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  1. #76
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Silver Age, or not, I cannot see Bruce letting Bette be a part of their team without some amount of his mentoring. (but, in your favor, Betty often just showed up and was a secret/surprise - no one knew she was doing it perhaps. So that added to her eventual 'stalker-ish' element.
    I can't agree. IMO, he has no more authority over Betty than Kathy has over Dick. And besides, didn't he and Superman do a partner switchup (Batman working with Jimmy and Superman with Robin) - Jimmy wasn't trained. And if Batman respects Batwoman's abilities, then he should think her training of Kathy is sufficient.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    As with many characters, her original post-COIE backstory later regained elements of the pre-COIE life. As far as I can tell, originally, as seen in post #1 of this thread and from Who's Who in the DC universe #2 (Sept 1990), Bette started as Flamebird, there was no Kathy. She'd been a fan, sending Robin letters (where to - don't know), making her own Robin costume, and started training for her own exploits when young. He never answered letters so she became Flamebird, and then started Titans West to get his attention. I would say I don't know who thought that was a good idea in the 1980s, except that in her early appearances, she very much seems to have been intentionally written as a ditz. Very sad.
    Honestly I don't really get why they kept her in the first place.
    They erased Kathy who had far more appearances than Betty.
    They took away her status as the first Bat-Girl, and as Dick's first reoccurring love interest.
    And she was barely used in the years before and after COIE.
    So why keep the character around, when you retcon out everything that made her relevant?

    I mean Titans West can't really be the reason that team existed for irrc one story arc, erasing Bette wouldn't really had any influence, and technically you even completely erase the Titans West and wouldn't have changed much.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I can't agree. IMO, he has no more authority over Betty than Kathy has over Dick. And besides, didn't he and Superman do a partner switchup (Batman working with Jimmy and Superman with Robin) - Jimmy wasn't trained. And if Batman respects Batwoman's abilities, then he should think her training of Kathy is sufficient.
    And keep in mind that Batman was also initially not exactly a fan of Kathy being a crime fighter, her first appearance basically ended with Bruce trying to force her to retire.

  4. #79
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I can only speak for me. The characters of Nightwing and Flamebird are long time and from many types of versions.

    If you erase/stop using Bette, you can trust me, I will bet money on it, that someone will eventually create a new character to be Flamebird.

    When Dick was not using the name, a short while before the new 52, there were other characters playing the parts of NW and FB. They were from Kandor or some such. These are nearly inalienable concepts that will always be in the DC verse.

    The problem seems, that DC editorial does not want to use Bette for FB. Now my theories on that would be a longer post.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I can only speak for me. The characters of Nightwing and Flamebird are long time and from many types of versions.

    If you erase/stop using Bette, you can trust me, I will bet money on it, that someone will eventually create a new character to be Flamebird.
    I'm pretty sure she didn't became Flambird untill after COIE, and even appart from that what is the point in using Flamebird without any real connection to any incarnation of Nightwing?

    I'm just wondering why they erased Kathy but kept her. I thought one big reason for COIE was to streamline the universe and reduce the "continuity snarl". But stuff like keeping characters like her, Power Girl or both incarnations of the Hawks around kind of did the opposite.

  6. #81
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I'm just wondering why they erased Kathy but kept her. I thought one big reason for COIE was to streamline the universe and reduce the "continuity snarl". But stuff like keeping characters like her, Power Girl or both incarnations of the Hawks around kind of did the opposite.
    I agree. It's not like they were using her at the time. I think she had 5 appearances in the first 10 years of post-COIE that she existed (1989 to 1999). And it's not like she was heavily used character before COIE, either - maybe a dozen appearances in 20 years?

  7. #82
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I have tried to distance Kate and Bruce because for so much history, she had no part in his childhood (as current version didn't exist).

