic was successful. I am just saying it was done and has been done repeatedly.
    And what I am saying is that it was never done seriously and for the long run, and the team was neevr allowed the status of the original NTT. Is not just bring in the same members or some similar replacements, its about let them be what they were back then, gave them back the same status

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Starfire has never beaten Wonder Woman. Raven being a universe destroyer is more tell than show. Trigon is a Satan expy in a universe full of Satan expies and isnÂ’t even the most powerful one there.
    Johns had the League showing up to boss the Titans around and this included Starfire, Cyborg, Beast Boy and Raven on the team.
    Starfire had KO-ed WW right in their first meeting. I can dig if you wish for some universe like feats for Raven too, beside those statements (something with her empathic and souls control powers). I just pointed those out to see that isn't any PIS in this case.
    Trigon is the most powerful there and his status is really high overall. Also iirc Johns League did come to boss the TT but Raven wasn't there and Starfire just told them to hit the road (she also had a fight with WW). And she prevailed in her wishes at the end, unlike the Fab five who caved right away to the JL demands

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The sidekicks were doing their own thing and not taking orders from their mentors long before the NTT characters were conceived. Teen heroes becoming independent wasnÂ’t some new idea that came from the NTT characters. There is nothing about the NTT line up that is inherently more independent than the Fab Five.
    Their whole history tells us different

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I feel like a lot of comic book fans donÂ’t know what PIS actually means. Wally getting beaten by one of TrigonÂ’s sons is more PIS than him being able to beat Trigon and Garth has feats like holding his own against the Spectre and sending Atlantis to the past. The only reason you think they look silly is because they werenÂ’t like that from the beginning which is a nonsensical argument given how many comic book characters start out as weaker than their current incarnations. By your logic, taking down the League isnÂ’t an impressive feat given that Green Lantern used to have a weakness to the color yellow, Wonder Woman could be beaten by binding her hands once upon a time and Superman was initially a really strong guy who could jump really high.
    It doesn't make much sense, what you say, or I don't get it right. Wally was beaten by Trigon son, by Raven, he couldn't do anything to Trigon himself (not alone, anyway, Raven was doing the heavy lifting and she needed others help too). To come now and say he can just punch hard Trigon and beat him like that is ridiculous and PIS, yes. Raven taking down the JL didn't had anything with color yellow, tying up WW or Superman physical prowess, it was related with her magic or mystical powers which she always had and won't be unrealistic to do that to the JL in any story arcs over time, nothing should be significantly different today.

    Garth magic growing over time is cool, I didn't followed the character so I can't say much yet I never heard of him as closing in to Fate or Zatanna (or Raven) magic power levels. Which he anyway need to surpass to have a shot vs someone like Trigon, so if that was some outlier and such it will still look out of place for him to be able to do that.

    To end this since it become a bit repetitve

    This is the original NTT and Raven or Starfire dealing with the Justice League

    https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...7fd9ad50f0be68

    https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...lts+hurt+1.jpg

    https://i.redd.it/hzq1dqwjh4e11.jpg

    https://static.comicvine.com/uploads...er+woman+2.jpg

    and here are the Titans with the Fab five core dealing with the JL

    http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...spoilers-3.jpg

    http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-10.jpg
    Last edited by darud; 02-10-2019 at 07:01 AM.

  2. #182
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    Aquaman is by far, the more recognizable brand name so no. Also, I think that non comic book readers who enjoyed the Aquaman film don't really care about Aquaman's civilian Identity to a large degree; they simply like the moniker. Passing down the Aqua-torch from Arthur to Garth on the silver screen eventually at some point would probably be less of a challenge than doing it on the page. Casual audiences would probably think that the aforementioned is akin to a character such as Batman or James Bond changing actors.
    I'm not so sure about that. They probably wouldn't be as hesitant to embrace a new character taking the title as we would, but nobody is invested in Arthur Curry or the actor playing him currently? I find that hard to believe.

