Pitch a Direction: Titans

[Harpsikord]

Young Justice, which you just mentioned, is an outside media incarnation of the Teen Titans. It's clearly based on the franchise and its members despite making its own changes. Like ignoring a lot of the NTT cast, amusingly!

Based on certain aspects of the Teen Titans or not, Young Justice is still Young Justice and therefore irrelevant to my point. Compare to the 2003 cartoon, the animated shorts, Teen Titans Go, the video games related to the cartoon, the DCAU films, and Titans... yeah. Starfire.

Oh! AND Injustice!

Also outside of Grayson? Wally West is by far the most successful despite years of editorial not wanting him to succeed, as opposed to Starfire who they really want to succeed.

Did I not also include Wally West? For this very reason?

Pretty sure I did.

Also, Starfire isn't not succeeding. She's still one of DC's most marketable and recognizable female characters, right up there with Catwoman, Harley Quinn, Wonder Woman, and Supergirl. She's one of the few heroes that the general populace is going to recognize regardless. I'm sorry, but Wally is a Flash: he's going to get conflated with Barry regardless outside of the TV show.

[Dred]

Based on certain aspects of the Teen Titans or not, Young Justice is still Young Justice and therefore irrelevant to my point. Compare to the 2003 cartoon, the animated shorts, Teen Titans Go, the video games related to the cartoon, the DCAU films, and Titans... yeah. Starfire.

Oh! AND Injustice!



Did I not also include Wally West? For this very reason?

Pretty sure I did.

Also, Starfire isn't not succeeding. She's still one of DC's most marketable and recognizable female characters, right up there with Catwoman, Harley Quinn, Wonder Woman, and Supergirl. She's one of the few heroes that the general populace is going to recognize regardless. I'm sorry, but Wally is a Flash: he's going to get conflated with Barry regardless outside of the TV show.

Did I miss something in your post? You specifically said "Apart from Grayson she's also the only member of the Titans that has really enjoyed a semi-successful solo run. (Sorry Cyborg, your push doesn't count.)" I would qualify Wally as A: a Titan and B: enjoying a semi-successful solo run.

I think distinguishing between Young Justice as not a Teen Titans franchise because of the name is a bit arbitrary. It's a DC property about Teen heroes doing superhero stuff and growing up. Young Justice the comic was just its generation of Teen Titans, just with a cool new name that PAD came up with (and, go figure, they eventually renamed it to fit in the umbrella). I guess you can make that distinction but Young Justice is in all thematic ways a Teen Titans media representation, especially with the season 1 team. Wally West, Dick Grayson, and Roy Harper would not qualify as Young Justice franchise characters, but as Teen Titans.

The distinction is there was a show already on called Teen Titans, so you can't have two shows called Teen Titans.

[king81992]

And fighting some of the same villains. That certainly doesn't help. What was great about the initial Trigon, Deathstroke, Brother Blood, Fearsome Five, Blackfire, etc. stories is that they were all NEW. We need a healthy mix of old and new, like all the other major properties. Johns is definitely doing it now with Shazam, and did it with Aquaman and GL. Morrison did it with Batman. Injecting some new life into the Titans by looking at their ENTIRE history and adding onto it is seemingly very difficult to do with them, which is disappointing. We get some new X-Men every few years, some of them manage to stick. Claremont banged out some classics like Rogue, Psylocke, Gambit and Jubilee even after his split with Byrne. Surely it's possible to come up with brand new team members, not tied to any other franchise, who are in the same age group? Hell, maybe a bit older to finally get rid of the "only teens/former teen heroes need apply" stigma?

I think the lack of civilian supporting characters has also hurt the franchise. Both old and new. I checked out of both recent NTT reunions fairly quickly, but did Sarah Sims, Vic's grandparents, Questor, Arella (alive/dead/what?), etc. ever make any appearances? Even (God help us) Terry Long made the book better with his presence, because at least he was a supporting character that was memorable (if for not quite the reasons the author intended). We really need an injection of new side players as well.

Raven's current comic has implied that Arella is still alive. I'm not sure if Wolfman has done anything with that plotline yet.

[Harpsikord]

Did I miss something in your post? You specifically said "Apart from Grayson she's also the only member of the Titans that has really enjoyed a semi-successful solo run. (Sorry Cyborg, your push doesn't count.)" I would qualify Wally as A: a Titan and B: enjoying a semi-successful solo run.

