Pitch a Direction: Titans

[Dred]

You may not believe it but the reality is that the previous Titans were meh at best and low enough that from what I read around here W and P were pitied by the other writers when they took over TT. Bringing in new, original and interesting characters that made more than half of the team definitely playied a huge role in propelling the Titans in top. You might be able to tell good stories with the previous material but you can tell much better stories with a more compelling, interesting and richer material that the new characters provided.

Cyborg/BB/Raven/Starfire were obviously a very successful formula elsewhere, see the cartoons that were based on them and which are wildly popular even today, see the live series based on them, the animated movies and so on. It is some dumb management from DC that still hold them (the Titans in general) down and don't provide them adequate promotion because I think they can be even much more popular than now. They weren't as successful in comics because they were never allowed the same status and free reign as in W and P era.

Even that reunion of NTT (that had Roy too iirc) whe Raven had go evil for a while, was just for few issues and then they had break the team again for the following issues of that book. Didn't had how to work on the long run if you use them for just few issues. Other various partial reunions were plagued by various problems. Some members were missing, some were changed, deaged etc, the team was made subservient to the JL and so on. Its not the characters fault but the editorial who don't let the writers make them as they were in the original NTT period, a rival (in a good way) team of JL, just as good as them and not some JL mini me team looking for help or approval of the senior team at every more important step. Johns tried to revive a bit the old status, like Starfire standing up to WW in Cassie case but even then it was obvious the Titans were again held as an inferior team to JL with just very few characters able to stand on their feat and compare with them.

Dick had grow due to the NTT and Starfire playied a big role in that. He became over time the main character but he wasn't always or all the time. The NTT started with Raven as the main character and all the others had their fair share over time

Power levels and various abilities and connections on themselves are not everything but that allow the writer a richer material to draw from. They also allow the team and the characters to be placed on a more important spot and to not be relegated all the time to less important stories and events, made inferior and subordinated to their senior counterparts or mentors, unable to tackle more significant villains and so on. You can make as many Trigon or Deathstroke story arcs as Darkseid or Joker ones if you are creative enough for new takes on them and you keep the Titans at the same status as they were during W/P, or as peers to JL. Nobody complains that JL is always made of Batman, Superman, WW etc and fight same villains.

If you downplay them, if you dumb down the threats they fight, if you lack imagination and you're not allowed to tell good stories about them and always keep them in the shadow of JL then Titans will never come back to their glory days, regardless of who is the member there. But some are not like the others, some have better potential for more interesting or rich stories, and here I think the originals from the NTT shine more than the others.

These aren't new characters, man. All of the stuff you're talking about is played out a million times over. That's the problem. They don't have more potential. As a matter of fact, the NTT crew has had significantly more stories dedicated to them than the Fab Five incarnation because the only thing they ever attempt to do to revive the franchise is put the NTT crew together and reuse the same stories from the 80s. The NTT are not magical characters who fix everything. If your solution is "Write them better" then that would work for any incarnation of the team.

Stop mentioning power levels. Power levels are pointless. Anyone can have any power level the writer wants them to have.

[Ropeburn]

The proactive counterpoint to the League's reactive stance on crime fighting.
The Titans have been around for a long time and they know better than anyone all the patterns that keep leading to world-ending events.
They have knowledge of myths, history, magic, alternate realities, underground organizations and have all the experience and youth necessary to come up with fresh and effective solutions to old problems.
Most of all, they have an actual clairvoyant in their ranks to guide them to threats before they get big enough for the League to take notice.

As far as roster goes, I'd keep the concept of former sidekicks, but I would highlight how they all evolved to something different from their mentor figures. I'd acknowledge the history of the NTT team, but my focus would be on the originals, because I think Cyborg, Starfire, Raven and BB would be better used elsewhere (JLO, JLO, JLD and a new "JLI", respectively).

