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  1. #61
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelinaK12 View Post
    Attachment 78687
    Flamebird by Inkydandy on tumblr
    This is more like the design I've been thinking of, but I want to get rid of the fire-wielding novelty. Leave that for Firefly and someone stupid enough to run around with tanks of combustible materials on their person.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I've seen that and I like it, so will look forward to a new one. Not a lot of characters have the brown or earth tones and I think they are a welcome change.

  3. #63
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    For years, when I'm not busy with other worthless pursuits, I try to figure, in my mind, a way to configure the Wayne/Kane family relationships so that Kate, and Bette are 2nd cousins to Bruce, rather than first. To some degree, in most families, those distinctions are not urgently important; cousins are cousins, of course.

    I do this for the more realistic approach; that they can be related, but not as specifically close. Here goes:

    Seemingly Roderick Kane is Martha Kane's father. Canon, accepted. What if he had a brother, Nathan or Nathaniel? This person would not be the same Nathan who is deemed to be Martha's brother, Roderick's son (who goes on to marry Kathy Kane, the first Batwoman). So it would not be unusual in this family for children to be named after other adults. Martha's mother's name is Mary Elizabeth, which is also Bette's real name (I think?).
    Perhaps Nathan is older than Roderick. He has twin sons, or two sons, Jacob (Kate's father) and I'll call him Phillip, the brother, whether twin or not (but I prefer twin, since twins run in families)
    - - - so this set of cousins, Nathan, Martha, Jacob and "Phillip" are actually raised together in the Kane mansion, and mostly think of themselves as siblings. Perhaps not unusual given being raised together, and rich. (let's say older/elder Nathan has died or is somehow out of the picture and Roderick is the head and treats his brothers kids as his own.

    Voila! Martha, Jacob and Phillips children are now, actually 2nd cousins to each other.

    In addition, we know that Nathan the younger and Kathy Kane did not have children, but what if there was a previous relationship or marriage and their were children? Now we also have fodder for another long lost cousin showing up too.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    For die hards, of course we could consider that Jacob and brother were orphaned (of course, this is Gotham and they're the Kanes!) and Roderick 'adopted' them.

    Thus they are legal siblings to Martha, as well as cousins.

  5. #65
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    For years, when I'm not busy with other worthless pursuits, I try to figure, in my mind, a way to configure the Wayne/Kane family relationships so that Kate, and Bette are 2nd cousins to Bruce, rather than first. To some degree, in most families, those distinctions are not urgently important; cousins are cousins, of course.
    I always have to decide what to do about money. In the first 'Tec comics, it seemed like Jacob married money, rather than having any of his own, but I don't know if that held true later, as I quit reading.

    Like you, I have tried to distance Kate and Bruce because for so much history, she had no part in his childhood (as current version didn't exist).

    I do have an idea of Jacob the son of Roderick's brother, as well. Estranged, quite likely, as Roderick is very unpleasant. And Kate never has anything to do with that side of the family until she's an adult and she meets them after Jacob marries into the Gotham social set. In my set up, Jacob was an only child.

    Generally speaking, fraternal twins are much more likely to run in families than identical twins.

    I'm tempted to keep the other Kane siblings for Martha, not Jacob, as they were made for her. I know some have issues with that, since Alfred raised Bruce, but I like the version where the first Batfamily is Bruce and Dick and Alfred joins third. Nathan is the eldest brother who refused to do what father wanted and married Kathy. His existence is negotiable to me. Philip is the brother that did as he was told and abandoned his dreams to run the company. A good man, though, unlike his modern counterpart. Youngest brother also joined business, but didn't mind it, and fathered Bette.

    I know I'm having Bette and Kate more distantly related, but Bette just wasn't part of Kate's story when she was introduced, IIRC, and I'm not sure if she has a place in Kate's life before adulthood. At least, if you keep Kate premiering later, when Dick was already Nightwing for ages, as she was when introduced in 2006.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-30-2019 at 07:35 AM.

  6. #66
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post

    I know I'm having Bette and Kate more distantly related, but Bette just wasn't part of Kate's story when she was introduced, IIRC, and I'm not sure if she has a place in Kate's life before adulthood. At least, if you keep Kate premiering later, when Dick was already Nightwing for ages, as she was when introduced in 2006.
    I think Bette shows up in Kate's story during 'Elegy', and she is not revealed to be the/former adventuress, but rather a cousin who really likes/admires Kate (not sure why, Kate seems to always be annoyed with her in this story).