That one's my bad - I misunderstood that point you were trying to make with that. Sorry.

I think distinguishing between Young Justice as not a Teen Titans franchise because of the name is a bit arbitrary. It's a DC property about Teen heroes doing superhero stuff and growing up. Young Justice the comic was just its generation of Teen Titans, just with a cool new name that PAD came up with (and, go figure, they eventually renamed it to fit in the umbrella). I guess you can make that distinction but Young Justice is in all thematic ways a Teen Titans media representation, especially with the season 1 team. Wally West, Dick Grayson, and Roy Harper would not qualify as Young Justice franchise characters, but as Teen Titans.

The distinction is there was a show already on called Teen Titans, so you can't have two shows called Teen Titans.

The big difference between the two of them are the characters that they focus on. The general conceit of Young Justice was that it revolved around Superboy, and once the first season was over they were pretty quick to trade out Grayson for a different Robin even if he continued to show up as Nightwing. I also think that the attachment to the League defines Young Justice as a different entity entirely; even when they were sidekicks the Teen Titans always existed as a unique group to the League, which is part of what makes the second direction of Abnett's run ring so hollow... and the first, actually. The Titans should never be so tightly related to the Justice League and they should never, ever be their subordinates, which Young Justice (or the Team therein) is.

[Dred]

That one's my bad - I misunderstood that point you were trying to make with that. Sorry.



The big difference between the two of them are the characters that they focus on. The general conceit of Young Justice was that it revolved around Superboy, and once the first season was over they were pretty quick to trade out Grayson for a different Robin even if he continued to show up as Nightwing. I also think that the attachment to the League defines Young Justice as a different entity entirely; even when they were sidekicks the Teen Titans always existed as a unique group to the League, which is part of what makes the second direction of Abnett's run ring so hollow... and the first, actually. The Titans should never be so tightly related to the Justice League and they should never, ever be their subordinates, which Young Justice (or the Team therein) is.

Ehhh, the original Teen Titans would fret and worry about their mentors getting mad at their actions and stuff. Though most of the time they were just dropping weird 60s lingo. They were certainly their subordinates outside the comic, at least. Johns' Teen titans kind of has this going on, too.

[Harpsikord]

Ehhh, the original Teen Titans would fret and worry about their mentors getting mad at their actions and stuff. Though most of the time they were just dropping weird 60s lingo. They were certainly their subordinates outside the comic, at least. Johns' Teen titans kind of has this going on, too.

I don't recall this with Johns' TT, and the original Teen Titans lost it pretty quickly. The moment that the team got beyond the Fab Five just hanging out and being buddies, they were effectively their own thing, and continued to be for the majority of their run. The rest of that run had nothing to do with the League, neither did NTT, and Greyson's run only had to do with them in that Wally was playing double duty and the team formed as a direct response to the Titans getting back together to help out Cyborg shortly before this. And then say what you will about it, Winnick's run had them operating independently as well.

The Titans are at their best when they aren't attached to the supposedly larger concept of the Justice League. That's what YJ is better suited as - and if what you say about Johns' TT is true, perhaps Tim's generation entirely. There's a reason that they were the Titans of Tomorrow and not Dick, Donna, etc I suppose.

[Timothy Hunter]

In retrospect, what I think DC should've done with the New Fifty Two, was instead of having a pseudo reboot as they did with that hitherto relaunch, they should have had the main continuity undergo a time jump 5 years into the future and have the vast majority of the Titans members take the monikers of their original mentors. The central title of this relaunch would be a Justice League title (really a defacto Titans comic) with Dick Grayson as Batman, Donna Troy as Wonder Woman, Garth as Aquaman, Connor Hawke as Green Arrow, Wally West as the Flash, etcetera.* Then have the rest of the team consist of the more conventional members of the Justice League.** This actually wouldn't be that hard to accomplish as much of the original heroes the legacy characters would replace weren't that chart topping to begin with. It's not like titles such as Aquaman and Green Arrow are such sacred national treasures, that they could never divert from the status quo. All that needs to be done, is to bring in high profile, passionate, and smart writers in to navigate this paradigm shift. Plus if the intention of the New Fifty Two was to truly attract new readers, DC needn't have worried, as the average Joe on the street who has never read a comic in his life, but is interested in doing so, would probably not care if Aquaman was Arthur Curry or not.