The team would be:

Donna (Legend) - expert on history and mythology
Nightwing - intel + Bat and Spyral connections
Tempest - Atlantean connection and magician
Arsenal - connection to DC's underworld
Flash (Wally) - expert on time, space and alternate realities
Natasha Irons (Sentinel) - the tech genius
Omen - team's window to the future

Other characters from previous incarnations would pop from time to time, but these would be the core.
You'll notice the roster is very similar to Abnett's. It's weird, because I absolutely hated his runs, but I still see tons of unrealized potential in the cast. I think better writing and direction would do them justice.

Oh, and no Teen Titans for a while. I'd use the better characters in YJ or other books across the line, so Titans and Young Justice could remain distinct without stepping in each other's toes.

Love this. If you had a Paul Pelletier artist or better, I'd buy three issues a month to help keep this going.

[wvchemteach]

The proactive counterpoint to the League's reactive stance on crime fighting.
The Titans have been around for a long time and they know better than anyone all the patterns that keep leading to world-ending events.
They have knowledge of myths, history, magic, alternate realities, underground organizations and have all the experience and youth necessary to come up with fresh and effective solutions to old problems.
Most of all, they have an actual clairvoyant in their ranks to guide them to threats before they get big enough for the League to take notice.

As far as roster goes, I'd keep the concept of former sidekicks, but I would highlight how they all evolved to something different from their mentor figures. I'd acknowledge the history of the NTT team, but my focus would be on the originals, because I think Cyborg, Starfire, Raven and BB would be better used elsewhere (JLO, JLO, JLD and a new "JLI", respectively).

The team would be:

Donna (Legend) - expert on history and mythology
Nightwing - intel + Bat and Spyral connections
Tempest - Atlantean connection and magician
Arsenal - connection to DC's underworld
Flash (Wally) - expert on time, space and alternate realities
Natasha Irons (Sentinel) - the tech genius
Omen - team's window to the future

Other characters from previous incarnations would pop from time to time, but these would be the core.
You'll notice the roster is very similar to Abnett's. It's weird, because I absolutely hated his runs, but I still see tons of unrealized potential in the cast. I think better writing and direction would do them justice.

Oh, and no Teen Titans for a while. I'd use the better characters in YJ or other books across the line, so Titans and Young Justice could remain distinct without stepping in each other's toes.

I could definitely see this working. One story arch they are tracking down either the League of Shadows or Leviathan, perhaps with an assist from Tiger or Huntress and using Dick's Spyral connections then the next story arc they trying to beat Vandall Savage to some ancient object of power, then the next arch they are battling some sort of OMAC/Braniac project concocted by Lex Luthor, then follow that up with them searching for a lost Atlantean artifact that can be used by Black Manta to or another enemy of Atlantis to destabilize things.

[darud]

These aren't new characters, man. All of the stuff you're talking about is played out a million times over. That's the problem. They don't have more potential. As a matter of fact, the NTT crew has had significantly more stories dedicated to them than the Fab Five incarnation because the only thing they ever attempt to do to revive the franchise is put the NTT crew together and reuse the same stories from the 80s. The NTT are not magical characters who fix everything. If your solution is "Write them better" then that would work for any incarnation of the team.

Stop mentioning power levels. Power levels are pointless. Anyone can have any power level the writer wants them to have.

Well, I suppose we must agree we disagree. They are not new now, they were back then, and since Titans before them didn't worked anywhere near as good is obvious they were a huge part in their success.

The stuffs I am talking about weren't either done too much, is more of a preconception that they were (I don't even bother to repeat again the comparison with JL). There wasn't any serious attempts to bring the NTT back after W and P era. Afaik the exact same team, plus Roy, was reunited only once (that time we mentioned with evil Raven), and that was just for few issues before to be broken apart again. So even that wasn't a full hearted attempt. Johns tried to revive a bit the old spirit (but partially with new characters) and that was again an OK rise in status for the TT even if still not quite as in NTT period.