    Creators were going for the female version of Bats and Robin, I suspect, but with the twists that showed up.

    So any part in K's life, is mostly a retcon, you're right.

    I'm more of an advocate for Bette because of her incredible long but oft ignored history. At any rate,

    any look at Bruce, Kate, Bette being 2nd cousins (and to each other as in kate and bette in your view, perhaps) implies that their parents or one half of them (father, mother?) are cousins. 2nd cousins are the children of cousins, so the challenge for me is to come up with a way that shows that.

    I'm not against Bette and Kate only being 2nd cousins, and this would explain the less-ness of B in K's story.

    There was a time (early teens) when I was closer to some 2nd cousins.

  7. #67
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    2nd cousins are the children of cousins, so the challenge for me is to come up with a way that shows that.
    Not sure by description if you mean child of one's first cousin ( first cousins once removed) or children of two first cousins (second cousins). Probably the latter - it seems to match your description of family relationships, and is correctly second cousins.

    A and B are first cousins. A's child and B's child are second cousin's. A and B's child are first cousins once removed. That's Kara and Jon Kent. I see people call them second cousins a bit. Understandable; I was well into adulthood before I learned the difference.

    So yours would have Kate and Bruce second cousins (Martha and Jacob being first cousins). I guess you are having Bette either OlderNathan's daughter or granddaughter, so first cousin or first cousin once removed to Kate.

    Mine would have had Kate and Bruce second cousins (Martha and Jacob being first cousins). Kate and Bette second cousins (Martha's brother and Jacob first cousins). Bette and Bruce first cousins, but with a big age difference, so they don't interact in that fashion.

    I've also considered going old school with Jacob unrelated to Martha, and Bette related to Kate in some fashion, and not related to Bruce. Bette would be born before Beth died, so them both being named after great grandma or whatnot would not be strange/painful. This would fit the timeline of Kate early 30s when introduced, when Bruce is early 40s (though that's another reason for them not to be close, even if they are first cousins, I guess).

    I think the only way to have Bette as Bat-girl with Kate-not-Kathy is bringing them back to early entry, and I find that a very problematic thing to do, since they were basically forgotten for such a long time. A later entry works better for me, though I can see how big Bette fans might not like that.

    Also, do we have any indications on Bette's religion? Was she revealed as Jewish after Kate was created? Because I know early (1940s) Bruce was a cultural Christian, at least, and I don't think any indication of Jewishness in his maternal family came until late in history (as an homage to Kane or Finger?), though I think at least one of them said they envisioned him as a WASP. Anyway, the point is whether someone converted into Judaism or Christianity and when. I think there's something "safer" in going from majority to minority in that readers don't get the feeling of their cultural identity being extinguished, but maybe I'm being over sensitive in that. Or, of course, a character might be born to two parents of different religions, neither of whom converted.

    I understand that Kate wasn't originally intended to be related to Bruce, rather simply being a re-invention of Kathy Kane before she got retconned back in as a separate character. Is this correct? If so, when was relationship to Bruce established?

  8. #68
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Wow! You've given this a bit of thought.

    I don't know specifically when Bruce became her cousin. I think it was around the new 52, possibly Batwoman # 0.

    I don't know that Bette's religion was established so we could think 'cultural christian' as you say. If Kanes are more drawn to Jewish practice, than possibly Bette and others are non-observant jews. I think it comes from Kate's mother's side, so it may have nothing to do with Kanes.

  9. #69
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Since this is Bette's thread - does everyone like her somewhere around Dick's age, or do you prefer her younger? A child or adult when she begins heroing?

    Are there any peer heroes that you'd prefer she maintain a relationship with?

    Does anyone prefer her apprenticing to an old-style Kathy Kane (even if Kate becomes Batwoman later)? In this scenario, she could have been doing the hero thing years before Kate started.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I like Bette being close to Dick's age and I like the whole dynamic with one being Nightwing and one being Flamebird. I think someone started this because she was the first Bat-girl, and as Dick changed to NW, they wanted to do something similar. But it got lost in the '80s/'90s silly stuff, perhaps.

    I often felt that her needing to be apprentice to Kate was a little wrong:

    She was already considered acrobatic as Bat-girl
    She trained with the first Batwoman.
    We can infer that she received other training from Bruce, since the 4 of them (Robin, Bw, BM and her) were "the Bat-family" of their time.