*have reserve members that are legacy variations on past heroes. (à la Thunder and Lightning in the role of Black Lightning, Jade in the role of Green Latern.)

**perhaps Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, an aged up Superman serving as a mentor to the group.

[darud]

I don't get what you're talking about. The NTT had Dick, Donna, and Wally on it still. Do you think Garth and Roy somehow magically upsets the world and makes the Titans lesser? Do you think injecting Starfire, Raven, and Beast Boy fixes all woes?

Well, yes, bringing Raven, Starfire, BB and Cyborg not just that fixed the TT but pushed them right on top, among the most successful comics of that era, in general, not just for DC. Also made the basis for their big success in cartoons and now live series. I like the other Titans too and I will be more than OK for them to join the team from time to time but yes, they don't bring as much on the table as the original NTT ones

I don't. Because they've done exactly that -- well not exactly, but the 90s Titans series had Dick, Wally, Starfire, and Cyborg on it and still saw the same issues. The magic isn't in having no sidekicks, because the two most important characters in Wolfman and Perez's run were Dick and Donna by far (I know you're putting the Trigon arc on a pedastal but NTT had a lot more issues than that). Lilith, the unofficial sixth of the fab five, was also a semi frequent member. Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy and Cyborg have all been on teams together in various incarnations and that has not fixed anything. And Cyborg is also off limits on the JL now, and that will not be changing for some years given the state of the movies.

The point isn't that being former sidekicks ruins everything. Otherwise NTT would not have worked because it heavily relied on those characters. It's more likely NTT was a flash in the pan due to timing, standout talent, and editorial support.

Ascended offered a quite good reply actually, but I will go a bit more detailed

I won't say Dick and Donna were the most important by far. Maybe on some moments, surely not always. Raven, Starfire etc definitely had their moments too, especially at first when the NTT were formed (by Raven, basically) and established their new status in DC (which wasn't anymore the teen sidekicks of JL but a combination of original characters and few former sidekicks moving away from their mentors shadow, all of them already young adults by now).

Trigon (and by extension Raven) had put the Titans on top as an A team as powerful as the JL. Not just that he had an interesting and iconic story arc in TT history but he is one of the most powerful characters in DC. Dealing with him successfuly had shown that Titans can be at least as good as the JL (who were mostly irrelevant in the fight against him) when they have to face such huge threat levels. Starfire KOing WW or Raven taking down the JL were also moments who established that Titans not just that don't necessary need to look for JL help at every corner and in such big problems but they can be just as powerful (or even superior) to them.

Then as I said, if and when they bring back together the NTT they also need to bring back that spirit and their previous status from W and P era. If you bring them just to polish the boots of JL or wash the Batmobil and do some JL less important errands it won't work. If you downplay or dumbdown their villains to not upset some scale that make JL look better when fight their own it will also won't work, regardless which members you use for the Titans

I get that you love the non-sidekick NTT cast but they have never fixed the woes of the franchise no matter how many times they've tried. There's alteast 5 or 6 Trigon rehash arcs in various Titan/Teen Titan incarnations since NTT ended and they don't fix anything, and that's your go to example. Why do you think that this will fix it when it has been tried and failed so often? Like seriously, you're talking about Raven taking over the throne when I'm pretty freaking sure that is straight out of a 2008 Titans arc (the one with all her dumb brothers). And it certainly isn't about powerlevel because Wally and Donna are as heavy hitting powerlevel wise as you can get, and Garth knows magic which is literally as powerful as you want it to be.

I already said why the later NTT reunions didn't worked quite as good as the original. Also Raven didn't take over Trigon throne, she had get evil, wanted to take over Earth and main DC universe and that was resolved in the same couple issues by her turning back herself to her good side. Then just few issues later the NTT were broken again however and nothing could have develop more, obviously.
What I thought of, inspired by Ascended post too (didn't remembered it was him) was that she take the throne of his underworld realms, but in secret, without telling anyone about and still playing along as Titans member. I think that will open more possibilities for various story arcs on the long run.