And above all, even when they were partially reunited (and some from Fab five were most of the time present too) they were downgraded from their previous spot and status and weren't allowed the same free reign and possibilities.

First time when they were allowed to be again an independent team doing things on their own was in that original cartoon (and the best part there was arguably the same Raven-Trigon arc, a Judas Contract as in the original comics wouldn't be possible in such cartoon for obvious reasons). That cartoon propelled again the Titans as one of the biggest name in DC and that team was the original characters of NTT plus Dick

About power levels, I admit is debatable. As I said I agree that is not enough and is needed a good story too regardless of who are the characters. However you can't have Garth, Lilith or Wally standing up face to face vs Trigon, or Roy and even Nightwing going toe to toe with a pissed off Wonder Woman, it will look ridiculous or silly even in those kiddie cartoons let alone in a more serious comic, or will require some unrealistic PIS.

The NTT balance the best some Fab five members with the characters introduced back then and who became ones of the best and most iconic Titans ever and in my opinion that should be the core group of Titans. They have as well the best or biggest potential to develop multiple story arcs.

Raven- magic, mysticism, dark and good, parallel dimensions, underworld, even time travel, can teleport the team across dimensions, have psionic powers, is the powerful daughter of the archetypal Satan in DC (at some point I think she became as well the aunt of Etrigan iirc). So basically lots of possibilities for conflicts or relations with not just Trigon but also her brothers, various demons, angels, occult groups, interdimensional entities and realms and other magical characters, telepaths and so on, can heal people if needed. I will make a long story arc for her as being forced to take over Trigon throne in the underworld, but keeping that a secret to anybody, including the Titans, and sometime sliping to her dark side but without showing that directly

Starfire - can bring in the sci fi, with aliens, ET civilizations, space ships, far away planets, is normally able to fight to a standstill even WW, have a big rivalry with a similar powered but very devious sister and is enemy with some very nasty alien groups

Dick - whatever more street level threats, can be a detective, spy, can bring the fight with various assassins, more earthly cults or crimnal groups, mafia like groups, is a very competent leader that sometime in the past was able to coordinate the Titans to prevail against a JL coordinated by Batman (ironically, to save Cyborg who is now in JL).

Donna- mythology side, ancient gods and creatures, great fighter around WW and Starfire category (even if usually depicted as slightly inferior than WW at least), can support Dick or even replace him at times as the team leader (same as Starfire).

BB- can come with the relation with the nature, animals, life, can act as the team scout, taking various forms and sneaking in places where they want an eye on the ground to check, can also be the team face for the relation with the general public, PR and media guy.

Cyborg (or Steel now) - the tech guy (girl) with anything that means

I don't know what happened to Wally these days, he will be also a great addition

You can bring in from time to time others (Roy, Lilith, Kyle, Garth, Miss Martian and so on) and even temporary rotate some members in the main team, I am OK with that.

How I see the things, the main idea is to let them go free and be an independent team of the same status and on the same level as the JL. And have the editorial stop messing with them and let the writers free to do whatever stories they want to, just as W and P, that was also a big point in their success at that time.

[SiegePerilous02]

The Fab 5 remind me of the O5 of the X-Men: some great characters, but those exact combinations are very dull to me. The franchises didn't become fully formed and start showing full potential with those combinations, but with what came after in the Bronze Age.

Roy and Garth can be added to the NTT crew (which already has Dick, Wally and Donna) without much disruption, so I think those 9 characters should be the core group, with everyone else floating in and out. None of the characters are new and both combinations have an uphill climb to be fresh and relevant again, but the 80s characters are from the most popular period and have the greatest other media presence. It's contributed more success to the franchise and already includes most of the characters from the Fab 5 anyway, so just go for the full package.

The Titans are just stuck though: any other characters and its not the Titans. But reunions, especially the half assed ones, definitely don't work on their own either.