    When Batman and James Bond change actors, it's still the same character. This would be a new character, one who can exist in tandem without replacing the lead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Aquaman is still the weakest concept out of the Big 7 and the easiest person to replace with no real backlash. The movie hasn't changed anything in that area Mera or Kaldur can easily slide as "Aquaman", Garth also has the toolkit to be more interesting Aquaman. It is a design thing and every character in his family of characters are designed better to make up for the flaws that Aquaman has inherently. But given how DC loves to always bring back the original regardless if it is the right move making these character their own entity are better things so It is better that Garth be Tempest than Aquaman because some nostalgic writer hey let's bring Arthur because that was my Aquaman.
    Nah, I'd say J'onn or Cyborg (whichever one it is) are easily the weakest, because they have absolutely nothing going on. J'onn's been around since the 50s and doesn't have a lore built around him that even touches Wonder Woman, Aquaman, the Flash or GL. The true seventh pillar is probably Captain Marvel/Shazam. Of the six remaining, Arthur may be the weakest, but that's down to receiving the least amount of attention and being considered a joke by pop culture at large, not any inherent weakness in the concept. The movie has helped turn that around, and the GL is probably the weakest now sine it has to recover from the stigma of the shitty Ryan Reynolds outing.

    As for your second point, yeah we've seen it happen with Wally. If it happened to Wally (and it didn't have to be as bad as it did, but alas it panned out that way), Garth won't stand a chance. We all know how it would eventually go, so it's best to avoid it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    I didn’t realize Aquaman had such a stong family, LoL.
    Mera really is doing the heavy lifting all by herself lol.
    We COULD have a great, strong Aqua family. Lot's of work needs to be done though. None of them save Mera are as strong as he is now.

  3. #183
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. They probably wouldn't be as hesitant to embrace a new character taking the title as we would, but nobody is invested in Arthur Curry or the actor playing him currently? I find that hard to believe.

    When Batman and James Bond change actors, it's still the same character. This would be a new character, one who can exist in tandem without replacing the lead.





    .
    I'm not saying that DC should immediately replace Arthur with Garth un the films. I would reccomend they do it, 3 movies in, or 4 movies in. Also as for what you said about the different iterations of James Bond and Batman being the same character -- that's not entirely true. Adam West is not the same as Michael Keaton, Michael Keaton is not the same as Christian Bale, and Christian Bale is not the same as Ben Affleck. Same goes for Bond. Obviously Pierce Brosnan's Bond is not the same character as Daniel Craig's Bond.

  4. #184
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    I'm not saying that DC should immediately replace Arthur with Garth un the films. I would reccomend they do it, 3 movies in, or 4 movies in. Also as for what you said about the different iterations of James Bond and Batman being the same character -- that's not entirely true. Adam West is not the same as Michael Keaton, Michael Keaton is not the same as Christian Bale, and Christian Bale is not the same as Ben Affleck. Same goes for Bond. Obviously Pierce Brosnan's Bond is not the same character as Daniel Craig's Bond.
    If the movies built up Garth anyway, couldn't they just spin him off into a Tempest movie? Then they would have two brand's instead of one.

    Those are all literally Bruce Wayne, just different takes on him. That's not the same as Garth being different than Arthur Curry.

  5. #185
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    This thread is tying itself in knots between why the Titans are or are not League Level. Most of those arguments revolving around story originality and in-story capability depictions.

    IMO, it's all moot. The Titans (with the possible exception of Dick Grayson), do not have the merchandising and brand power of their predecessors. As long as that's the case, The Titans aren't being canonically elevated to League Level.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    This thread is tying itself in knots between why the Titans are or are not League Level. Most of those arguments revolving around story originality and in-story capability depictions.

    IMO, it's all moot. The Titans (with the possible exception of Dick Grayson), do not have the merchandising and brand power of their predecessors. As long as that's the case, The Titans aren't being canonically elevated to League Level.
    Right now, between Teen Titans Go, Young Justice and Titans 2018, they've got better brand power than the Justice League.

  7. #187

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    I'd take a page from Peter David's work on X-factor and give Titans an external purpose to stay together. X-factor was a private detective agency, a government task force and a company sponsored team so I'd give Titans something similar to rally around.