    Bette just wasn't part of Kate's story when she was introduced, IIRC, and I'm not sure if she has a place in Kate's life before adulthood. At least, if you keep Kate premiering later, when Dick was already Nightwing for ages, as she was when introduced in 2006.
    I suspect it's all to make the characters more marketable. For a casual Batman fan, saying Batwoman is Batman's cousin is probably more intriguing than just saying she's another bat-character. Then the same thing with Flamebird, most casual audience wouldn't care about Falembird, but if they know Batwoman (who was at least established somewhat by the time Bette was reintroduced), then Flamebird is Batwoman's sidekick - now she's more interesting.

    I don't know what might happen with Bette, since they seem to be trying to distance her from Batwoman, as she doesn't appear by Kate's side anymore. Which is a pity because I like Bette, but most of Kate's supporting cast apart from Jacob (and even he wasn't used in her last solo) seem to have been tossed aside. Renee came back though.

    The cousin angle with Bruce isn't going away anytime soon, if anything they seem to be leaning more into it. And yeah, the Kate and Bruce history is a mess. In 'Tec they had them look like they are only about a year apart in age, but Kate used to be 32, and in the last solo was stated to be 27. I doubt Bruce is 28 or 29, so the age gap now has to be bigger. He seems, to me anyway, to act more like an older cousin towards her than one of nearly the same age.

    Since parts of the Supergirl show apparently influenced changes to the comic, it will be interesting to see if the same happens with Batwoman, and since a version of Bette is in the show perhaps that could mean good things for her comic counterpart.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I can only speak for me. The characters of Nightwing and Flamebird are long time and from many types of versions.

    If you erase/stop using Bette, you can trust me, I will bet money on it, that someone will eventually create a new character to be Flamebird.

    When Dick was not using the name, a short while before the new 52, there were other characters playing the parts of NW and FB. They were from Kandor or some such. These are nearly inalienable concepts that will always be in the DC verse.

    The problem seems, that DC editorial does not want to use Bette for FB. Now my theories on that would be a longer post.
    I personally would like to see Conner taking over the role as Flamebird, speaking about another character taking over the mantle of flamebird.

  9. #84
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    I personally would like to see Conner taking over the role as Flamebird, speaking about another character taking over the mantle of flamebird.
    After COIE, I, a long time reader (late '60s) quit reading them, for the most part. I was not terribly into FB from the post COIE as I had little reading there. But when I discovered the way she was retconned (from 'Betty"), I did not care much for that version of her. But I was mostly not reading any DC after COIE and well into the 2000s era: New 52.

    It was only when even years later when I read 'Elegy' and realized that someone thought more of her, saw her value, etc, that I started reading DC again; mostly the Bat titles of Batwoman, Batgirl, Nightwing and Red Hood. I eventually lost interest in all but Batwoman, but it changed with the creator changes and bitterly followed it to the end of her first volume. I hated how they reinvented Bette, again, as 'Hawkfire'.

    Several years after that Batwoman came back into play in Detective and also her second volume. So I read those, but the use of Bette was way below par. As if only an afterthought.

    I'll probably just look in once in a while to see if Bette shows up, but I'm mostly not reading DC again. I'll read Batwoman where I find her.

    So I'm a snob I guess. I'll only care if Bette gets proper treatment.

    there is NO ONE who deserves to be Flamebird more, than Bette, if only because her original intended creation was as

    Bat-girl , an interest for Robin, who was Dick Grayson at that time.

    As Robin became Nightwing, so too, did Bette eventually become Flamebird. Because *that* intention was to keep their silver age roots aligned.

    So if no one needs or cares about that, so be it, but I'm not interested in Bette not being the real part of the DC universe that she deserves to me.

  10. #85
    Mighty Member Oberon's Avatar
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    So I guess I have to say, this is an appreciation page for Bette, and if you only have comments against her, or are not interested in her as a character, than you shouldn't be posting here.

  11. #86
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    I personally would like to see Conner taking over the role as Flamebird, speaking about another character taking over the mantle of flamebird.
    Why would Conner become Flamebird?
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  12. #87
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oberon View Post
    I can only speak for me. The characters of Nightwing and Flamebird are long time and from many types of versions.

