Pitch a Direction: Titans

[byrd156]

I think its been largely proven that this just doesn't fly.

Those other teams do have a purpose; the League are the first and last line of defense; the greatest, most capable heroes (well, usually) dealing with threats no single hero could handle solo. They're SEAL team 6 for superheroes. The X-Men are a school teaching young superhumans how to handle their powers, not to mention the "civil rights" topics and themes. The Outsiders are the covert group doing the dirty work other heroes can't be seen doing. They all have a reason for being together.

DC has tried to say that the Titans are a team just because they're a team. Friendship is magic, and all that. And it does not sell. It does not work. It has not worked for thirty years. So yeah, maybe the Titans *should* just be a group of highly capable, powerful, confident heroes working together to save lives. Maybe that *should* be enough. But history proves it's not enough and nostalgia doesn't change that. Whatever the Titans are, it seems clear they need a mission statement beyond "we like each other!" And more to the point, that mission statement has to be put into practice and more than just lip service. DC has tried, in the past, to say the Titans are a training ground for young heroes. That's cool, that works. But not when your roster consists of adult, experienced heroes with only two young, inexperienced ones, like Devin Grayson tried to pull.

Ultimately you're right about editorial. A good editor, with a decent creative team, probably could pull it off and make the Titans work as a team that's together simply for the sake of it. I mean, at least in theory the right people behind the scenes could make any premise work. But that doesn't seem to happen. And even if a specific talent came along who did pull it off, the title then rests squarely on that talent and as soon as they leave, things go south again. Johns is a good example here. He did the whole "training ground" thing too, only with a few more "students" and it was the last time the Titans were really worth anything. But once he left? The premise started to come apart under the weight of lesser talent.

Perhaps it would work if DC allowed the Titans to grow and evolve. Perhaps they could remain a team simply for the sake of it if they were all bigger and badder than DC currently lets them be. Perhaps if they moved beyond the NTT phase in life and started dealing with bigger, badder League level problems, the Titans being a team simply because the world needs them to be would fly. But it appears that, as long as the characters aren't allowed to move beyond where Wolfman left them, their friendship just isn't enough.

Well it does sell even with bad talent on the book. I feel that it has a similar issue with Nightwing in recent years. The book sells regardless of quality and the blame is then shifted to the characters/team/premise when the creative team is pretty bad and there is little to no marketing.

[Dred]

Everything you're saying applies to the entire Titans IP. Which helps prove how damaged it is. And Wally will still bring more sales and attention than all the rest of them together except Dick.

Dont get me wrong, Im not in favor of a reunion, whether Wally gets and invite or not. Like Ive been saying, those dont work and they've become toxic. But if you do one, it'll benefit the book to include him.

And Abnett is the reason Wally (or anyone else) didnt survive Abnett.

I don't think I can blame Abnett when they gave him a comic with a hook, and told him he could not write the hook, then told him he could not write any of the other stories he wanted to write.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think I can blame Abnett when they gave him a comic with a hook, and told him he could not write the hook, then told him he could not write any of the other stories he wanted to write.

Did they tell him to write Donna as an alcoholic and make the JL the Titans' babysitters?
The opinion of his writing for Dick is also not that high around these parts. On the other hand, Seeley got stuck with editorial edicts he wasn't crazy about for Nightwing and even though he half assed the stuff he didn't want, he still wrote Dick considerably better than Abnett. Maybe Abnett is just not a good fit for these characters and franchise, in addition to having his hands tied by editorial?

[Harpsikord]

Did they tell him to write Donna as an alcoholic

No, but this probably led to Donna becoming the most Donna that she's been since she came back.

and make the JL the Titans' babysitters?

Yes they did.

[SiegePerilous02]

No, but this probably led to Donna becoming the most Donna that she's been since she came back.

Really? In what sense?
Is she back to being an adopted Amazon instead of whatever the hell they were going for before? The non-entity without a defined personality?

Yes they did.

Yikes
Though honestly, a better writer (or perhaps more fairly, a more suitable writer) might have been able to turn those lemons into lemonade better than he did. Not by much, but still.

[Ascended]

Well it does sell even with bad talent on the book. I feel that it has a similar issue with Nightwing in recent years. The book sells regardless of quality and the blame is then shifted to the characters/team/premise when the creative team is pretty bad and there is little to no marketing.