[TheCape]

The Fab 5 remind me of the O5 of the X-Men: some great characters, but those exact combinations are very dull to me. The franchises didn't become fully formed and start showing full potential with those combinations, but with what came after in the Bronze Age.

Roy and Garth can be added to the NTT crew (which already has Dick, Wally and Donna) without much disruption, so I think those 9 characters should be the core group, with everyone else floating in and out. None of the characters are new and both combinations have an uphill climb to be fresh and relevant again, but the 80s characters are from the most popular period and have the greatest other media presence. It's contributed more success to the franchise and already includes most of the characters from the Fab 5 anyway, so just go for the full package.

The Titans are just stuck though: any other characters and its not the Titans. But reunions, especially the half assed ones, definitely don't work on their own either.

Eh, the O5 from the X-Men had their good moments, Joe Casey and Jeff Parker did a good job. In a similar vein Teen Titans: Year One is pretty fun.

[Timothy Hunter]

The only feasible way to make the Titans prominent again is for them to replace the Justice League generation of characters. I appreciate legacy in the DC Universe, however there is no way you can have 4 generations of superheroes running around, without much of those characters being neglected.

You don't have to take the aforementioned to the extreme. You can still keep Kent as Superman and Wayne as Batman, but in order for the Titans characters to be taken seriously, they have to take most of their mentor's place. Garth as Aquaman, Roy as Green Arrow, etcetera.

[SiegePerilous02]

The only feasible way to make the Titans prominent again is for them to replace the Justice League generation of characters. I appreciate legacy in the DC Universe, however there is no way you can have 4 generations of superheroes running around, without much of those characters being neglected.

You don't have to take the aforementioned to the extreme. You can still keep Kent as Superman and Wayne as Batman, but in order for the Titans characters to be taken seriously, they have to take most of their mentor's place. Garth as Aquaman, Roy as Green Arrow, etcetera.

Arthur is cemented as Aquaman, especially now. Nobody else can or should be Aquaman, IMO.

Even if the JL generation moved on, couldn't Garth just be Tempest?

[Harpsikord]

Eh, the O5 from the X-Men had their good moments, Joe Casey and Jeff Parker did a good job. In a similar vein Teen Titans: Year One is pretty fun.

Remember how the original run of X-Factor was the second most popular book for Marvel at the time?

[Badou]

There's another post in this very thread that mentions that Abnett and Booth have both come out and said that they weren't allowed to tell the story that they were originally told they could tell at the beginning of this book. Whether or not you choose to believe what the writer himself has said is your prerogative, and you're a very well known critic of this run - which is fine, all things considered, it does have it's flaws and it's not perfect - but the fact of the matter is that even if he is the one that in part came up with these ideas the fact that they exist is entirely down to editorial from the moment that he was told he was not allowed to write the Wally West story that he was virtually promised.

Well that is a completely different thing though. There are parts of Abnett's first Titans run where his plans changed in dealing with Wally and the Rebirth story. That is very evident. He clearly had ideas of tying his Titans story and Wally's return with the larger Rebirth and Manhattan plot, maybe even do more with Wally and Linda, but he wasn't allowed to. Him at the end of his first run a year later deciding to have the JL come in and force Dick to disband the Titans and ground Donna was on him. I haven't seen anything suggesting that by that point in the series editorial was writing his stories for him or telling him how to characterize his team. Those decisions and choices are all on Abnett. He did that because he wanted to set up his Roy story arc, who he clearly favored going all the way back to Titans Hunt.

Have you read the arc with Donna and the team lost in space? Like... at all? That's where her character arc seemed to come to a head; everything else before it was set-up or editorially mandated (like the stuff with Dick being dead). Specifically, it started to happen in Titans #31.

https://i.imgur.com/SuHm4A2.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/4uV9gCB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZBYGGWq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/BbRnhZj.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/cHfz6gS.jpg

I've skimmed it, but to me that felt so hollow because I don't think this Donna is much like the old Donna. Grasping at the air to have this big emotional moment that feels forced because the characters haven't been used well as part of the team, but that comes down to personal preference too. If you are someone that likes this version of Donna then it would be a nice moment, but as someone that hasn't enjoyed this version then it will feel off.