About power levels, well, Donna is a powerhouse, I agree, but she is at best close to Starfire. Wally is great, I will definitley be OK to come back, if possible. Garth, no ofence but is not anywhere near Raven, neither as magic neither as potential for stories. Steel can at least partially replace Cyborg as the tech guy, or girl in this case

I get you like more the Fab 5, and I am ok with them joining the team from time to time, that will be cool (other Titans too) but i stay with my opinion that the NTT team should be the core group who allow the greatest potential from multiple points of view. If they have good writers and the same free reign and high status (and even personal relations) from Wolfman and Perez era.

[Aahz]

No ofense but its silly to say they can't tell anymore stories with NTT and their established villains. Its like complaining that you can't tell anymore stories with a JL made of Superman, Batman, WW, Aquaman and so on, or with villains such as Joker, Darkseid, Luthor and whatever, because those were also done in the past.

The problem is that the NTT don't have many villains that are as good as Joker, Darkseid or Luthor.
Their bast villain by far was probaly Deathstroke, but he has become a somewhat sucessfull solo character.

Most of their other major villains are not particularly reusable, and just lack any really developed characters with a personality.
HIVE is just a relativity generic evil organisation, without anything that makes them somehow stand out.
The Church of Blood is barely better, and that they have a different leader in every incarnation and not much consistency doesn't really help.
The Wildebeast Society has a unique look, but no clear goals or any members who have even names.

Trigon is ore a natural force than a person.

And I don't think anyone wants to read about raven or Jericho becoming evil ever again.

And apart from that you have basically only the the Fearsome Five, and the Brotherhood of Evil (who are iirc originally Doom Patrol villains) and maybe Mister Twister (who is also not that great).

The Titans really need new and better villains.

[Dred]

Well, yes, bringing Raven, Starfire, BB and Cyborg not just that fixed the TT but pushed them right on top, among the most successful comics of that era, in general, not just for DC. Also made the basis for their big success in cartoons and now live series. I like the other Titans too and I will be more than OK for them to join the team from time to time but yes, they don't bring as much on the table as the original NTT ones



Ascended offered a quite good reply actually, but I will go a bit more detailed

I won't say Dick and Donna were the most important by far. Maybe on some moments, surely not always. Raven, Starfire etc definitely had their moments too, especially at first when the NTT were formed (by Raven, basically) and established their new status in DC (which wasn't anymore the teen sidekicks of JL but a combination of original characters and few former sidekicks moving away from their mentors shadow, all of them already young adults by now).

Trigon (and by extension Raven) had put the Titans on top as an A team as powerful as the JL. He is one of the most powerful characters in DC and dealing with him successfuly had shown that Titans can be at least as good as the JL (who were mostly irrelevant in the fight against him) when they have to face such huge threat levels. Starfire KOing WW or Raven taking down the JL were also moments who established that Titans not just that don't necessary need to look for JL help at every corner and in such big problems but they can be just as powerful (or even superior) to them.

Then as I said, if and when they bring back together the NTT they also need to bring back that spirit and their previous status from W and P era. If you bring them just to polish the boots of JL or wash the Batmobil and do some JL less important errands it won't work. If you downplay or dumbdown their villains to not upset some scale that make JL look better when fight their own it will also won't work, regardless which members you use for the Titans



I already said why the later NTT reunions didn't worked quite as good as the original. Also Raven didn't take over Trigon throne, she had get evil, wanted to take over Earth and main DC universe and that was resolved in the same couple issues by her turning back herself to her good side. Then just few issues later the NTT were broken again however and nothing could have develop more, obviously.
What I thought of, inspired by Ascended post too (didn't remembered it was him) was that she take the throne of his underworld realms, but in secret, without telling anyone about and still playing along as Titans member. I think that will open more possibilities for various story arcs on the long run.

About power levels, well, Donna is a powerhouse, I agree, but she is at best close to Starfire. Wally is great, I will definitley be OK to come back, if possible. Garth, no ofence but is not anywhere near Raven, neither as magic neither as potential for stories. Steel can at least partially replace Cyborg as the tech guy, or girl in this case

I get you like more the Fab 5, and I am ok with them joining the team from time to time, that will be cool (other Titans too) but i stay with my opinion that the NTT team should be the core group who allow the greatest potential from multiple points of view

I don't think the presence of the rest of the known NTT cast itself is what catapulted NTT. Those characters have not and do not save any comic they're all apart of since. I think you call a spade a spade and realize it was just Wolfman and Perez who struck hot at the right time with the right opening. Cyborg/BB/Raven/Starfire are not the formula for success and have not been elsewhere since NTT.