Titans is a mid-level seller when it's on, but its usually got a short lifespan. I mean, didn't it just get cancelled again? It is a somewhat similar situation with Nightwing though, where DC's mismanagement and incompetence does most of the damage (isnt that everything?), but with Dick you can trace that back to one particular manager and perhaps his friends, while with the Titans the IP has been twisted up into a huge mess for thirty years. The Titans are the extreme example of what could happen to Nightwing, if Nightwing suffered for thirty years what he's been suffering for the last few. Dick could walk away from his troubles with a simple shift in editorial edict and a quasi-decent writer. The Titans have some deep, complex problems they'd have to overcome that reaches beyond creative teams and editors and gets into what the franchise is supposed to be, what it's supposed to say, etc. It reaches the "business" end of the comic spectrum, and as we've seen over the years, good creators or bad, the end result usually comes out about the same because of these issues.

I don't think I can blame Abnett when they gave him a comic with a hook, and told him he could not write the hook, then told him he could not write any of the other stories he wanted to write.

Oh its him and the editors and the whole chain of creative command, but its easier to just type "Abnett."

And Im not hating on the guy either, I'm a fan of his work most of the time (that Nova series! I still get goosebumps). It just seems that the Titans were either not the book for him, or he was given such a dog's dinner to work with he couldn't overcome it, like Seeley was able to with Grayson.

[Harpsikord]

Really? In what sense?
Is she back to being an adopted Amazon instead of whatever the hell they were going for before? The non-entity without a defined personality?

The origin story hasn't been fixed yet, but honestly that's something I can forgive as long as Donna sounds like herself - which she has lately. The alcoholism plot led into her becoming the leader of the Titans which led into her sounding the most like Donna that she has since Flashpoint. She's the heart of the team, the backbone, and she just feels the way that Donna Troy should. It's not perfect, mainly due to the origin, but I'm comfortable saying that Abnett put her back the way that she should be. It's probably the primary lasting effect of his runs.

Yikes
Though honestly, a better writer might have been able to turn those lemons into lemonade better than he did. Not by much, but still.

I get the idea that it was his idea to have them work WITH the League but not have them basically be their babysitters. He was probably forced to replace Omen with Miss Martian, too.

[warzon]

TITANS

Troia
Frances Kane
Witchfire
Nightwing=leader
Flash=Wally
Green Lantern=kyle
Thunder=Gan
Lightning=Tavis

New Titans

Raven
Starfire
Terra
Mary Marvel
Cyborg=leader
Beast Boy
Jericho
Firestorm=Jason

TITANS L.A.

Bumblebee=leader
Omen
Tula
Golden Eagle
Guardian
Red Star

TEEN TITANS

Wonder Girl
Empress
Bombshell
Speedy
Red Robin
Superboy
Aqualad
Kid Flash
Zatara

[Badou]

Yes they did.

Well that was only true for Abnett's second run after No Justice. It was Abnett's idea to have the JL and Batman come in and tell Dick to roll over and disband his team because he felt they weren't capable of dealing with Donna. Then have them take Donna away and ground her in the JL watchtower. Then it was Abnett's continued idea to have Dick talk about how he failed with the first team all through his second run on the Titans book. You can't blame that stuff on editorial. That was Abnett's own story. Things like him folding the Titans into the JL because of how Snyder wanted all the heroes to be under the JL and run out of the Hall of Justice isn't on him, but him having the daddy JL come in and ground the Titans in his first run is all on him.

The origin story hasn't been fixed yet, but honestly that's something I can forgive as long as Donna sounds like herself - which she has lately. The alcoholism plot led into her becoming the leader of the Titans which led into her sounding the most like Donna that she has since Flashpoint. She's the heart of the team, the backbone, and she just feels the way that Donna Troy should. It's not perfect, mainly due to the origin, but I'm comfortable saying that Abnett put her back the way that she should be. It's probably the primary lasting effect of his runs.

I have to disagree. I guess we have a fundamental difference in how Donna is supposed to be. Even her being the leader of the team I never got a sense she was the warm or motherly figure of the team she was before. Felt like all she mostly did was complain. It feels very much like Abnett writes her as a generic Amazon warrior and I don't think he ever had a good feel for her character. She still feels like a completely different character to her pre flashpoint self. Maybe that is because of her awful New 52 origin where she is a generic warrior type and Abnett is just going off that, but I don't know.

[Harpsikord]

Well that was only true for Abnett's second run after No Justice. It was Abnett's idea to have the JL and Batman come in and tell Dick to roll over and disband his team because he felt they weren't capable of dealing with Donna. Then have them take Donna away and ground her in the JL watchtower. Then it was Abnett's continued idea to have Dick talk about how he failed with the first team all through his second run on the Titans book. You can't blame that stuff on editorial. That was Abnett's own story. Things like him folding the Titans into the JL because of how Snyder wanted all the heroes to be under the JL and run out of the Hall of Justice isn't on him, but him having the daddy JL come in and ground the Titans in his first run is all on him.