Also I just realized that the time line for her speech is weird. I think Dick got shot before Roy got killed in HiC. Since Dick would have gone to Roy's funeral if he was alive.

[Badou]

The fundamental difference in the X-Men O5 and the Titans Fab 5 is that the O5 were allowed to grow into adults and stay there. Like I can't remember the last time a Cyclops or a Beast were challenged by other heroes in the MCU for being too young, immature or inexperienced. The Fab 5 are constantly challenged like that seemingly every single comic run at some point. It is a hallmark of the Titans brand at this point. It goes back to my issue with how I don't think the adult Titans can ever be looked at or treated like other adult heroes properly while still in the Titans.

[Dred]

Well, I suppose we must agree we disagree. They are not new now, they were back then, and since Titans before them didn't worked anywhere near as good is obvious they were a huge part in their success.

The stuffs I am talking about weren't either done too much, is more of a preconception that they were (I don't even bother to repeat again the comparison with JL). There wasn't any serious attempts to bring the NTT back after W and P era. Afaik the exact same team, plus Roy, was reunited only once (that time we mentioned with evil Raven), and that was just for few issues before to be broken apart again. So even that wasn't a full hearted attempt. Johns tried to revive a bit the old spirit (but partially with new characters) and that was again an OK rise in status for the TT even if still not quite as in NTT period.

And above all, even when they were partially reunited (and some from Fab five were most of the time present too) they were downgraded from their previous spot and status and weren't allowed the same free reign and possibilities.

First time when they were allowed to be again an independent team doing things on their own was in that original cartoon (and the best part there was arguably the same Raven-Trigon arc, a Judas Contract as in the original comics wouldn't be possible in such cartoon for obvious reasons). That cartoon propelled again the Titans as one of the biggest name in DC and that team was the original characters of NTT plus Dick

About power levels, I admit is debatable. As I said I agree that is not enough and is needed a good story too regardless of who are the characters. However you can't have Garth, Lilith or Wally standing up face to face vs Trigon, or Roy and even Nightwing going toe to toe with a pissed off Wonder Woman, it will look ridiculous or silly even in those kiddie cartoons let alone in a more serious comic, or will require some unrealistic PIS.

The NTT balance the best some Fab five members with the characters introduced back then and who became ones of the best and most iconic Titans ever and in my opinion that should be the core group of Titans. They have as well the best or biggest potential to develop multiple story arcs.

Raven- magic, mysticism, dark and good, parallel dimensions, underworld, even time travel, can teleport the team across dimensions, have psionic powers, is the powerful daughter of the archetypal Satan in DC (at some point I think she became as well the aunt of Etrigan iirc). So basically lots of possibilities for conflicts or relations with not just Trigon but also her brothers, various demons, angels, occult groups, interdimensional entities and realms and other magical characters, telepaths and so on, can heal people if needed. I will make a long story arc for her as being forced to take over Trigon throne in the underworld, but keeping that a secret to anybody, including the Titans, and sometime sliping to her dark side but without showing that directly

Starfire - can bring in the sci fi, with aliens, ET civilizations, space ships, far away planets, is normally able to fight to a standstill even WW, have a big rivalry with a similar powered but very devious sister and is enemy with some very nasty alien groups

Dick - whatever more street level threats, can be a detective, spy, can bring the fight with various assassins, more earthly cults or crimnal groups, mafia like groups, is a very competent leader that sometime in the past was able to coordinate the Titans to prevail against a JL coordinated by Batman (ironically, to save Cyborg who is now in JL).

Donna- mythology side, ancient gods and creatures, great fighter around WW and Starfire category (even if usually depicted as slightly inferior than WW at least), can support Dick or even replace him at times as the team leader (same as Starfire).