    If you erase/stop using Bette, you can trust me, I will bet money on it, that someone will eventually create a new character to be Flamebird.

    When Dick was not using the name, a short while before the new 52, there were other characters playing the parts of NW and FB. They were from Kandor or some such. These are nearly inalienable concepts that will always be in the DC verse.

    The problem seems, that DC editorial does not want to use Bette for FB. Now my theories on that would be a longer post.
    Keep in mind that those were just from New Krypton arc, the "Flamebird" died at the end of it and the "Nightwing" was de-aged and put in the phatom zone (I don't remember why he had to be put there, maybe he was dying), but yeah, if Dick and Bette aren't using those names, some other character probably will, either by making a stabilished character get them, like it could've happened with Jason if Dick was killed in Infinite Crisis (Or so I hear), or by just making new ones to have 'em, like in New Krypton, even if it's temporary

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I'm pretty sure she didn't became Flambird untill after COIE, and even appart from that what is the point in using Flamebird without any real connection to any incarnation of Nightwing?

    I'm just wondering why they erased Kathy but kept her. I thought one big reason for COIE was to streamline the universe and reduce the "continuity snarl". But stuff like keeping characters like her, Power Girl or both incarnations of the Hawks around kind of did the opposite.
    Yeah, she debuted as Flamebird in post-crisis, and that's shown to be before Dick became Nightwing, so she didn't become Flamebird because of him in-universe (Became a super hero because of him, sure, just didn't specificaly choose a name from Kryptonian stories because of him since she used it first in-universe).

    There's an issue of Superman, pretty sure it's in the arc that has Supes and Lois going to an alternate Krypton, which is how Krypto was introduced in post-crisis (Before Secret Origins' retcon), it at least mentions that both Nightwing and Flamebird were inspired by Kryptonian stories they heard from Supes, the question is how the hell Bette heard about it if she debuted as Flamebird, since talking with him isn't exactly the easiest thing to the point he's gonna tell you about Kryptonian stories.

  13. #88
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    There's an issue of Superman, pretty sure it's in the arc that has Supes and Lois going to an alternate Krypton, which is how Krypto was introduced in post-crisis (Before Secret Origins' retcon), it at least mentions that both Nightwing and Flamebird were inspired by Kryptonian stories they heard from Supes, the question is how the hell Bette heard about it if she debuted as Flamebird, since talking with him isn't exactly the easiest thing to the point he's gonna tell you about Kryptonian stories.
    I like to chalk this one up to just a random coincidence she picked that name

  14. #89
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Part of the issue is that Bette's relationship of trying to prove herself to Kate, that she can fight and is good enough to be a vigilante, is similar to Steph's relationship to Bruce. Bette came first, true, but Steph is better known. Then there is that they are both generally optimistic sidekicks who both happen to be blonde.

    In other words there is a bit too much overlap. I can't help but wonder if Steph may have been a reinvention of Bette, with no intention at the time of Bette returning, though I don't know the full comics history of either. Especially since at one point they have both been Bat-Girl/Batgirl.

    In order to both be differentiated from similar characters, and be more interesting, Bette needs to have more to her than the current version - where her goals seem to revolve around proving herself to her cousin Kate. I hope that they do interesting things with her television incarnation (Mary Hamilton), and the comics take some inspiration from that.

  15. #90
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    In other words there is a bit too much overlap. I can't help but wonder if Steph may have been a reinvention of Bette, with no intention at the time of Bette returning, though I don't know the full comics history of either.
    Bette first reappeared in 1989 (though as I said, very underused), and Steph not until 1992. Steph also had very little relationship with Batman at first. Yeah, he told her to quit, but she didn't interact with him often - am not positive, but don't think she had much interaction with Batman until at least the late 1990s (early 2000s probably more likely, IMO). She was a supporting character for Tim. I believe Dixon also said he originally intended her to be a one-arc character for 'Tec comics 647-649. She didn't reappear again for a year and half.

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