    For example, Spyral wants their superhero team so they start recruiting former teen titans. That would have been perfect for the post-Titans Hunt era. Other options include Mr.Jupiter hires them or Roy starts a private security firm.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    I'd take a page from Peter David's work on X-factor and give Titans an external purpose to stay together. X-factor was a private detective agency, a government task force and a company sponsored team so I'd give Titans something similar to rally around.

    For example, Spyral wants their superhero team so they start recruiting former teen titans. That would have been perfect for the post-Titans Hunt era. Other options include Mr.Jupiter hires them or Roy starts a private security firm.
    I like this idea. Maybe even have Cyborg recruit some members for a secret missions that the JL won't do for some reason.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Right now, between Teen Titans Go, Young Justice and Titans 2018, they've got better brand power than the Justice League.
    When WB gives them a major feature (or the equivalent in post-cinema distribution world), I'll buy your argument. Until then, $ of investment is a better measure than how many low-expense, limited channel shows are out there. That's before we even talk about total merchandising $.

  10. #190
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    When WB gives them a major feature (or the equivalent in post-cinema distribution world), I'll buy your argument. Until then, $ of investment is a better measure than how many low-expense, limited channel shows are out there. That's before we even talk about total merchandising $.
    They have: the TV show. In this day and age TV and streaming can be argued to be more popular than film, and Titans was massively popular, even leading DCUniverse.

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  11. #191
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    When WB gives them a major feature (or the equivalent in post-cinema distribution world), I'll buy your argument. Until then, $ of investment is a better measure than how many low-expense, limited channel shows are out there. That's before we even talk about total merchandising $.
    TTG, even though I'm not a fan, makes up as much as 60% of Cartoon Network's weekly programming.
    Young Justice was literally brought back after being canceled through dedicated and growing fan support. Not a reboot or sequel, but the series itself.
    And Titans is clearly running off from the character list from the old animated series (Cyborg is even with the Doom Patrol now, and both series take place on the same Earth).

    Justice League? The only time its brought up is to ridicule the film adaptation. Prior, it may have been for the old cartoon, but not as much anymore.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    They have: the TV show. In this day and age TV and streaming can be argued to be more popular than film, and Titans was massively popular, even leading DCUniverse.
    Yeah, that's cute. WB laid down $300 Million for JL, (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just...29?wprov=sfla1). Titans budget is much harder to identify. Until you can show it's comparable, or demonstrate equivalent merchandising incomes, your contention is basically "I see them more often and like them better." Which is not the same thing as
    In this day and age TV and streaming can be argued to be more popular than film, and Titans was massively popular, even leading DCUniverse
    ...that's before we talk about eyeballs involved, or (the topic you ignored) merchandising income.

    Niche streaming wiil supplant Cinema as measure of importance. Probably pretty soon. But we're not quite there yet.

  13. #193
    hate cant reach you here Harpsikord's Avatar
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    Justice League also massively underperformed critically and commercially to the point that the majority of films attached to it have been canceled. Is that really the hill you want to die on?

    "I'll always love you, Jean Grey." "I'll always love you too, Scott Summers." - Scott Summers and Jean Grey

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    TTG, even though I'm not a fan, makes up as much as 60% of Cartoon Network's weekly programming.
    Young Justice was literally brought back after being canceled through dedicated and growing fan support. Not a reboot or sequel, but the series itself.
    And Titans is clearly running off from the character list from the old animated series (Cyborg is even with the Doom Patrol now, and both series take place on the same Earth).

    Justice League? The only time its brought up is to ridicule the film adaptation. Prior, it may have been for the old cartoon, but not as much anymore.
    Comparing TV and Major Feature Film, on investment, or revenue, or brand awareness is comparing Apples and Gravel.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harpsikord View Post
    Justice League also massively underperformed critically and commercially to the point that the majority of films attached to it have been canceled. Is that really the hill you want to die on?
    "...the hill you want to die on?" That's taking this a bit seriously.

    Your argument conflates revenue, profit, brand awareness, and brand equity across distribution channels. And it still doesn't prove the Titans have surpassed DC's most valuable brands.

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