BB- can come with the relation with the nature, animals, life, can act as the team scout, taking various forms and sneaking in places where they want an eye on the ground to check, can also be the team face for the relation with the general public, PR and media guy.

Cyborg (or Steel now) - the tech guy (girl) with anything that means

I don't know what happened to Wally these days, he will be also a great addition

You can bring in from time to time others (Roy, Lilith, Kyle, Garth, Miss Martian and so on) and even temporary rotate some members in the main team, I am OK with that.

How I see the things, the main idea is to let them go free and be an independent team of the same status and on the same level as the JL. And have the editorial stop messing with them and let the writers free to do whatever stories they want to, just as W and P, that was also a big point in their success at that time.

In Rebirth they stuck together Starfire, Robin, Beast Boy, Raven, and Kid Flash. Is that familiar to you? Is Cyborg absolutely necessary for the magical revival of the Titans to finally emerge? Because I don't think so, especially since you neglect Cyborg in basically all of your explanations as to why the NTT would fix the franchise. I'm legitimately curious if you think just putting the cartoon show 5 together will unlock a sales zeitgeist for the franchise, because it did not before and reusing Starfire and Raven's and Deathstroke's stories have not benefited the franchise since.

I don't get how you can't have Garth, Lilith and Wally stand in the face of Trigon or any other major threat. For one, Wally already did it and Wally has stared Death in the face and said "let's boogie." No Titan, past or present, has done the absurd things Wally has done. Wally shattered the Anti Monitor's armor for goodness sake, and Anti Monitor is a way bigger baddie than Trigon ever dreamed of being. For two, Garth has magic powers. MAGIC. Did you ever read Obsidian Age? Because Atlantean magic is oftentimes way more absurdly powerful than the stuff Raven pulls off. An Atlantean sorceress threw the Earth into the Sun had not the combined efforts of the JL + Manitou Raven stopped. So yeah, Garth could be scaled up as easily as you want. Finally, Lilith is a psychic. All you gotta do is draw her squinting really hard and blammo, psychic powers that contend with Trigon's mind. Obviously that will never be the case because in a Trigon story Raven will be present to do the metaphysical dueling, but Lilith has outright been stated as of the highest level of psychic in DC in Abnett's own run, so why couldn't her powers that are rated as the highest of the high tiers not cope with, I don't know, Beast Boy or Starfire or Cyborg?

All the things you're listing off and mentioning have been used and tried many times before. So your direction just is backwards. If those are the kinds of stories you like then more power to you, but it would not make the Titans successful in any broader sense.

The fundamental difference in the X-Men O5 and the Titans Fab 5 is that the O5 were allowed to grow into adults and stay there. Like I can't remember the last time a Cyclops or a Beast were challenged by other heroes in the MCU for being too young, immature or inexperienced. The Fab 5 are constantly challenged like that seemingly every single comic run at some point. It is a hallmark of the Titans brand at this point. It goes back to my issue with how I don't think the adult Titans can ever be looked at or treated like other adult heroes properly while still in the Titans.

Dick and Wally did this and, go figure, Dick and Wally are two of DC's most successful, most well written, most developed characters. The others never got the chance besides maaaybe Roy, and most people will say he was at his best before they ruined that.

Garth never had a shot due to Aquaman's waning popularity in the era where the Fab Five grew up, and Donna...well, Donna got the "Let's reboot Wonder Woman and fuck everything up about Donna in the process because who gives a shit about Donna?" treatment. It's almost like if we just treated those other three with the same level of respect and opportunity Wally and Dick got they might've stood out more.

[king81992]

In Rebirth they stuck together Starfire, Robin, Beast Boy, Raven, and Kid Flash. Is that familiar to you? Is Cyborg absolutely necessary for the magical revival of the Titans to finally emerge? Because I don't think so, especially since you neglect Cyborg in basically all of your explanations as to why the NTT would fix the franchise. I'm legitimately curious if you think just putting the cartoon show 5 together will unlock a sales zeitgeist for the franchise, because it did not before and reusing Starfire and Raven's and Deathstroke's stories have not benefited the franchise since.