Dick is certainly the most important character in NTT. Everyone gets their moments, but Dick is the leader, the consistent focus of the narrative (both point of view and storytelling and action) and his character arc is the major throughline of the series. Starfire's attached to him at the hip in the story and it sure needed him more than it needed her.

Power level is not an argument. It has nothing to do with anything. Wally beat the entire JL a few months ago. Prometheus could beat the JL. Starfire is no Superman and Raven is no Green Lantern. I've already pointed out how they've reused Trigon half a dozen times and it has never done a bit for the franchise. It's a tired, old story beat that is beyond played out.

Donna isn't "At best close to Starfire." Whoever is more powerful is dependent on the writer. Garth's magic is literally whatever the writer wants it to be because it is magic. I don't think you get my point. This is not a versus argument. This is a writer's authority argument. A writer can make any character as powerful as they want given slight bending of what is already there. Dick can outsmart the entire Titans team and beat them, Wally could knock them all out before a synapse could fire, Raven could use her soul magic to disable all of them, Starfire could do a big blast that hits everyone, etc etc etc. Everyone is as powerful as the situation desires them to be. Anyone can beat up the JL. Raven and Starfire are not unique in this case.

This isn't me just talking about the fab five, this is me denouncing the idea that putting the NTT crew back together fixes anything. It never has and that is what they've been doing with the franchise for decades. Over and over. It's the least creative, least successful, least unique idea imaginable for the Titans. This is not an argument of potential -- that is a mine that has been stripped several times over. This thread is called Pitch a Direction: Titans. If your direction is the New Teen Titans, then that direction is backwards. You can certainly say that about the Fab Five, but at least the Fab Five had a neat hook before editorial crushed it.

[Ascended]

I get you like more the Fab 5, and I am ok with them joining the team from time to time, that will be cool (other Titans too) but i stay with my opinion that the NTT team should be the core group who allow the greatest potential from multiple points of view

If you have to do a reunion, you need to include Wally. He's got a bigger fanbase than all of the other characters combined (except Nightwing) and is one of the few exceptions of a Titan actually progressing and getting better after the initial NTT era. He's one of the only victories the IP can even halfass claim that isn't thirty years old.

I'm fairly certain that including Hawk and Dove will actually pull sales down, though I have no concrete evidence.

[Dred]

The problem with Wally is, every moment he is in the Titans is a reminder that he was demoted in favor of his superior predecessor. His entire purpose in the JL was talking about how much he'd grown and earned a right and "graduated" from the minor leagues. As much as I love him, all he'll ever bring to Titans is a reminder to everyone of the problem everyone here acknowledges exists with the Titans: They're the crappy B-team who can't cut it with the real big boys. Sad as it is, DC's spitting on Wally spits on everyone he associates with. Everyone knows Wally is only on the Titans because he got kicked out of the JL for someone """""better"""""

It's why he didn't survive the new direction Abnett went with. Guy is just a load of baggage.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't. Because they've done exactly that -- well not exactly, but the 90s Titans series had Dick, Wally, Starfire, and Cyborg on it and still saw the same issues. The magic isn't in having no sidekicks, because the two most important characters in Wolfman and Perez's run were Dick and Donna by far (I know you're putting the Trigon arc on a pedastal but NTT had a lot more issues than that). Lilith, the unofficial sixth of the fab five, was also a semi frequent member. Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy and Cyborg have all been on teams together in various incarnations and that has not fixed anything. And Cyborg is also off limits on the JL now, and that will not be changing for some years given the state of the movies.

While Dick and Donna were arguably the leads of NTT, I wouldn't say they were the leads "by far." Yeah, there were more than just the Trigon arcs, but the other arcs starred Starfire, Gar, and Vic in many of them, and Raven was a heavily featured character even when dad wasn't present.

And The Judas Contract, the major storyline, had the biggest impact on Gar more than anybody.

Lilith was semi-frequent, but nobody really talks about her as a selling point the way they do the others. Not surprising since she was a bit player in the two main arcs she was featured in with Trigon and Thia and the latter also involved her lameass stalker/boyfriend Azrael.

The point isn't that being former sidekicks ruins everything. Otherwise NTT would not have worked because it heavily relied on those characters. It's more likely NTT was a flash in the pan due to timing, standout talent, and editorial support.