There's another post in this very thread that mentions that Abnett and Booth have both come out and said that they weren't allowed to tell the story that they were originally told they could tell at the beginning of this book. Whether or not you choose to believe what the writer himself has said is your prerogative, and you're a very well known critic of this run - which is fine, all things considered, it does have it's flaws and it's not perfect - but the fact of the matter is that even if he is the one that in part came up with these ideas the fact that they exist is entirely down to editorial from the moment that he was told he was not allowed to write the Wally West story that he was virtually promised.

I have to disagree. I guess we have a fundamental difference in how Donna is supposed to be. Even her being the leader of the team I never got a sense she was the warm or motherly figure of the team she was before. Felt like all she mostly did was complain. It feels very much like Abnett writes her as a generic Amazon warrior and I don't think he ever had a good feel for her character. She still feels like a completely different character to her pre flashpoint self. Maybe that is because of her awful New 52 origin where she is a generic warrior type and Abnett is just going off that, but I don't know.

Have you read the arc with Donna and the team lost in space? Like... at all? That's where her character arc seemed to come to a head; everything else before it was set-up or editorially mandated (like the stuff with Dick being dead). Specifically, it started to happen in Titans #31.

https://i.imgur.com/SuHm4A2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4uV9gCB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZBYGGWq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BbRnhZj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cHfz6gS.jpg

[Godlike13]

Did editorial tell him to have Roy wipe his ass and blatantly mock one of the only character that was going to remain in his book, and who basically was going to be face of the restructure. Obviously Roy was destined for great things, and they had big plans for him going forward. So i guess it'd make sense they would make him tell that story if they did, LoL.

At the end of the day the stories Abnett did tell were balls, and with over 2 years on the Titans he has accomplished nothing with the team or its characters. Each character and the Titans team itself is worse off after Abnett.

[darud]

I don't think the presence of the rest of the known NTT cast itself is what catapulted NTT. Those characters have not and do not save any comic they're all apart of since. I think you call a spade a spade and realize it was just Wolfman and Perez who struck hot at the right time with the right opening. Cyborg/BB/Raven/Starfire are not the formula for success and have not been elsewhere since NTT.

Dick is certainly the most important character in NTT. Everyone gets their moments, but Dick is the leader, the consistent focus of the narrative (both point of view and storytelling and action) and his character arc is the major throughline of the series. Starfire's attached to him at the hip in the story and it sure needed him more than it needed her.

Power level is not an argument. It has nothing to do with anything. Wally beat the entire JL a few months ago. Prometheus could beat the JL. Starfire is no Superman and Raven is no Green Lantern. I've already pointed out how they've reused Trigon half a dozen times and it has never done a bit for the franchise. It's a tired, old story beat that is beyond played out.

Donna isn't "At best close to Starfire." Whoever is more powerful is dependent on the writer. Garth's magic is literally whatever the writer wants it to be because it is magic. I don't think you get my point. This is not a versus argument. This is a writer's authority argument. A writer can make any character as powerful as they want given slight bending of what is already there. Dick can outsmart the entire Titans team and beat them, Wally could knock them all out before a synapse could fire, Raven could use her soul magic to disable all of them, Starfire could do a big blast that hits everyone, etc etc etc. Everyone is as powerful as the situation desires them to be. Anyone can beat up the JL. Raven and Starfire are not unique in this case.

This isn't me just talking about the fab five, this is me denouncing the idea that putting the NTT crew back together fixes anything. It never has and that is what they've been doing with the franchise for decades. Over and over. It's the least creative, least successful, least unique idea imaginable for the Titans. This is not an argument of potential -- that is a mine that has been stripped several times over. This thread is called Pitch a Direction: Titans. If your direction is the New Teen Titans, then that direction is backwards. You can certainly say that about the Fab Five, but at least the Fab Five had a neat hook before editorial crushed it.

You may not believe it but the reality is that the previous Titans were meh at best and low enough that from what I read around here W and P were pitied by the other writers when they took over TT. Bringing in new, original and interesting characters that made more than half of the team definitely playied a huge role in propelling the Titans in top. You might be able to tell good stories with the previous material but you can tell much better stories with a more compelling, interesting and richer material that the new characters provided.

Cyborg/BB/Raven/Starfire were obviously a very successful formula elsewhere, see the cartoons that were based on them and which are wildly popular even today, see the live series based on them, the animated movies and so on. It is some dumb management from DC that still hold them (the Titans in general) down and don't provide them adequate promotion because I think they can be even much more popular than now. They weren't as successful in comics because they were never allowed the same status and free reign as in W and P era.