    She seems to have lost this back story as she changed to Flamebird, though occasionally it was mentioned "Bat Girl? Been there, done that!" she says when she fights Cassandra Cain, Batgirl.

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Today, Bette would be receiving her class ring as part of Ring Weekend.
    Mega fan of: Helena Bertinelli (pre-52), Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Guardians of the Galaxy, Secret Six
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  12. #72
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    She should be around Dick's age, which is where her fascination with him comes in. Not too much younger or older, but around his age. I also liked in the original Teen Titans run, she started her own Titans on the west coast. I think that would be a cool idea for her to form her own Titans as a way of "competing" with Dick's group of Titans in that she emulates everything he does.

  13. #73
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OBrianTallent View Post
    She should be around Dick's age, which is where her fascination with him comes in. Not too much younger or older, but around his age. I also liked in the original Teen Titans run, she started her own Titans on the west coast. I think that would be a cool idea for her to form her own Titans as a way of "competing" with Dick's group of Titans in that she emulates everything he does.
    If I was writing for Bette I would definitely have her kinda competing/trying for Dick's attention.

    I think that her caring so much of Dick really is an important part of her character. Not in an overly stalker kind of way but as an ideal/hero to strive for. Bette has a hopefulness and enthusiasm for superheroes that is refreshing to read.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

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  14. #74
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I like Bette being close to Dick's age and I like the whole dynamic with one being Nightwing and one being Flamebird. I think someone started this because she was the first Bat-girl, and as Dick changed to NW, they wanted to do something similar. But it got lost in the '80s/'90s silly stuff, perhaps.

    I often felt that her needing to be apprentice to Kate was a little wrong:

    She was already considered acrobatic as Bat-girl
    She trained with the first Batwoman.
    We can infer that she received other training from Bruce, since the 4 of them (Robin, Bw, BM and her) were "the Bat-family" of their time.

    She seems to have lost this back story as she changed to Flamebird, though occasionally it was mentioned "Bat Girl? Been there, done that!" she says when she fights Cassandra Cain, Batgirl.
    I think for me, the issue is I really don't like there being both a Kathy Kane and a Kate Kane.

    So, for me the difficulty is either keeping the Dick the dynamic or keeping the Kate/Kathy dynamic - if I keep her starting when Dick is young, I can't keep her working with Kate in start (unless I make Kate start much earlier). I don't mind her being Dick's age, but starting because she has a crush on Robin is a big no-go to me, even if it was used post-COIE. Originally, of course, she became a crimefighter because she figured out her aunt was Batwoman and wanted to be just like her. Frankly, I didn't like how the crush element played out originally either - she looks bad in every execution they've done, IMO.

    I agree, making her apprentice to Kate when she'd been heroing longer than Kate did not work.

    As with many characters, her original post-COIE backstory later regained elements of the pre-COIE life. As far as I can tell, originally, as seen in post #1 of this thread and from Who's Who in the DC universe #2 (Sept 1990), Bette started as Flamebird, there was no Kathy. She'd been a fan, sending Robin letters (where to - don't know), making her own Robin costume, and started training for her own exploits when young. He never answered letters so she became Flamebird, and then started Titans West to get his attention. I would say I don't know who thought that was a good idea in the 1980s, except that in her early appearances, she very much seems to have been intentionally written as a ditz. Very sad. Not that I especially like the writing of her in her very first appearances, either. Later her Bat-Girl history seems to have been re-added, but I don't know when, since I haven't read much of '90s Bette, not liking the characterization in what I did read.

    I don't agree, though, that in the silver age we can infer she got training from Bruce. I don't think that is at all indicated in the comics. I've read all the ones with her, though not all the ones with Kathy. Also didn't see anything to say Dick was trained by Kathy. Of course, Barbara also didn't originally get training from Bruce (which I much preferred to later version).

  15. #75
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Points taken.

    Perhaps we can view Kathy as Kathy 'Webb' Kane. Her reinvented back story works for me; how she became a Kane, essentially.

    Silver Age, or not, I cannot see Bruce letting Bette be a part of their team without some amount of his mentoring. (but, in your favor, Betty often just showed up and was a secret/surprise - no one knew she was doing it perhaps. So that added to her eventual 'stalker-ish' element.

    The '80s did her no justice, but I mostly missed that myself.

    Since most things end up being revised and retconned, I am not unhappy with how Bette gets retooled in modern Batwoman, other than making her too untrained. In the Cutter story she ended up calling on her own skills (with Kate kinda greasing those wheels) - but the point was, she has capability.

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