I don't get how you can't have Garth, Lilith and Wally stand in the face of Trigon or any other major threat. For one, Wally already did it and Wally has stared Death in the face and said "let's boogie." No Titan, past or present, has done the absurd things Wally has done. Wally shattered the Anti Monitor's armor for goodness sake, and Anti Monitor is a way bigger baddie than Trigon ever dreamed of being. For two, Garth has magic powers. MAGIC. Did you ever read Obsidian Age? Because Atlantean magic is oftentimes way more absurdly powerful than the stuff Raven pulls off. An Atlantean sorceress threw the Earth into the Sun had not the combined efforts of the JL + Manitou Raven stopped. So yeah, Garth could be scaled up as easily as you want. Finally, Lilith is a psychic. All you gotta do is draw her squinting really hard and blammo, psychic powers that contend with Trigon's mind. Obviously that will never be the case because in a Trigon story Raven will be present to do the metaphysical dueling, but Lilith has outright been stated as of the highest level of psychic in DC in Abnett's own run, so why couldn't her powers that are rated as the highest of the high tiers not cope with, I don't know, Beast Boy or Starfire or Cyborg?

All the things you're listing off and mentioning have been used and tried many times before. So your direction just is backwards. If those are the kinds of stories you like then more power to you, but it would not make the Titans successful in any broader sense.



Dick and Wally did this and, go figure, Dick and Wally are two of DC's most successful, most well written, most developed characters. The others never got the chance besides maaaybe Roy, and most people will say he was at his best before they ruined that.

Garth never had a shot due to Aquaman's waning popularity in the era where the Fab Five grew up, and Donna...well, Donna got the "Let's reboot Wonder Woman and fuck everything up about Donna in the process because who gives a shit about Donna?" treatment. It's almost like if we just treated those other three with the same level of respect and opportunity Wally and Dick got they might've stood out more.

Putting the cast of the cartoon together probably would not unlock a 'sales zeitgeist'. Besides, fans are more interested in having higher quality stories than sales. I do agree with your point about retelling old stories. The time has come to stop retelling old tales and retool characters so new stories can be told(you can tell new stories without retooling characters but the franchise has reached a point where retools are absolutely necessary).

Donna is actually the easiest Titan to fix, just make her WW's little sister and ignore everything else. Now would be the perfect time to push Garth and make him relevant because of Aquaman's success at the box office. I'm not sure why Lilith has never been able to catch on. Her powerset is versatile and there are plenty of ways she could be used. I'd have her act as the team's psychiatrist/ secret weapon.

[Godlike13]

The fundamental difference in the X-Men O5 and the Titans Fab 5 is that the O5 were allowed to grow into adults and stay there. Like I can't remember the last time a Cyclops or a Beast were challenged by other heroes in the MCU for being too young, immature or inexperienced. The Fab 5 are constantly challenged like that seemingly every single comic run at some point. It is a hallmark of the Titans brand at this point. It goes back to my issue with how I don't think the adult Titans can ever be looked at or treated like other adult heroes properly while still in the Titans.

I can, but for example when say Captain America tries to tell Cyclops to bend over he literally tells him to F off.

The adult Titans will never be looked at or treated like other adult heroes as long as they’re written and portrayed as a team of adult sidekicks.

[king81992]

I can, but for example when say Captain America tries to tell Cyclops to bend over he literally tells him to F off.

The adult Titans will never be looked at or treated like other adult heroes as long as they’re written and portrayed as a team of adult sidekicks.

Honestly, the Titans need to tell the JL to F off. The JL has been incompetent since Metal and its really hypocritical of them to question the Titans competence with everything that's happened on their watch. As things are now, the Titans for all their incompetence and drama are slightly more reliable than their so called mentors.