Even that reunion of NTT (that had Roy too iirc) whe Raven had go evil for a while, was just for few issues and then they had break the team again for the following issues of that book. Didn't had how to work on the long run if you use them for just few issues. Other various partial reunions were plagued by various problems. Some members were missing, some were changed, deaged etc, the team was made subservient to the JL and so on. Its not the characters fault but the editorial who don't let the writers make them as they were in the original NTT period, a rival (in a good way) team of JL, just as good as them and not some JL mini me team looking for help or approval of the senior team at every more important step. Johns tried to revive a bit the old status, like Starfire standing up to WW in Cassie case but even then it was obvious the Titans were again held as an inferior team to JL with just very few characters able to stand on their feat and compare with them.

Dick had grow due to the NTT and Starfire playied a big role in that. He became over time the main character but he wasn't always or all the time. The NTT started with Raven as the main character and all the others had their fair share over time

Power levels and various abilities and connections on themselves are not everything but that allow the writer a richer material to draw from. They also allow the team and the characters to be placed on a more important spot and to not be relegated all the time to less important stories and events, made inferior and subordinated to their senior counterparts or mentors, unable to tackle more significant villains and so on. You can make as many Trigon or Deathstroke story arcs as Darkseid or Joker ones if you are creative enough for new takes on them and you keep the Titans at the same status as they were during W/P, or as peers to JL. Nobody complains that JL is always made of Batman, Superman, WW etc and fight same villains.

If you downplay them, if you dumb down the threats they fight, if you lack imagination and you're not allowed to tell good stories about them and always keep them in the shadow of JL then Titans will never come back to their glory days, regardless of who is the member there. But some are not like the others, some have better potential for more interesting or rich stories, and here I think the originals from the NTT shine more than the others.

[darud]

If you have to do a reunion, you need to include Wally. He's got a bigger fanbase than all of the other characters combined (except Nightwing) and is one of the few exceptions of a Titan actually progressing and getting better after the initial NTT era. He's one of the only victories the IP can even halfass claim that isn't thirty years old.

I'm fairly certain that including Hawk and Dove will actually pull sales down, though I have no concrete evidence.

Yes, I already say I will like Wally to be a core memebr, just as in NTT (same with Donna), just don't know if possible and what is his status these days.

I am not against having all the Fab 5 plus Lilith joining at least from time to time. Lilith even playied an important enough role in Trigon arc in NTT. I just think is hard to handle too many characters at once but they can rotate some from time to time. They just need to allow the Titans to move away a bit from the JL shadow and supervision and become again a team of their own, more independent and just as capable. With their own style, relations and abilities to take on various things, having their own important villains and not relying on JL for any signficant problem (swaping villains, crossovers and collaborations are OK)

[Aahz]

The Church of Blood- They have a clear leader but at times their agenda is unclear.

I'm pretty sure that they had several leaders over the years pre crisis. And non of them was particularly well developed.

Anyway when it comes to Titans villains, they have to create new ones and massively improve the existing ones (or maybe steal some from the JLA and JSA), as it is their rouges gallery is extremely weak.

[king81992]

I'm pretty sure that they had several leaders over the years pre crisis. And non of them was particularly well developed.

Anyway when it comes to Titans villains, they have to create new ones and massively improve the existing ones (or maybe steal some from the JLA and JSA), as it is their rouges gallery is extremely weak.

Fixing the Church of Blood is simple, really. Give Brother Blood an actual personality and henchmen who are actual characters and not faceless mooks.

The Titans rogue gallery is like Wonder Woman's: potentially interesting but writers only use certain rogues because of name recognition. Most of their rogues are actually solid concepts that were terribly executed.

Harvest would work just fine as a mad scientist who likes to experiment on teenage metahumans. The Hunger Games angle he had was weird, but it wasn't too offensive. What was really stupid was that the writers decided to add time travel to all of that. It made no sense and caused some of the more interesting concepts introduced in that run to be tainted by association.

Retooled Harvest- No more Hunger Games or time travel angle. He's a mad scientist who likes to experiment on metahumans for science and for profit. Maybe make him the leader of HIVE. His henchmen are metahumans and science based villains poached from other franchises. The Titans/TT must shut down his operation.

Lord Chaos was a crazed bombastic nutcase, so he has personality. Everything else about this guy needs to be overhauled.

Retooled Lord Chaos- He's an ancient evil that was sealed away and got revived in the modern era. His endgame is world domination. For henchmen, we'll borrow the Duke of Deception and the Earl of Greed from WW(these guys haven't been used in years). Besides the Earl and Duke, Lord Chaos's other henchmen don't really have a theme. They can be metahumans, science based or whatever. The Titans must defeat Lord Chaos and his henchmen to save the world.

Now that I think on it, time travel should be added to the taboos for what NEVER to do when you write a Titans/TT run. I can't think of a time travel story that went well for the franchise.