It heavily relied on three of them, but not just them. Not more so than the other characters. And Wally spent the series being the biggest wet blanket before being written out. So they really only relied heavily on Dick and Donna, and then Dick became Nightwing and (at least was the intention at the time) cut ties with the Batman franchise. It's success was due to all of those things you mentioned, but it heavily relied upon three new characters who were not League liaisons and the new stories, locations and characters/villains their presence generated.

Young Justice, which you just mentioned, is an outside media incarnation of the Teen Titans. It's clearly based on the franchise and its members despite making its own changes. Like ignoring a lot of the NTT cast, amusingly!

The general audience is not going to know that the general DCU show they are watching that mixes several generations is based on the Titans franchise because the word "Titans" is not in the title. It's more of an amalgamation of Titans, YJ (a separate franchise, and separate it should have remained in the comics), the JL (the Team being so associated with the League is not good for the Titans), and now the Outsiders.

And it doesn't seem to be ignoring the NTT cast for much longer.

Raven's current comic has implied that Arella is still alive. I'm not sure if Wolfman has done anything with that plotline yet.

Good to know. Thanks!

[Ascended]

The problem with Wally is, every moment he is in the Titans is a reminder that he was demoted in favor of his superior predecessor. His entire purpose in the JL was talking about how much he'd grown and earned a right and "graduated" from the minor leagues. As much as I love him, all he'll ever bring to Titans is a reminder to everyone of the problem everyone here acknowledges exists with the Titans: They're the crappy B-team who can't cut it with the real big boys. Sad as it is, DC's spitting on Wally spits on everyone he associates with. Everyone knows Wally is only on the Titans because he got kicked out of the JL for someone """""better"""""

It's why he didn't survive the new direction Abnett went with. Guy is just a load of baggage.

Everything you're saying applies to the entire Titans IP. Which helps prove how damaged it is. And Wally will still bring more sales and attention than all the rest of them together except Dick.

Dont get me wrong, Im not in favor of a reunion, whether Wally gets and invite or not. Like Ive been saying, those dont work and they've become toxic. But if you do one, it'll benefit the book to include him.

And Abnett is the reason Wally (or anyone else) didnt survive Abnett.

[king81992]

The problem is that the NTT don't have many villains that are as good as Joker, Darkseid or Luthor.
Their bast villain by far was probaly Deathstroke, but he has become a somewhat sucessfull solo character.

Most of their other major villains are not particularly reusable, and just lack any really developed characters with a personality.
HIVE is just a relativity generic evil organisation, without anything that makes them somehow stand out.
The Church of Blood is barely better, and that they have a different leader in every incarnation and not much consistency doesn't really help.
The Wildebeast Society has a unique look, but no clear goals or any members who have even names.

Trigon is ore a natural force than a person.

And I don't think anyone wants to read about raven or Jericho becoming evil ever again.

And apart from that you have basically only the the Fearsome Five, and the Brotherhood of Evil (who are iirc originally Doom Patrol villains) and maybe Mister Twister (who is also not that great).

The Titans really need new and better villains.

DC should flesh out the villains that the Titans already have and poach villains from other character's rogue galleries(lets be honest, there are a lot of villains who aren't being used in their respective franchises).

Fearsome Five- They have a clear motivation and goals but lack personality. Its really weird, they have personality in the cartoons but mostly come off as cardboard cutouts in the comics. Give them personality ad maybe expand the roster to the Terrible Ten or something.

HIVE- Give them a leader and an agenda. Also give the leader a personality and a quirky miniboss squad. It goes without saying, give the miniboss squad personality as well. HIVE's miniboss squad should be based around metahumans and technology.

The Church of Blood- They have a clear leader but at times their agenda is unclear. Do they want to manipulate vulnerable people into a life of crime, are they Trigon's cult or some combination of both? Brother Blood is the leader, Sister Blood is the second in command and they have a miniboss squad. Miniboss squad should be cult themed, use characters who are psychic, magic or have some connection to cults(the fire lady from WW franchise could work her, I think she's called Zara). Give them personality.

Wildbeest Society- I don't even know how to retool these guys. I'm not even sure what their endgame was supposed to be.

Retool Harvest(simplify this man and drop all the time travel nonsense) and Lord Choas(retcon his origins hard, make him an ancient evil that got woken up). Give them henchmen and goals.